Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[Yaw]

Vote Count:

Battle Mage (3): alexhans, Zachrulez, Kmd4390
Debonair Danny DiPietro (2): SpyreX, Benmage
GIEFF (1): Battle Mage
SensFan (1): GIEFF

Not Voting: SensFan, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Vi, jammer

6 to lynch

[jammer]

Can I see the case or a link to the case on battlemage?

[Battle Mage]

i'll also point out, it seems your vote is entirely based on my prediction that i will die today. Kinda ironic, but hey-ho. Whilst i've heard, and probably cited, "giving-up scumtell" before, again, it doesnt really apply to me, as im sure previous games will show. You have no case.

BM

I was referring to your "giving-up" scumtell defense.


All I said was that you don't use the word "honestly" in games where you are scum - that's not a defense at all, and you know it.

You've looked at this game too right? It is a defence. And, drop the attitude.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Spyrex and BM:

You both find me very scummy.
Yet you both think that if I AM town, I will be (or should have already been) night-killed.


But why? If I'm so scummy, doesn't it makes sense for scum to try to leave me alive as a potential mislynch?

But, you see, nobody really saw you as lynchable until today. Your argument will only kick in from tonight onwards, and ours is valid NOW.

And wouldn't scum also try to

keep

my mislynch viable by, just as an example, saying that I should have been nightkilled if I were town?

Nice as that is, i pointed out when we first discussed this, the only person who actually voiced this view, was me. And i'm town. So, go figure.

BM

[Benmage]

@benmage, You being scum was most a feeling, partly had to do with the reaction to Camn suspicions.

You're far far away from the other 2 in any way.

This doesn't exactly instill confidence in me especially when you list people like SpryeX as town, and I'm not even neutral...

[GIEFF]

BM, I am tired of you telling me what I mean.

I was not defending you, I was gauging your reaction. And I didn't mention the "giving up scumtell" defense, which is what was actually being referred to.

My meta did not suggest Cephrir was scum.



And how is your argument valid? Why would scum kill a townie who looks so scummy?

[Battle Mage]

BM, I am tired of you telling me what I mean.

I was not defending you, I was gauging your reaction. And I didn't mention the "giving up scumtell" defense, which is what was actually being referred to.

My meta did not suggest Cephrir was scum.

The thing is, what you try to say, and what actually comes across, can be completely different things. Whether you like it or not, your meta DID suggest Cephrir was scum. It's not just my opinion-everyone who commented on that, agreed with me, if i recall. And you can't say thats happened alot this game.
Likewise, your assessment of the use of words like "honestly" and "genuine", indicates i am town, because you said i dont use them as scum, and i have used them quite a bit here. Whether it's intentional or not, you've come up with a defence for my appeal to emotion being allegedly scummy.

Ftr, you defending me at this point, with such good research, read as a towntell. And i was considering unvoting. But, as it was apparently unintentional, my vote can stand.

And how is your argument valid? Why would scum kill a townie who looks so scummy?

Your scumminess has only really come to the fore of discussion today.

BM

[alexhans]

KMD (When he comes back): I take that you think now that it's BM+Alex+GIEFF?

Looking at KMD's Columbus Post I see that he wrote that 4 of 6 players were scum. I thought I was practically the only one who thought about 4 scum.

BM: Do you think that saying "I'm town" every post helps you?

I don't like appeal to emotion. Benmage, Camn and BM have all done it and it sucks. In Benmage's case... it was pretty useful for him since many people had ended up he was town due to it. In Camn's case, I chose to ignore it altoguether. Wich is what I'm doing about BM's AtE.

[Benmage]

You still think we have 4 scum in this game??

[GIEFF]

I apologize for the length of this post - I have been trying to be succinct, but this point is complicated, and this was the best I could do. Please read it.

-------

Likewise, your assessment of the use of words like "honestly" and "genuine", indicates i am town, because you said i dont use them as scum, and i have used them quite a bit here.

This is completely wrong. You are using faulty logic, the same faulty logic you used to mislynch Cephrir.

The point is that you hardly ever use the word "honestly" as town, either, and so meta arguments hold no water either way. And so a defense based on this concept is not a valid one.


You used similarly flawed logic in the Cephrir lynch, Battle Mage, by just looking at one alignment possibility:

You've already seen that Cephrir does not play like this as town. There shouldnt even be an issue here.

But the point that I kept bringing up, and that you kept ignoring, was that HE DIDN'T PLAY THAT WAY AS SCUM EITHER, pro-town cult notwithstanding. It's not enough to just look at one alignment possibility - you have to look at

both

and decide which is more likely.

For example, I've never done in-depth activity analyses before, as I have in this game.

1. GIEFF has never done this before as scum, so he's more likely to be town.
2. GIEFF has never done this before as town, so he's more likely to be scum.
3. GIEFF hasn't done it as EITHER alignment, so meta arguments should be ignored - the behavior itself is more important

Obviously, #3 is the only correct statement.


Do you see my point, BM? Why the logic in #1 and #2 logic is faulty, and how easy it is for scum to just cherry pick one argument and ignore the other?

You chose #1 (I've never done it as scum) to defend yourself, and you chose #2 (Cephrir never did this as town) to attack Cephrir.


------------

Your scumminess has only really come to the fore of discussion today.

Demonstrably false. Ask Benmage, Zach, Spyrex, Sens, jammer, or KMD. You will need to find a different excuse for wondering (or pretending to wonder) why scum didn't NK me - this one won't fly. I have been the #2 or #3 lynch-target for most of this game.

Whether you like it or not, your meta DID suggest Cephrir was scum. It's not just my opinion-everyone who commented on that, agreed with me, if i recall.

Demonstrably false. Ask Zach. I didn't see anybody else referencing my meta, which clearly showed Cephrir was LESS active as town, but NEVER this inactive, as either scum or town.




Another question, BM: were you already aware you used the word "honestly" a lot in this game, or did you iso-read yourself to check?

[Zachrulez]

Gieff's 1859 rehashes points that should have been clear ages ago.

Battle Mage's repeated attempts to rewrite history to suit his own ends convinces me that he needs to die, and thus needs more votes on him.

[SpyreX]

Hi Vi!

Hi WORDS I've missed you. Wait, no I haven't. In fact you've been coming around this way far too often. Stop stealing my newspapers.

I'm stoked to the rafters having to ask for a nice clear point by point again on what this now moved to "rewriting history" is.

[GIEFF]

Spyrex - can you address my post 1840?

[Zachrulez]

Hi Vi!

Hi WORDS I've missed you. Wait, no I haven't. In fact you've been coming around this way far too often. Stop stealing my newspapers.

I'm stoked to the rafters having to ask for a nice clear point by point again on what this now moved to "rewriting history" is.

Are you even reading the game?

His assertion that there has been no significant discussion on Gieff's scumminess until today is just one blatant example of his repeated attempts to rewrite history.

This repeated attempt to shove the whole "why hasn't Gieff been NKed yet" argument down our throats is convincing me that Gieff is actually town.

[SpyreX]

Spyrex and BM:

You both find me very scummy.
Yet you both think that if I AM town, I will be (or should have already been) night-killed.

But why? If I'm so scummy, doesn't it makes sense for scum to try to leave me alive as a potential mislynch?

And wouldn't scum also try to keep my mislynch viable by, just as an example, saying that I should have been nightkilled if I were town?

Again, put on the scum hat:

If you start to swing at ALL towards "town" you are by nature a very plausible NK.

If there were many "Ohh shi obvtown" players this game yes it would be a different ball of wax but, get this, there aren't. We've had an idiotic amount of lurking (which is always going to be left for mislynches over a "scummy active player").

So, again. Risk/Reward makes DDD a far superior lynch at this juncture. Further, if you are town I'd eat all the hats if you make it to endgame.

Are you even reading the game?

His assertion that there has been no significant discussion on Gieff's scumminess until today is just one blatant example of his repeated attempts to rewrite history.

This repeated attempt to shove the whole "why hasn't Gieff been NKed yet" argument down our throats is convincing me that Gieff is actually town.

Nope. Dont read. Never learned how. It makes mafia hard.

It's a much nicer way of saying "Hay, condense this case into a readable format so that it can be discussed that way via 15 different quote wars"

And, yes lets look at some key words:

significant

discussion.

If he's making this all up show me the significant discussion pre-today about GIEFF. It doesn't exist. Of the examples GIEFF gave showing all the "discussion about how he is scummy" only MINE really was "discussion" - and not even strong at that because there has been such an influx of professional lurking this game.

[GIEFF]

ZACH used the words "significant discussion." What Battle Mage said was that my "scumminess has only come to the forefront today," which, again, is obviously very wrong.

Your point about the lack of obvtown players to NK is a good one, Spyrex. But you said that there is NO WAY scum can keep letting me live, which doesn't make a lot of sense coming from the same player who said this:

As for who my suspect is I'm pretty sure a vote should make that really clear. The fact you keep just swishing by this is just confirming my theory that is spelled out more than once that one of you (probably you) is being a vomit-waterfall that Ceph is hiding in.

So which is it? Is my high activity and posting rate a hindrance to the mafia or a help?


This really stinks of either one or both of you and BM trying to set up my mislynch later on. BM has to ignore reality (people find me scummy), and you have to ignore your previous claims (you said that my "vomit" was HELPING the mafia, not hurting it) in order to make it seem suspicious that I am still alive.

[SpyreX]

I assumed my conjecture was under the premise that we, ya know, hit a scum so that we're not looking at fat-lylo and just regular type.

And are we going to argue the difference between "significant discussion" and "coming to the forefront"?

If you are town AND calibrate your posts then its a hindrance to the mafia.
If you are town AND continue to spew then its a help.
If you are scum then you are a help.

Thus:

1.) If scenario one happens then you will be NK'd. You are active and with this being mountainous have to go the way of the dodo.
--- See the fantabulous lurker set: as scum, what would you prefer to have around?
--- This scenario can ONLY occur if we lynch scum. So, until that happens we are stuck in scenarios two and three.

2.) Two and three are pretty much indistinguishable at this point.

[GIEFF]

And are we going to argue the difference between "significant discussion" and "coming to the forefront"?

I don't want to, but you are the one who tried to make that distinction. BM tried to claim people haven't called me scummy very much, and that's the bottom line, semantics be damned.

Why is scenario 1 only possible if we lynch scum? I don't understand what you mean by that, or by the fat-lylo and regular type.


Do you think I've calibrated my posts recently? From your recent posts, it looks like you think I'm still spewing. If so, then again, why would mafia kill a player ripe for a mislynch, who will help distract the town with the spew?


Another way scum could try to get me to become less active is to claim that my activity is scummy, and threaten me to stop. This strategy would work even better than a night-kill, because this way I am still left alive for a mislynch.

[SpyreX]

1 shot snipes are not "forefront" discussion. Which is all but necessary for significance to be had in the discussion.

Fat-lylo is 9/4 (whcih I doubt) or the 7/3 which we are approaching. You could be left for a mislycnh at fat lylo. Regular type 3/1 or PROBABLY even 5/2 would not happen.

Considering I think this case on BM is moonbeams no. You are spewing LESS (but still spewing) but calibrated no so much.

I love the last line snipa' though.

[GIEFF]

Spyrex, they were far from 1 shot snipes.

Read This post.

In it, BM says:

Gieff's play yesterday was far from stellar, and tbh, i'll be surprised if he isnt NKed tonight.

Stop trying to argue out of this with semantics. It doesn't matter is it's "significant" or in the "forefront." Many people called me scummy over many posts, and I am high on many people's lynch-lists. BM thinks I played poorly. Scum should have nothing to fear from a player who MANY people find scummy, especially if that player is playing so poorly.

[SpyreX]

Ok, I'll stop playing semantics:

Show me a wagon, a for reallies wagon. You know that whole "I am actually putting you down for lynch because you're scummy".

But, maybe if you're point is "everyone thinks I'm scummy but I'm not getting lynched" then sure, you're right.

Here you go:

Unvote: Vote GIEFF

[GIEFF]

That isn't the point at all, spyrex.

The point is that many people find me scummy, which means I am ripe for a mislynch, which means it makes little sense for scum to NK me. I don't see why this is so difficult to understand.

Why does there have to have been a past wagon for my lynch to be likely?

[SpyreX]

Because in this game you are making some kind of connection between "saying you are scummy" and that equating "saving me for a mislynch".

When, get this, this game has been a debacle. It's far, far harder to find someone who ISNT scummy in the eyes of at LEAST half the game than someone who is.

As for poorly, yea, BM isn't the only one. The camn business never made sense. This case on BM is rainbows. If I do an analysis on you I think I'll find snipes at almost everyone.

However, that all aside there are too many people actively lurking for them to all be town. Period. If that is the case we lose.

So, when I say "You are scummy, but you are active versus them" and get this "AHA" business in response well.

You MAY be scum. In fact I'm starting to swing that way hard for the umpteenth time. However, if I am wrong about you, there is much more of a negative impact than one of the lurkers.

Not to mention if you are so "ripe for mislynch" then where is the voting history to show ripeness?

So, I don't get it. At all. But, you are right - sniping but not votes would be a great place for scum to sit on their buddy.

[GIEFF]

Because in this game you are making some kind of connection between "saying you are scummy" and that equating "saving me for a mislynch".

I am not. Many have called me scummy, but you and Battle Mage are the only two who have suggested that scum should try to kill me. THAT is what looks like saving me for a mislynch.

It makes no sense to me that the camn business didn't make sense to others. She didn't seem like she was trying to find scum.


I think you have explained your own behavior well enough that I can understand it from a Spy-town perspective, i.e. a town-GIEFF lynch hurts the town more than a town-lurker lynch. I don't necessarily think the town-explanation makes more sense than the scum-explanation, but I do follow the logic.


However, I see NO possible town-explanation for Battle Mage's behavior, and I don't see why you are defending him, especially by resorting to semantics.

Did you read the post of his that I linked?

You MAY be scum. In fact I'm starting to swing that way hard for the umpteenth time.

Had you ever swung back the other way? I assumed you've thought me scum this whole time.

------

BM, you said the camn-NK implicated me - why is that?

[SpyreX]

However, I see NO possible town-explanation for Battle Mage's behavior, and I don't see why you are defending him, especially by resorting to semantics.

The logic is real simple:

There are two players I have solid town reads on: Battle Mage and benmage.

You are posting a attack on one of them that I can't even get nailed down to WHAT it is.

Additionally, this argument about semantics is because its really a slippery worm - I'm trying to pin down what you are aiming for and the bar keeps moving around.

Had you ever swung back the other way? I assumed you've thought me scum this whole time.

It moves from super scummy to "what in the hell" to "ok what" to super scummy again. It does this a lot.

When I ask "what is the actual case?" and don't really get a solid reply. THEN we move into this business with BM and I being scumpartners with some grand machination to get you lynched.... but not now, later.

So, yea.