Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[Yaw]

Vote Count:

Mastin (6): Zachrulez, Debonair Danny DiPietro, VP Baltar, Kmd4390, Benmage, camn
Battle Mage (2): Mastin, alexhans
camn (1): SpyreX
SpyreX (1): jammer
jammer (1): Battle Mage
alexhans (1): GIEFF

Not Voting: Cephrir, blackcatcontract, SensFan

8 to lynch

[GIEFF]

Check out camn's wishy-washy posts about alex. She finds him juuuuust scummy enough to distance if he flips scum, but of course not scummy enough to put any pressure on him.

He (

Battle Mage

) kept saying "bro".
He, I think, is/was being intentionally argumentative regarding NICKNAMES, of all things.

Understand, though.. I am not sure he is actually SCUMMY.. just scummiER than alex. Right now I am inclined to think town vs. town on them.

alexhans
I don't like his crazy-long posts. I don't know if I think they are scummy.. but I feel like they cover up the REAL alex.
Null read.

---------------

You were reading when made a big fuss about me not calling out the detractors of the Camn wagon right?

When alex made a big fuss, you mean? If so, can you link me to it?

[SpyreX]

Ok, I am over my bout of peevishness with this game.

Spyrex-Could you explain that vote in detail?

Did you miss my entire talk with Capt. Condescending regarding Camn and everything else going on? I have to assume you did.

Attn: GIEFF, benmage, spyrex, and camn---the time has come to do the right thing and vote Mastin. Scum are clearly trying to make this day utterly useless and Mastin's lynch will tell us information about his most ardent defenders. Furthermore, Mastin's scum meta is to lurk when he gets behind. Be pro-town and help this game move forward.

I'll give him 2 days to explain and then I'll vote. Access issues (which I apparently missed him saying in his games) or not doesn't change the fact it was a slew of posts in other games before the issues and not addressing this one. 2 days is plenty even with a shitty connection to say something relevant in this game.

for crying out loud! 2 weeks is not an "overly long day" for a large normal!

BM

Two weeks? No. Going on 40 pages? Yes.

Unvote

- new post time.

[GIEFF]

Capt Condescending

You started the condescension, Spyrex - I was just continuing it. I will drop it if you do. I'm sorry I was snotty; I should not have been.

[camn]

FYI to everyone...

GEIFF cant be trusted.
He is very selective about what he quotes.
And he calls things whatever he wants, regardless of reality.
My opinion on alex has naturally developed as the game progresses. I like him less and less.

If you look at me in iso you can see more than one NON-wishywashy posts re: him

eg, my 44, 102, 111, 112, 117 and 118.

These don't fit into Geiffs current attack.. so naturally they are ignored.

Not that I think Geiff even made a worthwhile point.. I don't think the posts he quoted were wishy-washy. I think they were specific as to my opinion at the time.
Of course, now, for the rest of the game, I could easily see GEIFF calling me "wishy-washy" toward alex, as if it were true.

that is all.

[SpyreX]

Ok, this has gone to ridiculous speed:

Unvote Mastin

I suspect alex and camn are buddies.

I asked them both questions about the other

Alex claims to find camn scummy, claims to want to save Mastin, yet refuses to vote her to do so. Hmm.

I also asked camn if she would prefer a Mastin or alex lynch, and she chose Mastin.

I hope everybody agrees that this is a shocking amount of coaching, a shocking amount of defense, and a very lame pretense of finding camn scummy.

Alex had a chance to vote for a player he CLAIMS to find scummy, with a significant number of people behind her lynch, in order to stave off the lynch of another player he CLAIMS to find townie, but instead chooses to vote for Battle Mage, because apparently other people defending camn confuses him.

If I can't convince you guys to lynch camn today, can we please lynch alex instead?

Do you agree that alex was coaching camn?

Do you think a townie would coach anybody as much as alex has coached camn, regardless of camn's alignment?

I admit it was my suspicion of camn (and BM's accusation of coaching) that first got me to dig back and look at all this stuff, but it's pretty clear that when camn does something scummy, alex mentions it to either tell her to stop, or just warn her that her behavior is scummy. His quotes speak for themselves. He threw her on a couple scum-lists for appearances, but his refusal to wagon her to save Mastin lends credence to my theory that it's just distancing.

And as camn says, alex's excuse for not voting camn to save Mastin ("people defending her is WIFOM-y!") rings pretty hollow.

Which do you think would incriminate alex

more

at this point - Mastin-town or Mastin-scum?

So, lets parse this out:

1.) Alex and Camn are scum together.
2.) Alex is scum regardless of camn's alignment.
3.) Alex is incriminated regardless of Mastin's alignment.
4.) Alex wants to "save" Mastin, but is unwilling to vote Camn.

A few things:

1 & 2 don't really jive. Thats a pretty solid case of having your cake and eating it too. 3 follows this pattern. 4 makes far more sense IF Mastin & Alex are scum together than if Alex is scum and Mastin is town.

So, in essence, 4 is saying that Alex, Mastin and Camn are scum together and Alex is trying to save one partner but not by voting for the other.

Welp, case closed I guess.

Which begs the case if this thought process is true why would you unvote Mastin to vote Alex IF they are scum together? Its mountainous - one scum is just as good as another.

However, if GIEFF is scum and this is a whole pot of fail this makes far more sense.

- If Mastin is scum then GIEFF buys him another day by shifting the wagon.
- If Mastin is town then GIEFF leaves an obvious mislynch for another day.

So, we go around the horn. I'll vote Mastin, but I'd rather see a GIEFF wagon.

Vote: GIEFF

[Benmage]

@ Benmage: It was my understanding that scum could only post during the QT during the night phase. Am I incorrect?

Oh, don't know these forums rules in an out. The only QT i had was mason, and it was day and night.

[Benmage]

Benmage, have you been scum before with a daytalk QT?

Actually not me, but I believe someone else in a previous game of mine confirmed they had seen day talk scum before.

[GIEFF]

1.) Alex and Camn are scum together.
2.) Alex is scum regardless of camn's alignment.
3.) Alex is incriminated regardless of Mastin's alignment.
4.) Alex wants to "save" Mastin, but is unwilling to vote Camn.

I personally think that Alex and Camn are scum together.

However, a lot of people do not want to lynch camn, so I know I can't convince them of #1.

And so, I ask, from their perspective, even if camn WERE town, do they agree that Alex coaching camn is scummy? Trying to prove #2.


I do not think Mastin and alex are scum together. Read my posts more closely, Spyrex. Alex came back soon after Mastin hit L-1 to say "I am against this lynch." But he did not do anything to stop it. It looks to me like somebody wanting to gain town-points from being against someone he KNOWS will flip town.

-----

Camn, do you think alex's behavior towards you is coaching?

[Benmage]

Do one of those avg posts and characters again, I wanna see if there's been much of a change.

[GIEFF]

@ Benmage: It was my understanding that scum could only post during the QT during the night phase. Am I incorrect?

Oh, don't know these forums rules in an out. The only QT i had was mason, and it was day and night.

Really? No QT as scum in a newbie game?

Mind if I ask Flameaxe to verify that?

[camn]

Camn, do you think alex's behavior towards you is coaching?

No.. I agree with Zach(ithink) that it is just his style. It is part of his style I dont like, and I seem to remember not likeing it for similar reasons in mini799...

Now.. a question for YOU:

And so, I ask, from their perspective, even if camn WERE town, do they agree that Alex coaching camn is scummy? Trying to prove #2.

What would be alex's scum-motivation to do this?

I think that ALEX thinks that coaching is pro-town. He has an IC mentality, and considers us all newbies... thus making it a null-tell in his case.

[SpyreX]

I personally think that Alex and Camn are scum together.

However, a lot of people do not want to lynch camn, so I know I can't convince them of #1.

And so, I ask, from their perspective, even if camn WERE town, do they agree that Alex coaching camn is scummy? Trying to prove #2.

I do not think Mastin and alex are scum together. Read my posts more closely, Spyrex. Alex came back soon after Mastin hit L-1 to say "I am against this lynch." But he did not do anything to stop it. It looks to me like somebody wanting to gain town-points from being against someone he KNOWS will flip town.

Wait, its not adding up:

1.) Alex and Camn are scum together.
2.) You can't get Camn lynched.
3.) Mastin and Alex are NOT scum together.

Deductive conclusions:
a.) Alex is the right lynch (true).
b.) Mastin is town

...

unvote
vote mastin

go sens go

Final conclusion based on your own statements

objectively

:

You wanted Sensfan to actively hammer someone you think is town.

[GIEFF]

What would be alex's scum-motivation to do this?

If alex were town, he would think that scummy actions require pressure, not correcting.

If alex is scum and you are town, he would know you aren't scum, and scumhunting isn't really his concern, so he'd let it slide. Scum buddy to townies all the time, coaching would be for a similar reason.

If alex is scum and you are scum, the motivation for coaching is obvious.



If that is really alex's playstyle, I would like to see someone show me alex coaching any other player in this game anywhere close to as often as he's coached you.

[GIEFF]

No, Spyrex. I wanted alex to THINK I wanted Sens to quick-hammer Mastin. I knew sens would not hammer, because of this:

I'm not going to end discussion and quickhammer.
I meant that as in days dragging on and on without anyone having the balls to hammer.

I had my alex-camn buddying post ready a while ago, but before I posted it I wanted to see if alex would vote for camn to save Mastin, as another piece of evidence. Refusing to do so is much more telling if alex believes Mastin is about to be lynched.

[GIEFF]

Zach, I think I found what you were talking about, in Post 694

Why haven't you called SensFan or KMD on their Camn defenses? Or do CAPS shock you?

You know as well as I do that alex was trying to demonstrate inconsistent play on your part, as you attacked alex for defending Mastin, but did NOT attack Sens/KMD for defending camn. He was not asking you to attack them for defending her; he was trying to weaken your case on him.

[SpyreX]

....

So it was all a trap?

[GIEFF]

At Benmage's request:

[mrow]Player[col]Posts / Day[col]1,000's of Chars / Day[col]GIEFF[col]11.5[col]7.3[col]alexhans[col]4[col]5.8[col]Battle Mage[col]8.3[col]3.1[col]camn[col]8.6[col]3.1[col]Benmage[col]7.1[col]2.3[col]Kmd4390[col]6.6[col]2[col]jammer[col]2.9[col]1.6[col]VP Baltar[col]4[col]1.4[col]Zachrulez[col]5.5[col]1.4[col]Mastin[col]1.6[col]1.3[col]SpyreX[col]1.9[col]1.1[col]SensFan[col]3.2[col]0.9[col]blackcatcontract[col]2.5[col]0.8[col]Kairyuu[col]1.2[col]0.5[col]Debonair Danny DiPietro[col]1.4[col]0.5[col]Cephrir[col]0.5[col]0.2[col][col][col][col]

camn

Vote: VP BALTHAR (Post 6)
unvote Vote :GIEFF (Post 65)
UNVOTE (Post 146)
Vote : Gieff (Post 150)
UNVOTE vote: Benmage (Post 305)
UNVOTE (Post 438)
VOTE: MASTIN (Post 454)
UNvote Vote Camn (Post 645)
MORE CAMN VOTES PLEASE!!!!!! (Post 682)
UNVOTE VOTE: MASTIN (Post 868)

Mastin

Mastin Votes: Mastin (Post 7)
Mastin Unvotes: Mastin, Mastin Votes: Battle Mage (Post 11)

blackcatcontract

vote: alexhans (Post 8)
vote: jammer (Post 23)

Debonair Danny DiPietro

Vote: Kairyuu (Post 10)
Unvote; Vote: Cephrir (Post 60)
Unvote; Vote: Mastin (Post 249)

alexhans

Vote broomhead (Post 13)
FoS Benmage (Post 95)
Vote SensFan (Post 278)
For all of you who don't like wall posts... Imagine this as several posts for several people.... You can JUST SKIM those who are not directed at you if you are so annoyed with my posting style. (Post 685)
Unvote, Vote Battle Mage (Post 875)

SpyreX

Unvote, Vote: Zachrules (Post 231)
Unvote, vote: Cephrir (Post 538)
Unvote, Vote Debonair Danny DiPietro (Post 651)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 739)
Unvote, Vote Camn (Post 793)
Unvote (Post 903)
Vote: GIEFF (Post 906)

jammer

Vote: SensFan (Post 22)
Vote: GIEFF (Post 57)
Unvote: GIEFF Vote: Cephrir (Post 205)
Unvote: Cephrir Vote: GIEFF (Post 426)
Mod: Prod Mastin. Unvote: Gieff Vote: Mastin (Post 711)
Unvote (Post 751)
Vote: Spyrex (Post 807)

GIEFF

Vote: jammer (Post 31)
unvote jammer (Post 56)
Vote Mastin (Post 70)
FOS alexhans (Post 128)
FoS camn (Post 339)
UnvoteVote: Battle Mage (Post 362)
unvotevote camnHOS BattleMage (Post 411)
confirm vote: camn (Post 676)
UnvoteVote mastin (Post 726)
unvotevote spyrex (Post 794)
unvotevote mastin (Post 871)
Unvote Mastin (Post 877)
Vote alex (Post 883)

Cephrir

Zachrulez

Vote: Gieff (Post 46)
Unvote:Vote: Mastin (Post 63)
FOS: Alexhans (Post 298)

SensFan

Vote" jammer (Post 47)
Vote: GIEFF (Post 209)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 270)
Unvote, Vote: GIEFF (Post 416)
Unvote: Vote Mastin (Post 473)
Unvote. (Post 474)

VP Baltar

Vote GIEFF (Post 113)
Unvote, Vote: Battle Mage (Post 144)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 237)
Unvote, Vote:alexhans (Post 524)
Unvote, Vote Mastin (Post 745)

Benmage

Vote Mastin (Post 83)
unvote (Post 194)
Vote Mastin (Post 230)
Vote Camn (Post 644)
vote Mastin (Post 866)

Battle Mage

Vote: Ben (Post 69)
Unvote, Vote: Mastin (Post 72)
Unvote, Vote: Alex Hans (Post 111)
Confirm Vote: Alex (Post 143)
Unvote, Vote: Gieff (Post 214)
Unvote, Vote: VP Baltar (Post 354)
Unvote, Vote: Camn (Post 659)
Unvote (Post 692)
Vote: Camn (Post 753)
Unvote, Vote: Jammer (Post 809)

Kmd4390

Vote Cephrir (Post 253)
Unvote, Vote GIEFF (Post 320)
Unvote, Vote Alexhans (Post 720)
Unvote, Vote Mastin (Post 806)

[Zachrulez]

OK, so just lynch alex for coaching a player that acts scummy instead of attacking her.

Or lynch him for "undeniably playing scummy," as a wise poster once said.

This attempt to goad me into voting Alex REALLY leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth and makes me think Gieff is looking REALLY hard for a non-Mastin case that will stick.

[Benmage]

Mind if I ask Flameaxe to verify that?

Yeah, go nuts. Why would i lie about that... I was scum in both my newbie games. 728/720.

[GIEFF]

....

So it was all a trap?

Yep.

Post 717: Battle Mage notices alex coaching camn. I read back through alex's iso, and see ODDLES of camn-coaching. I know if I accuse him of it right away, he'll just deny it and never do it again. And so, the wild GIEFF decies to lay a cunning trap:

Post 749:

Hey camn - would you prefer lynching Mastin or alex?

Post 771:

Alex - if you vote for camn, I will unvote Mastin to vote camn.

Note the itty-bitty non-GIEFF-like posts, to be sure they are not missed.

Post 793:
I'm not getting any answers, and alex is MIA, so I unvote Mastin, and wait.... wait... and then, like some sort of super-bad-ass mafia-viper, I STRIKE:

Post 870:

unvote
vote mastin

And then li'l old alex-mouse decided to come back to the thread (Weird coincidence, right?), to say, in the very next post:

wow... 6 pages in 1 day...

I'll catch up tomorrow... and post trying to make it brief.

please, try not to hammer before I can post.

Oh OK, tomorrow. Alex obviously thinks Mastin is about to be lynched. He wants to be sure to get his town-points in, so claims he will post tomorrow (of course, thinking tomorrow he will be sitting in his comfy little quick-topic, deciding who to kill next, and laughing about all the wonderful town-points he's earned).

And when I gave him an opportunity to make this all go away, to save Mastin for another day (as he claims to want) by once more offering him to trade a camn-vote for a Mastin-unvote, he refuses, instead switching to Battle Mage. Which reveals that both his suspicion for camn AND his desire to avoid a Mastin lynch are fraudulent.

[GIEFF]

Zach, if I were trying to protect Mastin, would I risk putting him at L-1, even if just for 30 minutes?

If I were trying to protect Mastin, why would I give the first real reasons for his wagon? A Mastin lynch would be OK, but I think an alex-lynch would be better.



As many others have said before, the two most-agreed-upon lynch candidates are alex and Mastin. YOU YOURSELF find alex scummy. What's the big deal?

[SpyreX]

Unvote

I hate this game sometimes.

I follow the process. Waiting for Mastin.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, if I were trying to protect Mastin, would I risk putting him at L-1, even if just for 30 minutes?

If I were trying to protect Mastin, why would I give the first real reasons for his wagon? A Mastin lynch would be OK, but I think an alex-lynch would be better.



As many others have said before, the two most-agreed-upon lynch candidates are alex and Mastin. YOU YOURSELF find alex scummy. What's the big deal?

WIFOM...

WAIT FOR IT!...

Next Gieff is going to say I'm scum with Camn and Alex.

[GIEFF]

You are paranoid, Zach.