Newbie 816 - Game over!

[havingfitz]

Random vote for Lailai

[havingfitz]

Just checking in as I don't want to be too absent while I try to figure out how the game is played and what is going on. Still ok with where my vote is as no one else has done enough to make me change it.

In an effort to provide some input on the discussions...on the subject of no lynching...I agree with the point being made that a NL would be a wasted opportunity to get a mafia member out and just allow them a free shot at getting rid of non-mafia.

[havingfitz]

Unvote Vote:pancakes

because in my uneducated opinion waiting another day to vote is more beneficial to mafia.

[havingfitz]

Apologies for not posting recently. Was away from internet access for 2+ days and the remaining time has been spent digesting/analyzing what has been going on in the game.

As this is the first Mafia game I have ever been in there is a lot to try and figure out...like why voting for someone I think may be Mafia is reason to to cast suspicion on me. I voted on pancakes because in my inexperienced opinion he/she was suspicious. The fact I was putting pancakes 1 vote from lynching made me suspicious but the others who had voted for pancakes are not? What does casting the deciding vote do...confirm suspicions? Very confusing for a newbie.

And it is amazing (as in filled with disbelief) to me that people are trying to pair me with others as being scum...or deduce that I am scum on the basis of three or four posts. Is trying to build negative opinion towards someone despite very little supporting evidence a scum tell?

If the worst thing I have done (prior to what I would not be suprised to be informed are several scummy tells in this post) is to place a vote on someone I thought was a bit scummy...and be the 4 person to place the same vote...then I'm going to be on eggshells this entire game.

I'll keep my vote where it is for the time being but I am starting to think some of the more vocal participants may be a bit shady.

I will effort to be more vocal and honestly do apologize for my inactivity.

[havingfitz]

I'm still good with pancakes for my vote (or whomever he is replaced by). I'm wading through ~40 pages in word of all the Newbie 816 posts to see if someone else should have my vote. Everytime someone makes what I think is a good point someone else brings up good counter points and it's not making my deductive reasoning any sharper....

[havingfitz]

OK...still wouldn't know what a good scumtell would be if someone posted one in bold red letters...but as there hasn't been a lot to work on in this game, and several players have already bailed/been replaced, I agree with the train of thought that a no-lynch is a wasted opportunity and gives mafia a free pass to get rid of one of us. So intially I view NL support as a tell. Which is why I currently have my vote on pancakes. Along those lines...anyone opposed to a NL is a bit un-scummy IMO [EB, Dramonic, Adel...etc]. For now. That said...I would assume someone experienced at Mafia...and being scum...would know to not raise red flags and would avoid supporting a NL. Pancakes was very new to the site (but new to mafia???) so perhaps he was going for the easy NL option. Kulko had joined very recently as well and intially went for NL but changed his mind after some pressure. I've learned that being the vote to get someone too close to a lynch is a bad thing (even if I honestly am suspicious of the person I'm voting for vice a random vote). TF appeared to be a bit peculiar and voting to have pancakes at L-1 after I was scolded for it seems a bit fishy. So pancakes and TF are my two main suspicions for now (or whomever they were replaced by).

[havingfitz]

OK…lots more digesting of information.



After further review…I have backed off my suspicions of pancakes. While I think his/her desire for NL was as good a tell as any that early in the game…apparently as was my putting him at L-1…I think TF’s peculiar play and subsequent placing of pancakes at L-1 after I was denounced for it is very suspicious. I am looking forward to see how TF’s replacement acts and am leaning towards TF now. I also think Adel //now Zw// is suspicious due to 1.) his/her IMO hasty suspicions of me (based on very few posts and what was for me at the time the unknown sin of putting someone at L-1

), 2) creating several scum pair combos placing suspicion on 3 people and deflecting from himself along with his confusing questions asked of IKD, 3) his subsequent conduct with IKD to include voting him (which I now understand is part of the game and geared towards getting a reaction [or lynch]). Last…I think EB is just slightly fishy due to the voting he has been involved in that has already been detailed by others…though I need to look over his votes/posts more closely to feel better about my suspicions towards him.

@ Manzcar – no…for reasons mentioned earlier in this post.

@ PP – This is the first time I have ever played mafia. My only exposure to the game has been an obsessed 13 yr old son who can not get enough of it and tries to discuss his mafia games in detail...though until I signed on here I wasn't the most attentive listener I signed up in here at his request to give the game a try and while I had hoped to play in a game with him, much to his frustration we weren’t allowed to be in the same game. In hindsight that is probably best. And to answer your question about IKD...I am finding his 'teachings' good food for thought. Several people have given 'lessons' throughout the posts and I for one appreciate all of them...but IKD has been a little more vocal...not that I find that a bad thing.

Unvote

for now

[havingfitz]

@ havingfitz, do you still think tfrench is still scum? or was it just a newbie move? what are your thoughts on a quicklynch the closer we get to the deadline?

Nothing has happened to change my mind about TF. Assuming TF actually was new/inexperienced I think their actions only solidify my suspicions as someone more experienced probably wouldn't have made such an obvious questionable move [ie re-putting someone at L-1 so soon after that action had been discouraged to others {me}].

@havingfitz & Manzcar as you are the only ones apart from me not voting, if you had to vote for someone right now, who would you choose and why?

I would hate to vote before TF is replaced and the replacement has had a chance to defend their position...but I would still lean towards TF at this moment for the reasons provided in my earlier posts. My next would be ZW based on initial suspicions towards Adel and ZW's subsequent behavior (ex. his recent push for a quick vote).

[havingfitz]

Not sure when I'll have a chance to get on tomorrow and I don't want to miss the vote. I think TFs actions earned enough suspicion to have my vote regardless of the player now in their spot. crazypianist1116 made some good points and seems like a coherent person but I'm still voting for the player formerly known as TF.

Vote: crazypianist1116

[havingfitz]

@ havingfitz, do you have any thoughts on how this game has progressed since you have been away? have you gained any scumvibes from anybody after the night kill?

I just got back home about 1 hr ago and am hitting the sack (0035 here in UK). I'll digest as soon as possible and comment.

Cheers and goodnight.

[havingfitz]

Also come on havingfitz, you have been back for days now but you have failed to post anything, well anything which is worth while.

PP...some of us have lives that don't involve the internet. Checking this site once a day or so and then having to try to make sense of all the information is made more difficult when one doesn't have a lot of time to dedicate is to the site and has never played the game before. Many of your posts that mention me express the negative opinion you have towards what I have to say. Please stop being a broken record...I will just take it for granted that anything I post will not be considered worth...while by you. I will post when I can and not on anyone else's schedule. If it is more frequent than what it takes me to not get removed from the game then great. On that note....thoughts I put together today at work before reading your continued criticism of me:

============================================

OK...apologizes again for the absence but an 8 day vacation with no internet access requires a lot of catching up to do…around the house…at work…emails…and then reams of Mafia information to try and process.

I’m still good with my TF/CP vote and at the moment will probably continue in that direction. I did not see anything suspicious with Dramonic (perhaps out of Mafia ignorance or not being able to see the tree for the forest) and I think at least one of his voters is scum. It’s not EB because he got the boot. I also think part of the reason EB got the boot was not because of any threat he may have been towards Mafia but because he had voted Dramonic as well and if he had voted for someone else…especially actual Mafia…him getting lynched would have cast suspicion on the person he voted for. I don’t think both mafia would have voted for Dramonic so I believe the other mafia would come from those voting others (or even more conveniently….not voting for anyone at all). In addition to suspicions on CP (because of TF)…who has now shifted attention towards me a bit (along with PP who continues to get frustrated at my lack of content and quality) I was initially leaning towards ZW for his pre-Dramonic lynch actions…but he is so inconsistent and erratic, I can not imagine someone mafia would bring such negative attention to themselves. For that reason alone I am tempering my suspicions towards ZW. I also think ZW’s erratic gameplay makes him an easy target for mafia to push others towards. I haven’t developed any suspicions of note yet on Cirdua and Manzcar so that leaves IKD, ZW, PP, and CP. My two main suspicions at the moment are therefore CP and PP. CP for his predecessors (TF) actions and subsequent vote on Dramonic…placing of suspicions on ZW/IKD/myself and defending PP (in posts 239 and 316). PP for not voting (and effectively removing herself from the suspicion of voting for town) and what I perceive as maintaining a distance from CP. I’ll try to post more after reviewing info further.

[havingfitz]

I’m still good with my TF/CP vote and at the moment will probably continue in that direction.

Yet you aren't voting for me.

The last time I voted was for you and I have not seen anything to change my opinion. Reasons mentioned in post 351 only solidify my suspicions towards you. Unless something changes my mind, when I vote again [which there is no rush to do…we have over a week] it will be for you.

I did not see anything suspicious with Dramonic (perhaps out of Mafia ignorance or not being able to see the tree for the forest) and I think at least one of his voters is scum. It’s not EB because he got the boot.

Well duh.

Realize that was stating obvious but I was simply eliminating EB from the four who voted Dramonic. That leaves you, ZW and IKD. Of those three my suspicions are towards you and I do not think both mafia would have voted on the same bandwagon.

I also think part of the reason EB got the boot was not because of any threat he may have been towards Mafia but because he had voted Dramonic as well and if he had voted for someone else…especially actual Mafia…him getting lynched would have cast suspicion on the person he voted for.

Speculating on night kills is just WIFOM.

PP asked for my opinion following the night kill…how could it be anything other than speculation (short of stating the obvious which I had already done).

I don’t think both mafia would have voted for Dramonic so I believe the other mafia would come from those voting others (or even more conveniently….not voting for anyone at all).

Such as yourself?

Well duh. I think there is a mafia vote within the Dramonic bandwagon which points me to CP-IKD-and ZW of which I feel strongest towards you and a mafia vote not on Dramonic which points me to Manzcar-Cirdua-PP of which I feel strongest towards PP.

In addition to suspicions on CP (because of TF)…who has now shifted attention towards me a bit (along with PP who continues to get frustrated at my lack of content and quality)

Shifted my attention towards you? My attention is on zwet right now. The only two things I've said to you on Day 2 were:

Not sure when I'll have a chance to get on tomorrow and I don't want to miss the vote. I think TFs actions earned enough suspicion to have my vote regardless of the player now in their spot. crazypianist1116 made some good points and seems like a coherent person but I'm still voting for the player formerly known as TF.

Vote: crazypianist1116

Sure he's attacking TF, but he made no reason to attack me. At that same time, he didn't even bother to take a stance on IKD/Dramonic. Almost as if he was trying to prevent that day's lynch. He's V/LA now anyways so I'll ask more questions of him later.

and

Havingfitz, I'm waiting for your analysis.

Now is that really shifting my attention towards you?

No…this is --> Post 299

“My top suspects as of now are probably zwet and havingfitz. “

To which…and IMO supports a CP and PP link….PP in the very next post chimed in with support to you and further attack on my play.

I was initially leaning towards ZW for his pre-Dramonic lynch actions…but he is so inconsistent and erratic, I can not imagine someone mafia would bring such negative attention to themselves. For that reason alone I am tempering my suspicions towards ZW. I also think ZW’s erratic gameplay makes him an easy target for mafia to push others towards.

So you decide to attack me with no real solid evidence instead.

Where in this game is anyone getting any real solid evidence? I gave my reasons for suspecting you in post 351.

I haven’t developed any suspicions of note yet on Cirdua and Manzcar so that leaves IKD, ZW, PP, and CP. My two main suspicions at the moment are therefore CP and PP. CP for his predecessors (TF) actions and subsequent vote on Dramonic…placing of suspicions on ZW/IKD/myself

Placing suspicions on zwet was warranted. He even called himself scummy. I never really placed any suspicion on IKD. Placing suspicion on you was warranted as well because you weren't posting much, you only attacked me because of tfrench, and because of what I'm showing in this post.

My two main suspicions at the moment are therefore CP and PP. CP for... defending PP (in posts 239 and 316).

239:

Unvote

Purple Princess doesn't deserve a vote.
...
8. Votes pancakes claiming no lynch is bad for town.

I'd hardly call that defending purple princess. Tfrench voted for pancakes anyways not purple princess.

I would call the comment “Purple Princess doesn't deserve a vote. “ defending her.

316:

You don't understand what I'm trying to say. I purposely started day two on an established scummy note, eg providing a horrible reason for voting imkingdavid. I then proceeded to get purple princess annoyed at my attack on imkingdavid, hoping to get either ikd or princess to get annoyed enough to reveal something scummy or otherwise a slip of some sort, which is exactly what happened. ikd confirmed my suspicions that he is actively trying to assuage the town's suspicion through over-towniness in his earlier post, in which he said the most scummy thing ever, that even though there was very good reason to vote on my scummy behavior, he wasn't going to for fear of being scrutinized more closely. My scummy behavior is EXACTLY why I think ikd is scum. Any normal town player would have clearly seen the huge amount of evidence I have for why I'm scum and voted accordingly, but ikd reveals his unwillingness to vote the prime suspect for an INCREDIBLY SCUMMY reason. The fact that purple princess immediately provided support, and now that ikd has jumped on purple's wagon to try to fix his earlier mistake confirm my suspicions. ikd and purple princess are the scum.

I understand your case against IKD because of this line:

Anyway, I'm tempted to vote you based on the fact that you're tunneling me with no reasoning, but that would be seen as OMGUS and would be used against me. But I will vote you if you keep this up.

But purple princess didn't "immediately provide support." Cirdua, manzcar, and I were attacking you as well.

Additionally, I don't really like the fact that you intentionally acted scummy to try and get the real scum to slip up. This could be used as an excuse for all scummy behavior, which makes it a bad excuse.

I wouldn't call that a defense either. I was attacking zwet by comparing purple princess to myself, cirdua, and manzcar.

ZW was focusing his attentions on IKD and PP to which IMO you gave weak support to his IKD suspicions followed by defense of PP.

[havingfitz]

Fitz's post to me was very good to see. He hasn't been very vocal and some of his points are interesting. I found it interesting that he suspected Zwets but has decided that his eratic play is too much to be scum because scum wouldn't do that. It is pure WIFOM almost like the "too townie" stuff. So I am not sure why he is so willing to let Zwets off the hook for the exact reason why I have a problem with Zwets. But I do like his thoughts about CP because they line up with mine. I am not going to forget French's actions just because CP has replaced into the game. His current play is nothing that screams scum but I have been keeping my eyes on him. I definitely want to see more from Fitz to get a better read on where his motives are directed. Unlike Zwets I am not willing to dismiss any back and forth discussion as town.

I have yet to get a grip with the whole WIFOM and perhaps I am more prone to latching onto the obvious (or making mountains out of molehills). However, since I can’t operate on Mafia experience I have to go on what my gut tells me. As annoying as ZW was in the early stages of the game…I think he had settled down a bit and I find it hard to believe someone who was mafia would work so hard to p;ss off the rest of the players. At the moment he appears to stand as equal a chance of getting lynched for people suspecting him as mafia as he does from people just being annoyed by him. If in the end he turns out to be mafia I will consider it a lesson learned in misdirection (and WIFOM?).

As for motives…the only motive I have is to try and figure out the game and determine a best guess as to who I think mafia are. ZW seems to be an easy suspect at the moment but like you said…in conjunction with TF’s earlier actions and what I have perceived since he was replaced…I am more suspicious of CP. I have also become suspicious of PP for reasons mentioned in post 351 combined with my earlier suspicions of her predecessor pancakes.

@ havingfitz, do you find ignoring questions pro town behaviour? Do you think that IKD is sounding "too townie" therefore must be scum?

Are you insinuating that I am ignoring questions or someone else? I would not be surprised if a few have got past me. Depending on what the question was I would not think it was pro town behaviour. If a lot of questions had been asked of someone and some were repetitive or of little value (like my posts) I would not necessarily see ignoring them as good or bad.

I need to look closer at all the non- CP and PP members so I have yet to form an opinion on IKD to the same extant I have formed opinions on some others. What does too townie sound like? Is it a serious question or are you turning my rationale on ZW against me?

[havingfitz]

Are you insinuating that I am ignoring questions or someone else?

No this was not directed at you, was just asking in general, does it seem pro town?

I would tend to think ignoring questions was not pro town....but like I said....it would depend on the question and the context of when it was asked. I would either have a neutral feeling towards that situation or think it was a bit suspicious.

[havingfitz]

BTW all...I leave for the States tomorrow so I may not be able to post again until Monday. Have a good weekend.

[havingfitz]

Reading through Havingfitz's posts from day one and some of his recent posts seem like he has gained quite a good knowledge of this game in a very short space of time.

Considering you have spent the entire game basically dismissing my posts as worthless this is quite a dramatic turnaround for you PP.

Firstly he was playing the newbie card, and using this if he made any "slip ups" or his inconsistency of posts, but since the night kill he seems to have picked up what is happening very quickly.

As this is my first mafia experience is playing the newbie card improper? Just want to make sure everyone knows where I'm coming from. I've tried to stay away from that card lately as I don't want to come off as a broken record...like your criticisms of the value of my posts to the game prior to now (?). I've tried to be more active since before the night kill...the game has been going on for over a month now so I would say any opinions I have developed have come quickly. I'm happy to discuss any of my "slip-ups" further if you point them out. The L-1 vote? Others?

I am unable to make out if this is just a coincidence or if maybe havingfitz's scum buddy has had some doing in this?

Nice insinuation. I guess if I can suspect you and CP it's only fair for you to deflect suspicions back my way. BTW...I have no scum buddy

He seems to explain quite logically why EB was probably night killed,

You say my night kill analysis was quite logical while CP says I'm pointing out the obvious and grasping WIFOM. Make up your minds.

he also say's that he doesn't think that both scum would have voted for Dramonic on day one, does this include himself as he was still voting for tfrench/crazypianist1116 at this time, which seems to be a pointless argument which nobody really seems to care about which means that havingfitz may be using this to escape under the radar of being scum?

Looks like you are returning the favor and defending your scum buddy CP from my vote on him. At least I took a position with my vote...unlike some who didn't vote at all.

CIRDUA HAVINGFITZ OTHER PEOPLE COMMENT ON WHAT IS TAKING PLACE, don't just lurk and watch.

I have been away from internet access and have been posting more regularly. Chill.

I do see Zwets having a connection with Fitz. Zwets ignored the interaction between Fitz and CP and made a point of calling it two townies arguing. Fitz has also made it a point to state that Zwets doesn’t seem scummy to him because of his playstyle, because scum wouldn’t want to play that way because it would call attention to them. In fact Fitz is the only one who doesn’t believe that Zwets is scummy.

How is ZW's lack of opinion in my exchange with CP a connection? I believe there are others who had no comment at all on it. As for ZW's townie comments, I'm not sure what is townie between two people accusing people of being scummy. But then again...I don't understand a lot of what ZW has posted. I do believe ZW has acted scummy...my focus is simply on others at the moment as ZW's actions were SO scummy and eratic at one point that I did not think anyone who was actually mafia would try that hard to get themselves lynched.

[havingfitz]

@ Havingfitz, the aim of this game is to find scum. I am sorry if you are unable to take criticism from me

All I was pointing out was that you've consistently downplayed my game but suddenly/conveniently change your mind to use as a negative point towards me.

BTW...I have no scum buddy

Did you really need to say that? You should have just said "I'm not scum, honest"

You said I had a scum buddy...is responding to that accusation not acceptable?

At least I took a position with my vote...unlike some who didn't vote at all.

If this is refering to me not voting on day one, I did not vote as I really had no real idea on who was scum,

Yet when I don't vote, correctly, for Dramonic I'm flying under the radar? That would apply, even more so IMO, to you as well in this instance.

would you vote for someone just beacuse everyone else was voting, even if you were unsure if they were scum or town?

Absolutely not. Hence the non-Dramonic vote and my current alternative position on ZW from many in the game.

FOZ havingfitz

FOZ?

[havingfitz]

FOZ?

Oooops, sorry should have been

FOS havingfitz

OK...I thought so. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't an acronym I didn't know.

FOS

PP and CP

@IKD...what do you mean HF vs Cird?

[havingfitz]

Is it just me or has the interest level died down a bit. Or have all the discussion topics been exhausted as we get closer to the deadline?

[havingfitz]

I had a feeling I was on the way out. My detractors got their way (or did they?).

For my first game mafia was entertaining though a bit time consuming trying to keep track of everyone and digest everything they said. I'll give it another try. Good luck townies.

[havingfitz]

I had a feeling I was on the way out. My detractors got their way (or did they?).

For my first game mafia was entertaining though a bit time consuming trying to keep track of everyone and digest everything they said. I'll give it another try. Good luck townies.

[havingfitz]

Right about CP ...wrong about PP .

Hadn't spent too much time looking at Manzcar and Cirdua.

@PP....why the quick vote to set up the quick mafia win? Day three had just started and there wer 2+ weeks till the next vote deadline.

It was interesting all. Thx

[havingfitz]

Well by night two I was sure there were no power roles but if there were any it would have to have been you Cirdua. So you were the logical person to block. I actually wanted to kill you but Crazy wanted to get rid of Fitz.

Yeah I thought getting rid of fitz would leave the least suspicion on me. I blocked you cird because you seemed the most likely one remaining to be cop but fortunately you weren't.

Why would killing me take suspicion off you? I was targetting you as scum.

[havingfitz]

Well by night two I was sure there were no power roles but if there were any it would have to have been you Cirdua. So you were the logical person to block. I actually wanted to kill you but Crazy wanted to get rid of Fitz.

Yeah I thought getting rid of fitz would leave the least suspicion on me. I blocked you cird because you seemed the most likely one remaining to be cop but fortunately you weren't.

Why would killing me take suspicion off you? I was targetting you as scum.

Well you were pretty much the only one who really was suspicious of me. If you lived to day 3, that would have given you a greater chance to convince others.

I understand, but I would have thought getting rid of me...who was the only one really targetting you...would have brought attention to you. We'll never know as the game ended so quickly. Good game