Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[EmpTyger]

I think I may need to actually read this game at some point.

Move: Qf3

We *don’t* have an threat the kingside. Because threatening Qxh7 ties up our queen and knight, while black can defend against it with only one rook. That’s *bad*. And I don’t see how we can effectively supplement our attack with our rooks or pawns; if we try, black has ample opportunity to counter with his pieces.

Rf1 isn’t as bad as I thought. But it doesn’t do achieve anything except preventing black from moving his f-pawn. Which Qf3 also does. But Qf3 also lets us reposition our queen to a better location. Whereas the rook can’t go anywhere from f1.

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IH:

@Emp: Keyword in your quote is 'actually'.
<snip>

Explain? Because it definitely seems like you “actually” argued for Rf1 in [1157]:

I never actually argued for Rf1, but anyways...

A draw? I see victory!

There are better moves than Rhe1. We're already covering the rook with the knight.

move: Rf1

Rf1 clears a path for the pawns to move up, and we'll easily take the knight back anyways. Besides, for those who can see a little further, check out the nasty surprise that this move holds in store for Black.

Also, what happened to the aggression you were so gungho about when you went with Re6 over g4? How is Rf1 more aggressive than Qf3?

---

Mastin:
(Forget for a moment how you can’t seem to count to 6.)

Someone suggested that you’ve made a mistake. Or, let’s give you the benefit of the doubt- that you *might* have made a mistake. And this mistake is ridiculously easy to check.

And you don’t.

You don’t even try.

If this were a lynching game, this would voteworthy. You’re not trying for a [town] win. You’re making excuses to cover antitown play.

[Goatrevolt]

Rhe1

This move forces the immediate rook trade. However, I see us losing a pawn in the long run.

Rhe1, Rxe6
Nxe6, Qf6
Nxf4, Bxf4
gxf4, Qxf4+
Qe3, Qxh2+

And we lose a pawn.

Rf1

Rf1, Rf8

And the queen forces a knight retreat. The other alternative being h4 to protect the Knight, but that just opens us to fxg3 and a protected passed pawn.

Qf3

Provides no extra benefit over Rf1, and also simultaneously takes away the pressure on h7. Strictly worse than Rf1.

Kd1

Defensive. Protects our king from later threatened pins/checks/discovered checks from the queen or bishop along the black diagonal. I like this move more than the alternatives presented thus far, but it just seems to...meh. We're basically just saying "Hey, black, move again, although a few moves down the line you might not have a check you would have otherwise had."

--------

So...

g4

Booooyah. We give black the passed pawn, but f3 is a veritable minefield, so I don't see black advancing that bad boy any time soon. g4 prevents black from being able to gain any possible advantages in terms of fxg3 shenanigans. It also allows us to play h4 and continue our onslaught on black's kingside.

Errr...damnit. Never mind. I think this move fails to Rxe6.

------------

Move Kd1

I'm going to move here for now, but I'm going to keep an eye out for something better. g4 might still be good, but I need to look through it more.

[EmpTyger]

Qf3 threatens Qxd5 and Qh5. Rf1 threatens nothing.
Qf3 also prevents the pawn loss if black tries to trade, unlike Rhe1.

And as I’ve already said, maintaining the pressure on h7 doesn’t help us, not when it costs us more to pressure than it costs black to defend.

[Goatrevolt]

Qh5 isn't very threatening, but you're dead right about Qxd5. I didn't even notice that...

Unmove

[Goatrevolt]

What's the response to Rf5?

[Indigo Heron]

@Emp: The 'aggression I was so gungho about' was because deadline was approaching, and I just wanted to make the game move (we were waterlogged for that day). As it turns out, Black made some bad (tentatively speaking) moves, so we weren't punished that badly.

Also, right now, Black has to attack, or pay the price. We just sit back and wait for them to come. All we have to do is keep our cool, and we'll pull through.

Also, Black does not have the opportunity. We have the initiative. Black's bishop is stuck, and we have a pawn majority on both flanks.

[Indigo Heron]

EBWOP:

@Emp:

Also, your argument concerning Rf1 is flawed. You said that after Rf1 Rh6, Black will come out top. I think you're blind.

Rf1 Rh6? Rxh6 Qxg5 Rxd6 fxg3+ Qe3 Qxe3+ Kxe3 and does Black have anything else left? The passed pawn is all laid to waste for Black.

I'm interested in seeing how you reply to this.

@Goatrevolt:

Rf1, Rf8

And the queen forces a knight retreat. The other alternative being h4 to protect the Knight, but that just opens us to fxg3 and a protected passed pawn.

The passed pawn is easily countered. Why can't people see that? Why can't people see that fxg3 is the least of our worries regarding that move?

[EmpTyger]

Goatrevolt:
I don’t see a response that doesn’t result in them losing at least a pawn. And I would rather not explain which lines lose more and which lose less- and I don’t have the time for anyhow, and we're too close to deadline besides. So I would like to instead make the following statement:

I am confident enough to stand behind Qf3 with my life. That is: if we lose material as a result, then if we later are forced to resort to lynching, I will offer myself as the first lynch.

Can anyone else say that about the move that they are advocating?

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IH:
I still want to know why you tried to deny you were arguing for Rf1.

Also, deadline’s approaching now too, so how is your attitude regarding aggression any different here?

And I did already reply to this:

Also, your argument concerning Rf1 is flawed. You said that after Rf1 Rh6, Black will come out top. I think you're blind.

Rf1 Rh6? Rxh6 Qxg5 Rxd6 fxg3+ Qe3 Qxe3+ Kxe3 and does Black have anything else left? The passed pawn is all laid to waste for Black.

I'm interested in seeing how you reply to this.

<snip>
Rf1 isn’t as bad as I thought. But it doesn’t do achieve anything except preventing black from moving his f-pawn. Which Qf3 also does. But Qf3 also lets us reposition our queen to a better location. Whereas the rook can’t go anywhere from f1.
<snip>

[veerus]

Due to lack of better options and the possibly likely event of the mod not extending the deadline for us, I'm inclined to believe that Qf3 is our best option in time pressure all things considered.

unmove; move: Qf3

We shouldn't have rushed with Ng5.. now we're paying for it.

[Awesome Pants]

Zazier is temporarily replacing Sirdanilot! And if I forgot to mention this before Ah2190 is temproarily replacing Lawrencelot.And because of this the deadline has been extended 4 days.

[Goatrevolt]

Move Qf3

[Indigo Heron]

I still want to know why you tried to deny you were arguing for Rf1.

I didn't throw out my entire game plan for Rf1. That would be an 'actual' argument. I'm still liking Rf1, and I will not budge on this matter.

Also, deadline’s approaching now too, so how is your attitude regarding aggression any different here?

Wait, what? I was? I thought you were talking about the move per se?

[ZazieR]

Ok, I'm gonna look over the given suggestions of this day. But I've seen that Qf3 has a lot of support. I haven't read why yet, but from the look of that last bord given, it would give the rook on the f-line a lot of freedom. I don't see why we want that. It would result into a giant attack on the knight, which only the rook and the queen can protect. The rook is easy for black to take down, leaving two black pieces (the queen and the rook) to attack the knight with only the defence from the queen. Leading into a knight win for black or a knight and queen with as return a rook.
The other option would be to get the knight into safety, which would lead into a giant battle among the pawn at f4. And again, black seems to win that as they would have 4 pieces to attack, while we can only defend with 3 pieces (once again, the rook that is now at e6 can't do a thing).

Either this line of thinking is wrong, or I'm not seeing something that you are seeing.

tl;dr
In my opinion, Qf3 will lead into a lot of destruction at the least. At most, we'll lose.

[ZazieR]

P.S. I'm from the Netherlands, so I'm not sure if I have used the correct names for the pieces
If I'm correct, they are:
pawn, knight, bishop, rook, Queen and King.

[ZazieR]

First move, Rhe1.
I'm not in favor of it. As pointed out by IH, rook will go to f8, resulting into an attack from the black queen against the knight. Either a defence from h4 (resulting into fxg3 for the bishop to attack and/or an opening for the black rook), a defence from the rook (which results into a bishop - rook loss), doing nothing and let him hit (resulting into an attack around f4 again) or we leave (resulting into a battle around f4 as well)
So the only move that might be useful is the defence from the rook. And even that one is bad.

[ah2190]

Sorry about the delay, but I've been bussy with other things.

So, I'll have to look back to see what has happened.

But first,

movecount

, please!

[ZazieR]

Rf1 is for now my favorite.
It gives us a defence against a possible battle around f4. And if played correct, we can play Qf3 later without the reasons why I think it's bad stated before.

[ZazieR]

...My response for Rf8 was responding to Rhe1. Anyways,

Rf1 Rf8 h4.

Why h4?

[ZazieR]

Another move suggested was Kd1.
And again, Rf8 is a great move for black to do.
See the reasons what our options are when the knight gets attack in post 1189.
Though due to Kd1, we can have the opening better.
So I can support this move.

[ZazieR]

h4 hurts us big time after fxg3

Rhe1 Rf8
Rh6 for a killer attack

Uhm, what?
Can you explain this in more detail as I don't get what you are saying here.

[ZazieR]

I don’t really see the point of moving the h-rook. 25. Rf1 is disastrously bad: after 25… Rh6, we can’t protect against all of 26… Qxg5, Rxe6, and Rxh2+. And I don’t see any “killer attack” after 25. Rhe1 Rf8 26. Rh6. What I do see is 26… Qxg5 27. Rxd6 (am I missing something better?) fxg3+ threatening 28…gxh2. Still looking at 25. Reh1 Rf8 26. h4, but don’t see anything obviously good here.

Uhm, it's been a while since I've last played chess. So it's possible that my assumption is wrong here, but at the dots is what should be our move, right?
If so, I don't see what your problem is with Rf1.

[Indigo Heron]

...My response for Rf8 was responding to Rhe1. Anyways,

Rf1 Rf8 h4.

Why h4?

h4 protects the knight from a discovered attack instigated by Black's queen.

[Indigo Heron]

EBWOP: Also, we can play h4, since Black cannot simply play fxg3 without losing his rook (thanks to the rook on the f file).

Ok, I'm gonna look over the given suggestions of this day. But I've seen that Qf3 has a lot of support. I haven't read why yet, but from the look of that last bord given, it would give the rook on the f-line a lot of freedom. I don't see why we want that. It would result into a giant attack on the knight, which only the rook and the queen can protect. The rook is easy for black to take down, leaving two black pieces (the queen and the rook) to attack the knight with only the defence from the queen. Leading into a knight win for black or a knight and queen with as return a rook.
The other option would be to get the knight into safety, which would lead into a giant battle among the pawn at f4. And again, black seems to win that as they would have 4 pieces to attack, while we can only defend with 3 pieces (once again, the rook that is now at e6 can't do a thing).

Either this line of thinking is wrong, or I'm not seeing something that you are seeing.

tl;dr
In my opinion, Qf3 will lead into a lot of destruction at the least. At most, we'll lose.

FINALLY, someone who sees it my way!

[ZazieR]

Rhe1, Rxe6
Nxe6, Qf6
Qf3,

Made a change. Opinions?
So one question, if we do Rhe1, why would black want to trade rooks, instead of doing a different move?

[ZazieR]

g4

Booooyah. We give black the passed pawn, but f3 is a veritable minefield, so I don't see black advancing that bad boy any time soon. g4 prevents black from being able to gain any possible advantages in terms of fxg3 shenanigans. It also allows us to play h4 and continue our onslaught on black's kingside.

Errr...damnit. Never mind. I think this move fails to Rxe6.

I don't get this one. Why wouldn't black do f3? If our queen hits the pawn, wouldn't the bishop come into play at f4? Queen can't hit him or we'll lose her. Which means we lose our knight as the king has to leave, and the next move for us, the queen will be attacked. If she doesn't move to e2, we'll also lose our rook at the e-line.