Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[Kmd4390]

I didn't give reasons yet at the time because I was just starting out and wasn't looking to convince anyone yet.

OK, well since then you have blindly defended camn (although she has performed behvaior you claim is scummy), said you are happy with your vote for me (because you think I was being hypocritical when I was not), said my case is crap (when you did not understand it), but still haven't given any reasons. Time to take the training wheels off - give some reasons. They don't even have to be good ones. I'm tired of people voting me for no reason.

And I'm tired of Battle Mage ignoring my post 378.

Know what I'm tired of? The blatant misrep that I apparently didn't understand the case. I've already said that I understood it, but happened to disagree. I went point-by-point to show why I disagree. And I didn't say Camn is scummy. I said she does things that would be scummy if it was anyone else (appearing not to scumhunt, going all-out against lurkers, buddying, etc). And if you think my vote on you is 100% based on you being hypocritical, you really haven't read my posts. TBH, I forgot about that until you mentioned it just now. You want to know why I'm voting you? As soon as I came in, my gut said you were scum. That's how I play. I voted based on that and you haven't done anything to convince me that I'm wrong.

Alex isnt even worth discussing at this point.

Why?

What if I don't have anything now?

Then there's no reason for your apparent suspicions on me. Why would you go for me tomorrow if you have no reason to think I'm scum?
Translation: It's scummy.

I can go back and find the reasons when I want to make a case.

No... I don't know what to think anymore. You've just opened a justification for everything to happen without being able to get leads from it. That's what WIFOM might cause.

If that's your argument, I just did the town a favor.

KMD... you think it's GIEFF and me together?

Yep.

KMD: From your experience...
What are Camn's town tells and what are her scum tells in general?

Um. I don't really know. She was scum in the last game I played with her, but I can't really think of anything she did differently. Let me go back and see why I ended up suspecting her there.

Ok, here is my initial post in THAT GAME saying why I suspected her:

Camn... Hmm. Camn. I was thinking about her play last night. It doesn't seem like her. Not as active. Not as ridiculously protown. Not as hard on lurkers. She did make her early "reads on everyone aka who is lurking" post. I always want to call her out for buddying up, but I've seen her do it way too many times as town, so I can ignore that. She layed a lazy vote on Myko and never really came back to that. She's said she suspects me, but not really why. She's put out weak attacks on VP and Llama. She said Llama needed scrutinty, but didn't really give any around the time she said it.

This really has me interested here:

Though I would LOVE to put SOMEBODY at L-1.. I don't really get scum from VP right now.
In fact, it would not surprise me at all to see VP, KMD, and Llama ALL be town...

I really am thinking NOW, that Mykonian, Zazie, and maybe Plum need some more pressure... but I understand that the deadline is going to be on top of us really soon.

She sets herself up to look good pretty much no matter who is lynched by saying she wouldn't be surprised to see VP, Llama, and myself all be town. Three players who SHE SUSPECTED until this post. And she's even come back to suspecting Llama.

Another thing about that post is who she names as scum. Two of those players have flipped town. The other, Myko, is someone who I think is town. Camn, what made you suspect Plum, Zazie, and Myko? Are you still suspicious of Myko? Hell, what had you suspicious of Llama, VP, and myself? What made you change your mind? And now, why are you back on Llama?

I'll mention that I was also scum in that game, but afat and I had assumed there was a second scum group, so my scumhunting attempts were genuine there.

While I disagree with policy lynching and revenge lurking, and even lurkerlynching depending on the situation, I guess I see your point.

I just don't think Sens exactly qualifies as any of these things.

ohhh... changing your mind now? First you speak in general to use it against me but now... you wiggle around it so you agree with Camn and still see me as scummy?

See the bolded. I agree with Camn in general, but not in this specific situation.

Because you do. Don't pretend it isn't the case. I figured that was the main benefit to inviting half the playerlist here-they all have some kind of association to you.

I did it to have an interesting game. Not so they wouldn't suspect me if I was scum...

Wait, there are people here who you invited to play? Just out of curiosity, who?

The whole buddying thing is losing strenght... Yeah, I'm buddying GIEFF and mastin according to everyone. Camn and KMD buddie themselves. KMD buddies SensFan. Sensfan buddies KMD, Camn and BM. Zach has buddied BM IIRC. Now BM buddies GIEFF.

I can see why you'd say I've buddied with Camn, but why Sens? Because I don't like your vote on him?

BM voted GIEFF even though he said that at least one fo Mastin and I were town.

Wait, am I missing something here? Why do you and Mastin have to be scum for GIEFF to be scum?

Battle Mage - who is in the buddy brigade?

it looks like:

Alex, Mastin, Hasdgfas, VP Baltar, Kairyuu

maybe: Debonair and Camn

The last 2 can confirm or deny knowing Alex before the game.

Perhaps more members lurk in the wings. Haha, this is like mafia within mafia.

BM

If the buddy brigade is people who knew Alex before the game, I'm part of it. I IC'd a newb game that Alex played. And I saw him again in Mafia 91. And I played in the Zwet game that Alex modded in Mish Mash.

[camn]

My scumhunting was genuine in that game, too. . . We knew there were two groups.
2-scumgroup games twist scum meta.

[GIEFF]

KMD, I am shocked to see that your points about camn in the game you linked seem quite similar to my own.

1. Not as hard on lurkers.
2. Not as ridiculously pro-town.
3. Changing her mind rapidly on who she suspects.
4. Setting herself up to look protown.
5. "Lazy" votes that she doesn't come back to.
6. Suspecting people without really saying why.

Do you disagree that a large number of the points you used to catch camn-scum in that game apply to this game? Even if just 2 or 3 of them apply, shouldn't that be enough to move camn out of your "obvtown" list?


Also, I never said you voted for me because I was hypocritical. I said you were HAPPY with your vote for me because I was hypocritical.

I just wanted to be clear that your vote with me is without reason. So when people demanding reasoning from others IGNORE your vote, then THEY are the ones being inconsistent.

[Yaw]

Vote Count:

Mastin (4): Zachrulez, Benmage, Debonair Danny DiPietro, camn
GIEFF (2): Kmd4390, jammer
Battle Mage (1): Mastin
SensFan (1): alexhans
VP Baltar (1): Battle Mage
camn (1): GIEFF
alexhans (1): VP Baltar
Cephrir (1): SpyreX

Not Voting: Cephrir, blackcatcontract, SensFan

8 to lynch

MOD: If Ceph doesn't post soon... would you consider replacing him? I've already replaced once into a large game because he was lurking: Mafia 91

Is this a prod request?

I don't intend to replace people without their consent unless they disappear completely.

[Kmd4390]

My scumhunting was genuine in that game, too. . . We knew there were two groups.
2-scumgroup games twist scum meta.

Well it's why I thought you were scum and.. you were. =/

KMD, I am shocked to see that your points about camn in the game you linked seem quite similar to my own.

1. Not as hard on lurkers.
2. Not as ridiculously pro-town.
3. Changing her mind rapidly on who she suspects.
4. Setting herself up to look protown.
5. "Lazy" votes that she doesn't come back to.
6. Suspecting people without really saying why.

*lurkers-lately, she just isn't.
*not ridiculously protown- why?
*changing her mind rapidly- where?
*setting herself up-where?
*lazy votes-where?
*suspecting people without giving reasons-where?

Do you disagree that a large number of the points you used to catch camn-scum in that game apply to this game? Even if just 2 or 3 of them apply, shouldn't that be enough to move camn out of your "obvtown" list?

No, because my read on her is town.

Also, I never said you voted for me because I was hypocritical. I said you were HAPPY with your vote for me because I was hypocritical.

Ok. This is true then.

I just wanted to be clear that your vote with me is without reason. So when people demanding reasoning from others IGNORE your vote, then THEY are the ones being inconsistent.

I've given plenty of reasons. Here, let me view myself in ISO and summarize what I've given:
-gut read
-stretched Camn's promise not to kill me by twisting her words to say she wouldn't lynch me
-kept asking about Camn's OMGUS with no intention of changing his opinion or any expectations that she'd change her answer
-pushing points JUST to make sure people see them
-Calls out appeal to emotion where it isn't there
-hypocracy
-crap case in post 398
-misrepping me by saying I don't understand the case
-bad argument about quote pyramids

[jammer]

Mod: See this as a prod request for Cephir, if Alex one doesn't count

No gieff, I don't feel like explaining everything that I think is weak about the cases. I need to refer to arguments you used against Mastin what plainly everyone ignored. And defending Camn and BM. Would be a big post, and I doubt what it would show. It isn't far from just the cases itself. I linked those becouse they seem to show your major points.

It has for a big part to do with pushing people hard with little things. And act like they are obv-scum becouse something unimportant. Like pressing Camn with the "I don't kill you KMD" slip. Little things that you didn't even put in your cases, who represent your big point.

[Benmage]

*lazy votes-where?
*suspecting people without giving reasons-where?

Vote: VP BALTHAR

Not a random vote.

I played a game with GIEFF once.
We were scum together.

He was brilliant as scum.

We should probably lynch him before endgame... regardless of anything that may happen between then and now.

(how is THAT for saying something scummy?!!?)

Segways into:

in fact...

unvote
Vote :GIEFF

Look at me .. 3rd vote on the wagon!
oops.. nope. 2nd vote. Darn.

UNVOTE
vote: Benmage

And

UNVOTE

Fielding this torrent of nonsense has totally derailed my plans with Benmage. I'll come back to him someday. Hopefully.

Well, show me how it's done, then, BIG GUY!
I will proxy my vote to you for the rest of the day. Sonce you are so awesome, your vote SHOULD count for double, right?!

Lets see how EPIC of a player you really are!

VOTE: MASTIN

Worst voter this game?

[Kmd4390]

I'll let Camn respond to that herself.

[camn]

What exactly do you mean? How do you rank "quality" of votes.. ?

And more importantly... are you saying it is

scummy

?
Because terms like "worst voter" don't have much meaning.
But since you don't even know what 'omgus' means.. I am not really sure YOU know what you mean.

In fact, looking back.. post 606 really has no meaning at all. It just adds more characters to the thread.

[camn]

Ah. Maybe I see you are responding to KMD?

If you look deeper, you will find I did indeed give reasons for each of my votes.... eventually.
Withholding those reasons initially was intentional.
I don't read KMD as thinking withholding reasons is scummy.. but more that NOT HAVING REASONS AT ALL is scummy, no?

ALSO.. I don't think forming a NON random vote in the RVS is "lazy", do you KMD?

[Kmd4390]

I don't read KMD as thinking withholding reasons is scummy.. but more that NOT HAVING REASONS AT ALL is scummy, no?

Witholding reasons is fine as long as they come out eventually.

ALSO.. I don't think forming a NON random vote in the RVS is "lazy", do you KMD?

Nope. I try to lay a serious vote as early as possible.

[camn]

So, it seems Bnmage's quotes really are NOT answers to your questions.. right KMD?
He fails at answering just like he fails at comprehension.

------------

Furthermore..... I would further argue that I am the most brilliant voter of this game.

Post #1 was a non-random vote. That is amazing by itself.

My initial reasoning on GIEFF STILL STANDS. I think he is probably too dangerous to have in endgame.

PLUS.. Benmage gets scummier by the post.
And I am STILL willing to proxy my vote to him, since he took it upon himself to get personal. I want to see Mastin's flip, since BenMage is so sure of his "skill".

[Kmd4390]

So, it seems Bnmage's quotes really are NOT answers to your questions.. right KMD?

They don't seem to be.

My initial reasoning on GIEFF STILL STANDS. I think he is probably too dangerous to have in endgame.

Don't you think he is town though? What was the initial reasoning?

[Benmage]

Ah. Maybe I see you are responding to KMD?

If you look deeper, you will find I did indeed give reasons for each of my votes.... eventually.

Yes I was responding to KmD. The votes are lazy in that they often don’t initially give reasoning. When/if they do, the reasoning in my opinion is rather weak.

Saying not a random vote when voting VP, is meaningless.

Your first vote on Gieff, is because he was too good as scum in a previous game….seriously…

You do “confirm” the vote on Gieff later. Which is good, but in my opinion that confirmation vote had weak reasoning in itself, but I left that out because it didn’t really relate to what I was pointing out for KmD.

You than vote for me for Zero (stated) reason. You unvote after a considerable amount of time without bothering to comment on the vote to begin with.

Now your vote has sat on Mastin, for what purpose…To please me??...geeze

Seems like a pretty poor/lazy voting scheme. And I clearly am not alone in this feeling as Gieff initially pointed it out.

Your pow-wow with KmD is null. You two agreeing on points holds no weight.

[Yaw]

Cephrir has been prodded.

[camn]

@KMD:

Initially it was that his scum-game was too good to let him live.
Now, additionally, it is that his TOWN-game is too POOR for him to be reliable in endgame.

Of course, this goes to the essence of my game. I really think my endgame-play is pretty strong.. partly because, as town OR scum, I try hard to ensure the survival of players I think I can really count on.. and the elimination of players I DON'T.

I catch hell for this sometimes.. but (attn:Gieff) I do it anyway! And I intend on doing it this game, just like every other game!

Essentially, I wold rather lynch a 70%townie that I think will mislynch in ENDGAME, than a 60%townie that I think will vote correct.

LET IT BE KNOWN:
I am in no way pushing the lynch of CONFIRMED TOWNIES.
Although I have a town-read on Geiff.. I could EASILY be wrong (it has happened!). . and to mitigate that risk, he should probably die someday. Or convince me of his ability to make the right decisions. (Which wouldn't be that hard, btw.)

@BENMAGE.

How many games have you played where the first vote was not a random or jokevote?
If I was indeed 'lazy' I could easily have jokevoted ANYONE.. but instead I took the time to take a stand.
You make so little sense it is incredible.
Also.. I intentionally withheld my reasoning, for certain effect.
How is this lazy?

And what does is a "poor voting scheme"? What does that even mean?
Please show me..... I learn at the feet of the master.

[GIEFF]

*lurkers-lately, she just isn't.
*not ridiculously protown- why?
*changing her mind rapidly- where?
*setting herself up-where?
*lazy votes-where?
*suspecting people without giving reasons-where?

Setting herself up to look good (i.e. pro-town) is exactly what my case at the top of page 22 is meant to demonstrate. I don't want to provoke camn or start more quote-wall wars by going into any more detail, but please read my posts about her as objectively as you can, and I think you will find a lot of these same points in them.

-gut read
-stretched Camn's promise not to kill me by twisting her words to say she wouldn't lynch me
-kept asking about Camn's OMGUS with no intention of changing his opinion or any expectations that she'd change her answer
-pushing points JUST to make sure people see them
-Calls out appeal to emotion where it isn't there
-hypocracy
-crap case in post 398
-misrepping me by saying I don't understand the case
-bad argument about quote pyramids

Many of these things I haven't done, the rest do not make me scummy, and

none

of them happened before you voted me, excepting your "gut-read" claim.

The quote pyramids thing was a joke, referencing my mistake last game in thinking you were scum because of them.

Although I have a town-read on Geiff.. I could EASILY be wrong (it has happened!). . and to mitigate that risk, he should probably die someday. Or convince me of his ability to make the right decisions. (Which wouldn't be that hard, btw.)

If you truly think my case on you is total crap, then it SHOULD be hard for me to convince you that I'm not a poor player as town. I've spent pages arguing it, and I believe you are the scummiest player in the game. If you think I believe this for garbage reasons, would unvoting you after all of that really make you think I was a better player?

This reads to me like a threat to stop voting you - am I reading it wrong?

[Kmd4390]

You do “confirm” the vote on Gieff later. Which is good, but in my opinion that confirmation vote had weak reasoning in itself, but I left that out because it didn’t really relate to what I was pointing out for KmD.

Are you saying you intentionally left it out to prove your point?

@KMD:

Initially it was that his scum-game was too good to let him live.
Now, additionally, it is that his TOWN-game is too POOR for him to be reliable in endgame.

I wouldn't lynch him for either reason.

Essentially, I wold rather lynch a 70%townie that I think will mislynch in ENDGAME, than a 60%townie that I think will vote correct.

That's fair.

[Benmage]

@BENMAGE.

How many games have you played where the first vote was not a random or jokevote?
If I was indeed 'lazy' I could easily have jokevoted ANYONE.. but instead I took the time to take a stand.
You make so little sense it is incredible.
Also.. I intentionally withheld my reasoning, for certain effect.
How is this lazy?

And what does is a "poor voting scheme"? What does that even mean?
Please show me..... I learn at the feet of the master.

Scheme wasn't the best word I suppose. Go with pattern or history.

The first vote would've been a fine RVS, but you declared that it wasn't random. You didn't make a stand, because you didn't put any thought or effort into it. You only stated it wasn't random...meaningless. Lazy in the sense of not explaining your position, not suggesting lazy in the sense of putting forth a meaningful vote(although in my opinion is was a weakass "meaningful" vote). As you would continue to do.

Intentionally withholding the information is such a cop-out. You let your vote sit on me with no response for a while. Just as you are doing with Mastin. Yet you go into these crazy side tangents.

[Kmd4390]

GIEFF:
Again, your sufficient-er case on Camn looks more like Camn being Camn more than Camn being scum.

You've done everything in my case. If you feel otherwise, say so. I'll show you where it was.

Yes, I know most of that came after my vote. Does that make it less scummy?

Yeah, I put the quote pyramid thing on there as a joke. XD

[Benmage]

You do “confirm” the vote on Gieff later. Which is good, but in my opinion that confirmation vote had weak reasoning in itself, but I left that out because it didn’t really relate to what I was pointing out for KmD.

Are you saying you intentionally left it out to prove your point?

No, because it wasn't related to the question at hand. Wherein I was merely illustrating a history of examples of lazy/poor votes or whatever it was that gieff stated.

[Benmage]

I believe you are the scummiest player in the game.

I’m finding her more and more scummy as the day progresses.

[Kmd4390]

You do “confirm” the vote on Gieff later. Which is good, but in my opinion that confirmation vote had weak reasoning in itself, but I left that out because it didn’t really relate to what I was pointing out for KmD.

Are you saying you intentionally left it out to prove your point?

No, because it wasn't related to the question at hand. Wherein I was merely illustrating a history of examples of lazy/poor votes or whatever it was that gieff stated.

But you were aware of later backing which makes the vote you quoted less lazy/poor.

[camn]

@GIEFF

No no.. not at all.
Vote me if you want.
But you finding some actual scum would go a long way to improving my outlook..

Plus... what do you think about the fact that not even ONE of these 14 other players has jumped on your case?
In fact, more than one has said it was not-so-good.

What does this mean?

Objectively, I would think (via the KMD Gambit) that scum would jump on a crap-case on a townie...... especially if it was presented well... so I could be scum.
Of course, if YOU are scum, and part of a 2-man team.. then that obviously WOULDN'T happen.

What other situations could explain 12-14ish townies, and 1-3ish scum, pretty much ignoring your case on me?

@KMD

I wouldn't lynch him for either reason.

Ah, but I

WOULD

That is what make me fun!

@BENMAGE

I hate to say this.. but maybe YOU are the one who should go back to newbie games?
There is a thing called strategy.
But I will wait and see the results of your INCREDIBLE SCUMHUNTING before I judge you.

(plus, the reasons for my Mastin vote are clear.)

[Benmage]

But you were aware of later backing which makes the vote you quoted less lazy/poor.

You mean future backing?

Regardless it is one of several examples. In addition I was giving her the benefit of the doubt in that case. Because Although she returns to it, and "re-affirms her vote" giving a reason.. The reason is so shitty that you could add 'crap-cases' to the list of lazy/poor votes.