Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[Benmage]

(plus, the reasons for my Mastin vote are clear.)

Could you please reiterate them for me? I must've missed them. Or direct me to the post I can find them.

[camn]

(plus, the reasons for my Mastin vote are clear.)

Could you please reiterate them for me? I must've missed them. Or direct me to the post I can find them.

I HAVE GIVEN YOU MY VOTE FOR THE DAY.

I will vote anyone you vote.
You are a Power Role.
A Double-voter.
Hurry up and find scum gogogogogo!!!

Show me how it is done!!

[GIEFF]

It has for a big part to do with pushing people hard with little things. And act like they are obv-scum becouse something unimportant. Like pressing Camn with the "I don't kill you KMD" slip. Little things that you didn't even put in your cases, who represent your big point.

OK. Don't you think Battle Mage did the same thing in Post 113, to an even greater extent? It looks to me like you are focusing on me mostly because YOU were the first target of my hard-pushing with "little things," even though this was way back on page 2. Pushing hard is my playstyle.

You've done everything in my case. If you feel otherwise, say so. I'll show you where it was.

I do feel otherwise, but saying exactly why now would needlessly clutter the thread, as you and I would have to go back-and-forth line-by-line, quote-war-wall style, and something tells me you would not allow yourself to agree with me anyway. You have been less-than-objective when it comes to your analysis of me this game.

If I need to respond to them to defend myself, I will.

-----

Kmd, stop defending camn.

camn and Benmage, stop cluttering the thread. Benmage is just arguing similar points I was. The whole point of the "truce" was to stop the pages of back-and-forth, but now you two are just continuing it.

[Kmd4390]

Objectively, I would think (via the KMD Gambit) that scum would jump on a crap-case on a townie...... especially if it was presented well... so I could be scum.
Of course, if YOU are scum, and part of a 2-man team.. then that obviously WOULDN'T happen.

Actually, they'd jump on the Mastin wagon.

@KMD

I wouldn't lynch him for either reason.

Ah, but I

WOULD

That is what make me fun!

Can't argue with that logic.

But you were aware of later backing which makes the vote you quoted less lazy/poor.

You mean future backing?

Regardless it is one of several examples. In addition I was giving her the benefit of the doubt in that case. Because Although she returns to it, and "re-affirms her vote" giving a reason.. The reason is so shitty that you could add 'crap-cases' to the list of lazy/poor votes.

Yeah, that would be what I said.

There is a huge difference between a crap case and a lazy vote. You are changing which you call it just because I am now aware of the situation.

[camn]

camn and Benmage, stop cluttering the thread. Benmage is just arguing similar points I was. The whole point of the "truce" was to stop the pages of back-and-forth, but now you two are just continuing it.

he keeps asking me dumb questions.. !
are you saying i should ignore them?

I do agree they hardly deserve answers....
.. and he IS simply sheeping YOUR case.......
.. though he doesn't have the guts to vote for me....

Hmm.

Geoff.. what about my post 623?
I think that would be worthwhile to hear.... do you have a theory?

[alexhans]

Ok... New style. I divide my posts into people. It should be clearer and that way you won't miss something that is adressed to you.

(Updated till 616)

----------------------------

Post highlights:

-Zach thinks that a question or a comment is an acusation and that's starting to throw me off.
-I disagree with SpyreX's view of BM town because of his cop trap.
-I ask DDD for input.
-Is Camn trying to policy lynch GIEFF?
-Does GIEFF thinks that KMD's sample game with 2 scum adds to his case on Camn?
-Has SensFan done the same thing KMD found scummy in the sample game?
-I respond to some stuff to KMD.
-Why does KMD let Camn respond to GIEFF's arguments when it was a discussion between KMD and GIEFF?
----------------------------

ZACH:

No... I'm mistaken... You agreed with SF about NK speculation is bad because scum had control over it...

Doesn't matter really. It was a vague memory... that's why I said IIRC.

It does matter. If you're going to

accuse me

of things I'm not doing, it's actually quite important and game relevant Alex.

This is the SECOND time when you have reacted in a terrified manner to a question or comment about you. The buddying comment. Even if it were true about you regarding BM (It was true about you regarding SF) it did not mean you were scum for it. I was just mocking some players (particularly GIEFF) views of buddying up to people being scummy.
----------------------------

SpyreX

597: What scum can be so retarded to claim cop by direction? Even if they didn't realize it was a mountanious game... They would certainly be afraid of a counterclaim...

Also... We know that a good player will act the same as scum or town... so if he laid traps as town he would surely pretend to lay traps as scum too.

I'm happy you're finally available to chip in. That's what we need.

That's a fair thought. But... wich from where?

You're not even reading everything in a post before you start replying are you?

I am... it's just that I don't see how do we get to catch scum from the list. Yes, you made a list... so now what? How, specifically is scum. That's my question. Rest assured. I read everything.
----------------------------

Benmage

I keep mixing both mages up... You can tell when I do...
577: SpyreX was the one that said you had word sickness, Ask him.
So, are you fine with Camn not scumhunting?
----------------------------

Battle Mage

it looks like:

Alex, Mastin, Hasdgfas, VP Baltar, Kairyuu

maybe: Debonair and Camn

So... you're saying (assuming I'm scum) that I killed a member of my brigade?
VP baltar is commiting treason then... because he is voting me... and Kai did too... because he deserted me...
Mastin remains loyal... XD
Oh... btw... I want Cephir out so I can get my reinforcement RedCoyote

With Camn is more a Love-hate relationship. DDD is just a guy who looks cool and likes to stay silent and say BULLSHIT once in a while.
----------------------------

DDD

: I have a good opinion on your analysys from our game so I'm still expecting something other than your Mastin vote... Imagine if you get killed... We would lose your valuable input...
----------------------------

jammer

:

@alexhans, try making a post. Then look at it and delete everything out of it that isn't necessarily needed. Or make some summary at the end of your posts. Just make it possible I have to read less of it.

As much as it pains me. I will try to do it. I'm used to writing every thought I have so that it's there for the future but I will try to edit them a bit more and remove the not-totally-relevant comments.
----------------------------

Camn

jammer's last post is so town it makes my eyes bleed.

ÌS this funny Camn or Serious Camn?

My scumhunting was genuine in that game, too. . . We knew there were two groups.
2-scumgroup games twist scum meta.

Crap... so it isn't the best example... because in THIS game. Scum Scumhunting WONT be genuine.

Furthermore..... I would further argue that I am the most brilliant voter of this game.

Despite all the trouble... this game is F·$%·$ GREAT

My initial reasoning on GIEFF STILL STANDS. I think he is probably too dangerous to have in endgame.

Dangerous to whom?

And I am STILL willing to proxy my vote to him, since he took it upon himself to get personal. I want to see Mastin's flip, since BenMage is so sure of his "skill".

Couldn't this mean that you're scum knowing both Mastin's and Benmage's allignments?

Now, additionally, it is that his TOWN-game is too POOR for him to be reliable in endgame.

Why is it his town game poorer than yours? or than other players, for that matter?

After... all... you're saying that you're POLICY LYNCHING GIEFF... Am I right?

Last one... why, oh why, are you voting mastin and not GIEFF?
----------------------------

GIEFF

: I don't want to meta... How many games have you played with Camn?
602: While I was shocked about it too. Notice that that game had 2 scumteams... wich makes it harder to say if it can be a scumtell or not.
----------------------------
KMD: I understand that you may go with GUT and later with logic. Is it gut what you have on me right now? I assume that GIEFF is not gut... when does the logic case come up? Are you ok with everybody else saying gut unless they're about to lynch a player?

KMD... you think it's GIEFF and me together?

Yep.

I seriously hope you're town then.

Thanks for the Camn stuff. It's interesting. I agree that her buddying is just Camn. We'll have to see about the other stuff (Like not being pro-town enough and not going after lurkers) but the fact that her scumhunting was genuine makes it a practically useless example.

Hasnt's SensFan done the same thing as Camn in that game when he gave his list and then said that "we could all be town, of course"?

Wait, there are people here who you invited to play? Just out of curiosity, who?

*triple facepalm*

I can see why you'd say I've buddied with Camn, but why Sens? Because I don't like your vote on him?

Pretty much.

BM voted GIEFF even though he said that at least one fo Mastin and I were town.

Wait, am I missing something here? Why do you and Mastin have to be scum for GIEFF to be scum?

BM, as you might recall, voted mastin. Then, after my NutSoCaps, he said that either Mastin or me were scum, right? Then, after a heated set of wall posts, unvoted me and voted GIEFF... Why would he if he thought either Mastin or I was scum (and he looked dead set on me)?

KMD: I did not invite you because I know that you play a lot of games so you would probably be busy. Don't take it personally. I was afraid that you might get lazy if there was a lot of catch up to do...

I intended to answer the 123456 points about Camn in your 604 after GIEFF did... but it seems Benmage and him have done a pretty good job already pointing some of them out.

-hypocracy

Wow... is he setting some kind of form of goverment with hypocrites as leaders? XD

I'll let Camn respond to that herself.

NO WAY. You defended her. Explain why you said what you said and if you disagree with Benmage state why.

Witholding reasons is fine as long as they come out eventually.

What do you think about my voting SensFan now then?
----------------------------

Thanks, Yaw. It was a prod request.

[Yaw]

Vote Count:

Mastin (4): Zachrulez, Benmage, Debonair Danny DiPietro, camn
GIEFF (2): Kmd4390, jammer
Battle Mage (1): Mastin
SensFan (1): alexhans
VP Baltar (1): Battle Mage
camn (1): GIEFF
alexhans (1): VP Baltar
Cephrir (1): SpyreX

Not Voting: Cephrir, blackcatcontract, SensFan

8 to lynch

[Zachrulez]

Alex, I was addressing a comment you made about me that was untrue. I don't know what fantasy world you're living in where you think I'm terrified of it. I'm rightly calling you out for it.

I'm don't see how quoting for truth a post sensfan made that I happened to agree with is buddying.

[camn]

@alex:
a) I am not ACTIVELY trying to policy lynch geiff. But it is not out-of-the-question.
b) Funny and serious camn go places together. But I meant it. Jammer is pretty town imo.
c) Define 'scumhunting' if you are going to persist in saying I am not doing it, pls.
d) geiff and I have played ONE game together.. as scum together. I replaced in, and Geiff played brilliantly, and we won.
e) you need to read ALL THE WAY TO THE END before you ask questions. My reasons for voting Mastin are clear. My reasons for NOT voting Geiff are clear.
This running, stream-of-consciousness posting style doesn't help us at all.
Try and find the answers to your questions before asking them.

[GIEFF]

What other situations could explain 12-14ish townies, and 1-3ish scum, pretty much ignoring your case on me?

They are not "pretty much ignoring" my case on you.(PLEASE READ IT CAREFULY IF YOU HAVE NOT DONE SO YET)

To summarize the way people think about it:

• Sens, Kmd, camn, and jammer think my case is crap.
  
• VP Baltar, Battle Mage, and DDD agree with at least some of my points (although DDD thinks they are minor).
  
• alex and Benmage agree with more of my points.
  
• Cephrir, blackcatcontract, Mastin, Spyrex, and zach have not acknowledged reading my case on page 22.

It's far too soon to say that everyone is ignoring it, considering that 4 people (5 if you include DDD) agree with it at least somewhat, and the 3 people who are against it completely (jammer, Sens, and KMD), already thought I was scum when I made it, and so are not being as objective as they could be. And 5 people haven't even read it yet.


Just because those against it are being vociferous does NOT mean they are the majority, camn.

--------------

-Does GIEFF thinks that KMD's sample game with 2 scum adds to his case on Camn?

No, but I think that his sample game with camn should make him more suspicious of camn, and less willing to defend her.

GIEFF: I don't want to meta... How many games have you played with Camn?

Just one. Open 108. We were scumbuddies.

[VP Baltar]

Jesus, I hate you people. Why are we posting 4 pages a day again?

Catching up later this evening after an obligation....hopefully.

[SpyreX]

597: What scum can be so retarded to claim cop by direction? Even if they didn't realize it was a mountanious game... They would certainly be afraid of a counterclaim...

Also... We know that a good player will act the same as scum or town... so if he laid traps as town he would surely pretend to lay traps as scum too.

I'm happy you're finally available to chip in. That's what we need.

Its not a simple "OHH SHI I AM COPS LOLOLOL" - the nuance is there.

If the reply was "I dont understand why you are rolefishing" I would have hung them up so fast it would have made your eyes spin. Etc, etc.

Like I've said, over and over, BM's "gambit" was town-motivated because in this setup the amount of scum-machination behind it is nil.

And, good players will

attempt

to act the same as scum or town. Thats a duh.

I am... it's just that I don't see how do we get to catch scum from the list. Yes, you made a list... so now what? How, specifically is scum. That's my question. Rest assured. I read everything.

Le sigh.

The "list" is a stepping stone. Its saying simply: with the development of this game there is an all but guaranteed scum spread between the vomiters and the non-vomiters.

So, how does that list find scum? Dollars to donuts if we lynch (GIEFF, Alex, Benmage) in that order there will be a scum hit.

The trick is trying to hit them first and not waste the mislynches.

YET, as my vote says, that is STILL secondary to lynching Cephrir.

[alexhans]

One last fast post... I'll adress tomorrow any other point that feels necessary.

e) you need to read ALL THE WAY TO THE END before you ask questions. My reasons for voting Mastin are clear. My reasons for NOT voting Geiff are clear.
This running, stream-of-consciousness posting style doesn't help us at all.
Try and find the answers to your questions before asking them.

I know what you said when you said it... I just want to see what you say now after all your explanations regarding different topics to show you as town, no matter what. Then we can see if you're consistent or just trying to look townie out of every question.

Spyrex... What about my list... I want to apply a lynch queue too... anyway... we will have 2 flips tomorrow... so giving lynching queues won't help us too much. We need to try to find scum today.

And those who haven't posted enough NEED to post more or they WILL be a liability to town.

[GIEFF]

@Spyrex.

That is not scumhunting. That is making a claim without much backing (scum is split between vomiters and non-vomiters), and then advocating lynching based on that alone. That is akin to what Mastin did early in the game, BEFORE we had 25 pages of accusations and votes to analyze. Mastin made a claim without much backing (people in games with has are more likely to be scum), made a list, and then tried to lynch people based on it.

I find making excuses like this scummy. As I said about Mastin (which he has not even read yet):

Similarly, just voting for a player who has been in a lot of games with hascow is a neat way to avoid any more substantial scumhunting. Making up a formula (more games with hascow = scummy), and apply it unthinkingly is a lot easier method for scum to "scumhunt" than actually trying to look at possible scum and town motivations, while also remaining consistent.

As I asked you before, Spyrex, and which you did not answer:

Spy, do you have any suspicions of anybody based on something besides what you call "spew"? Have you read my case of BM in post 378, or my case on camn at the top of this page?

[SpyreX]

@GIEFF -

I guess I haven't addressed it directly. Allow me to do so now:

1.) I have not gotten the "I AM SOO TOWN GUYS" feel from camn at all.
--- If this is a crux, how does Mastin measure up?

2.) The rest of it is up to camn to tear apart but its paper-thin.

That is not scumhunting. That is making a claim without much backing (scum is split between vomiters and non-vomiters), and then advocating lynching based on that alone. That is akin to what Mastin did early in the game, BEFORE we had 25 pages of accusations and votes to analyze. Mastin made a claim without much backing (people in games with has are more likely to be scum), made a list, and then tried to lynch people based on it.

May I subscribe to your newsletter? I sure could use "Scumhunting Weekly - Tips and Tricks of the trade."

Looking at the ebb and flow of a game that is suffering from a drag effect BECAUSE OF THE VOMIT DIRECTLY WOO IS scumhunting because get this, and follow me here:

Scum have the absolute most to gain from the giant amount of spew.

As for who my suspect is I'm pretty sure a vote should make that really clear. The fact you keep just swishing by this is just confirming my theory that is spelled out more than once that one of you (probably you) is being a vomit-waterfall that Ceph is hiding in.

[SpyreX]

Spyrex... What about my list... I want to apply a lynch queue too... Rolling Eyes anyway... we will have 2 flips tomorrow... so giving lynching queues won't help us too much. We need to try to find scum today.

What list? There's so many WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS that I'll freely admit I quit reading them all.

And yea its totally a queue that we should go down and just ignore everything else because thats exactly what I was addressing my lord almighty :explode:

[GIEFF]

1.) I have not gotten the "I AM SOO TOWN GUYS" feel from camn at all.
--- If this is a crux, how does Mastin measure up?

Mastin is guilty of the same thing.

As for who my suspect is I'm pretty sure a vote should make that really clear. The fact you keep just swishing by this is just confirming my theory that is spelled out more than once that one of you (probably you) is being a vomit-waterfall that Ceph is hiding in.

I don't have a problem with wanting to lynch people for lack of contribution (especially when it's just been 4 posts), and so I didn't attack you on those grounds. I am not "swishing by it." I see where your vote is.

My problem is with your claim that the people who are spewing (which is subjective) is scum. You have no evidence that is NOT based on this.

But you have no problem at all using other evidence to REMOVE people from your list. You somehow don't think that either Battle Mage or Mastin are capable of faking concern for the town. Scum do that all the time. Battle Mage's trap was null, and any town-points Mastin may have gained by trying to kick-start the game were lost (and then some) with how often he tried to call attention to that fact. Mastin is the ONLY person who both spews AND lurks, yet you decide to just write him off. I don't buy it.


And you don't include camn or KMD on that list, just because you subjectively claim they don't make your eyes bleed, when they're just as guilty of quote-warring and walling as most (with the exception of alex).


I call BS. If you want to lynch people who you think are purposefully creating spew to confuse the town, that's one thing, although I still think that would be ticky-tack. But you've gone even farther by haphazardly removing people from that list. You aren't even applying your own "formula" objectively.

[camn]

2.) The rest of it is up to camn to tear apart but its paper-thin.

Im SO glad you are finally here.

But be advised, I agreed to NOT destroy geiff's case anymore.. to cut down on the postcount. And since arguing with him is like trying to order chinese takeout with the sauce on the side.

[Benmage]

I HAVE GIVEN YOU MY VOTE FOR THE DAY.

I will vote anyone you vote.
You are a Power Role.
A Double-voter.
Hurry up and find scum gogogogogo!!!

Show me how it is done!!

Oh that’s what I thought…its humerous noone seems to care about this.

But let’s see how it works. Now follow my scum-hunting lead. Unvote

Vote Camn

.

he keeps asking me dumb questions.. !

Seriously..you’ve asked me way more questions. The last tangent was a statement to KmD.

----------------------------

Benmage

So, are you fine with Camn not scumhunting?
----------------------------

Nope. I’m willing to her hang.

----------------------------

DDD

: I have a good opinion on your analysys from our game so I'm still expecting something other than your Mastin vote... Imagine if you get killed... We would lose your valuable input...
----------------------------

Yeah dude, post more.

And since arguing with him is like trying to order chinese takeout with the sauce on the side.

I grinned at this one.

[camn]

UNvote
Vote Camn

[Cephrir]

Present. Unexpectedly limited access these past few days, should be all set tomorrow but then again I said tomorrow once and was totally wrong so who knows.

[VP Baltar]

New rule in effect for the remainder of D1, if I can't read your whole post by scrolling once or less, it's not happening. If I missed something you really want addressed, you had better requote it.

I am arguing that camn believes voting lurkers is scummy, which explains why she hasn't done it, even though it is pro-town to vote those whom you think are scum.

This is an over complication of logic and is more than likely untrue. People don't think like this when they are scum. I should know, I am quite often.

Am I nuts, or is Benmage a giant hypocrite?

He's being a hypocrite. Not always a scumtell, but in this case it does seem fairly scummy.

His next post was 4 minutes later.
And his next one was 3 minutes after that.
Then yet another post 18 minutes later.
Then, 20, 18, 4, and 2.

And yet he still lives. MORE PEOPLE VOTE MASTIN.

Is English a second language to you, jammer? Also, I have no clue who the "you" is in that mess.

Ok. SO everytime I disagree with reasons for a waggon or don't suspect the same player as others then I will be buddying whoever is accused. I can handle that.

No. lrn 2 read. You were buddying with GIEFF, simple.

How you start mentioning a supposed scummy behaviour on my part... When you previously never mentioned anything of the sort...

OMG, you are like, so right....oh except when I called you somewhat scummy for your Mastin defence early in the game. If there weren't a million posts a day, you might recall.

reason being?

You're scum.

Unless my brain has died again, my vote is still on VP

And yet, you still don't know why yourself. Interesting theory.

it looks like:

Alex, Mastin, Hasdgfas, VP Baltar, Kairyuu

At what page did you exactly stop reading the game? Hascow is fucking dead, Kairyuu replaced out, and I have been wanting Mastin dead for some time now. My vote is currently on Alex. Thanks for playing.

-------TL,DR--------

People who need to die immediately:
Mastin or Alex or Cephrir or anyone with the initials BM

People who need to stop commenting altogether for the remainder of the day unless it is to vote one of the above:
GIEFF and Camn and Kmd and possibly jammer

People who could stand to post more:
DDD and BCC and Zachrulez

Everyone else:
As you were.

[GIEFF]

I'm tempted to unvote camn, as she just nailed a mafia with her vote for camn. But I won't, just in case camn is right about camn being mafia (I see no reason not to trust her).

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD

: I have a good opinion on your analysys from our game so I'm still expecting something other than your Mastin vote... Imagine if you get killed... We would lose your valuable input...

If you've got a specific issue or a specific person that you want my input on, let me know and I'll put together an opinion in relatively short order. Otherwise, I'll continue to post when I feel the need to comment on something and not just to fill up the page.

The above applies to

everyone

requesting my input. Ask direct questions, get direct answers; otherwise I'll continue as I have been.

[SpyreX]

Mastin is guilty of the same thing.

Fair enough. Yet, the focus is predominately on camn. Even with a mastin wagon having more steam.

My problem is with your claim that the people who are spewing (which is subjective) is scum. You have no evidence that is NOT based on this.

But you have no problem at all using other evidence to REMOVE people from your list. You somehow don't think that either Battle Mage or Mastin are capable of faking concern for the town. Scum do that all the time. Battle Mage's trap was null, and any town-points Mastin may have gained by trying to kick-start the game were lost (and then some) with how often he tried to call attention to that fact. Mastin is the ONLY person who both spews AND lurks, yet you decide to just write him off. I don't buy it.

I don't, nor have I pretended, to have "evidence" on anyone yet. I have not given a true case on any of my aforementioned list being scum because, get this, now is not the time. I am voting Ceph for a reason. IF need be I'll give a detailed (hint: more words than Ceph has posted) rationale for it but its right there.

As for Battle Mage and Mastin: yea, I think they're town

at this juncture

. Further evidence could change it. I think they are both perfectly capable of faking concern but I do not think they have done so

in this particular instance

.

I AM going to do a review of Mastin as a function of activity on the site in actual games and if he's actively avoiding this one I'll throw my vote that way.

And you don't include camn or KMD on that list, just because you subjectively claim they don't make your eyes bleed, when they're just as guilty of quote-warring and walling as most (with the exception of alex).

I call BS. If you want to lynch people who you think are purposefully creating spew to confuse the town, that's one thing, although I still think that would be ticky-tack. But you've gone even farther by haphazardly removing people from that list. You aren't even applying your own "formula" objectively.

This is the second time in this post alone you used the word subjectively to explain my thought process. Duh.

Are you saying you've

objectively

found scum? If thats the case then I'd sure as hell throw my vote on you right now because as you so eloquently put it I call BS.

I dont include KMD or Camn in that list because I dont find them scummy. If I need to write a thesis showing the difference in the posting to differentiate them I will but god in heaven why should I need to. I dont think they're doing what I was illustrating.

And, to close a nice paraphrase:

"If you want to lynch people who are purposefully doing something that is scummy in nature I think that's ticky-tack. You've went farther by removing people from the list of more people than could possibly BE SCUM in the hopes of finding the actual SCUM and that's even worse."

Pretty sure that sums it up.

@VP:

<3 (although your post was more than a scroll tsk, tsk).