/in-Vitational Game 5, Simon Mafia 2: Game Over before 832

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Might've been nice if someone had actually told me this game was starting.

Vote: ZazieR

, what the other Hokie said.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm opposed to any claiming ideas, we have no idea how many bellhops of any alignment there are and asking for a claim from them seems like a foolish outguess the mod attempt. I think LlamaFluff said all that needed to be said about a colorclaim in his first sentence of 108.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, what's scummy about Zazier?

Cliched third on a bad bandwagon and when asked for "supporting" evidence ZazieR was quick to run off and find it which seems to suggest he actually viewed the point as valid.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Lock: Green

I need to go back to work, but it would be a good idea to analyze forbiddan's reactions to the ideas of claiming to see if it makes sense from a town-bellhop point of view. I'll do it later if nobody wants to step up and handle it in the meantime.

I got nothing either way, it looks like she was trying to decide if it was a good idea or not as most of us were. Her claim was startlingly aggressive, but again that doesn't give me a read either way.

I really don't like her 176 though.

I also don't like SpyreX trying to link Battousai with myself. Try this on for size then, Battousai is my number two pick to lynch behind Zazie. Did I just blow your mind?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

My mind is totally blown to shreds. SHREDS. Of course it might have meant something if you had mentioned it BEFORE I did but now the cards show Greyhounds.

I meant I dislike the connection o' course.

Haha, somehow I figured you'd say both these things. But yeah, that's basically what would be said, DDD.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I could subscribe to this newsletter.

In fact I think I will.

Unvote, Vote DDD

Right now I'm wishing upon you the worst thing possible, and right now that seems like it's be playing another game with you. So why don't you go create an alt and go play a game with yourself.

~

So... you kind of avoided posting your thoughts on if this was a town or scum tell here. This almost looks like you lean scum tell which is really interesting.

With the proposed plans a believed claim seems like it's almost a free pass to LYLO so I'm naturally dubious.

So if you had to choose which one is it?

Probably town, I don't have a meta on FL, but aggressive to that degree is more often town than scum.

Also elaborate on 176.

It looks like cheap suspicion to me. Sure your boredom and disinterest due to not enjoying breaking a setup is anti-town, but I'm not seeing the jump from anti-town to scummy in this case.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

With the proposed plans a believed claim seems like it's almost a free pass to LYLO so I'm naturally dubious.

In fact, my plan, which she explicitly mentioned when claiming, includes lynching her.

Good point, my hypothetical objection would be that there wasn't a consensus on your plan at the time so maybe FL was hoping to use it for it's benefits but not it's disadvantages. However, that does strike me as unlikely so I think you're right.

~~~

Sure, it's possible for him to fake that, but it's simpler and more likely to assume that he isn't.

We have a winner.

~~~

It's been over a week since Zazie posted anything resembling game related content.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Goat: There is an intangible line that one can cross when you get angry and I feel that the sudden and extreme response he made crossed that line. Why he would get angry at Spyrex alone and not everyone attacking him makes me think something's up as well.

I'm not in multiple games with other people, I'll leave it at that.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

New games are new games for a reason.

I've got no beef with 99% of the players on this site on a personal level. Portraying it like such really bothers me.

And yea, in an odd set of meta-land no direct bearing on this game Gurgi knows EXACTLY why I'm very, very sure not to try to offend someone personally soo...

It's nothing personal, just some frustration, I'm sure we'll hug it out after the games and be cool.

~~~

It's still been over a week since Zazie posted anything resembling game related content.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I like to see how people react without telling them how they should. Except when I don't. Point is, as far as I'm concerned, this was a time for natural, and once it's become artificial, the degree to which it is matters less than stopping you from going down a route that the town does not need to go down.

Except, Goat had originally already asked the same question, I had cited the question as important and Goat had reiterated it recently and both of us had vote for Zazie The reactions was already going to be "articificial" (if any response in mafia can be called natural), why is it that SpyreX's furthering of this behavior changed the status quo?

DDD has stopped posting. It's not easy to strengthen a wagon when he's not posting. People, either get on this wagon so we're doing something, or tell me why you have a better option. I don't like the number of people detracting from this wagon but adding nothing of their own (it's more than three).

I'd be more active (if nothing else in rebutting arguments) if anyone could give me a reason that I'm scummy besides the fact that I didn't know the game was starting and because I was mean to SpyreX. Since those arguments are laughably bad and have already been addressed it leaves me little to talk about in that regard.

I've also got to admit I'm more than a little amused how you're passing the buck to other people to find a better option. You admit your case isn't made out of steel, but you can't be bothered to find a better one. You've kind of lost the moral high ground for criticizing other's lack of scumhunting when you admitted to that.

Nuwen is also lurking. I don't think it means anything, since I've never known her to lurk, ever.

I've played one game with her, she got replaced, she was scum. Hardly conclusive, but now that it's been brought up it bothers me.

~~

I swear to god time works differently in whatever alternate dimension Zazie is from.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Nuwen: DDD is my perennial candidate. I don't really have a reason other than he's lurking and annoys me.

Woo, woo, fantastic scumhunting there,

[insult redacted]

.

(1)DDD: Why do you think you were the only one to call me on the issue of "passing the buck"? (2) Also, I didn't remember Goat doing that. I sort of glaze over sometimes when a whole bunch happens while I'm gone. It's why I try to stay active.

(1)Because all of two people posted in between you making your definitive comment on the matter and me pointing it out and both were more concerned about responses to other things you’d said directly to them.
(2) I don’t want quote wall wars, but seriously it took me a solid minute to realize you were changing topics here. And this is a lame excuse.

~~
I’m fine with town hunting.
~~

Lists tomorrow.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Zazie: Jumped on a bad bandwagon, my problem is different than goat’s though. I don’t have a huge problem with an “lol reactions” bandwagon, but Zazie supplied evidence actually pushing the argument the bandwagon was based on. Added to the fact that we’ve not seen anything remotely useful or helpful from him and he’s my number one suspect far and away.

LG: I think I disagree with him about basically everything and him just lazily sitting on my bandwagon is pretty pathetic. However, I can’t really imagine two scum linking so obviously so right now he’s not scum in my book, just someone to keep a close eye on.

FL: Pretty sure we’ve already hashed out the reasons why it makes sense to assume she’s town for the time being.

I’m uncomfortable with Battousai and SpyreX as well at this juncture, but a quick ISO suggests to me it’s more of a gut feeling then any direct evidence.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Debonair Danny DiPietro on everyone except Zazie,

want stances on at least five other players

See 343. It basically looks like Nuwen is flailing around at this point and he arguments aren't really doing anything for me. The flailing is probably a minor town tell since I usually expect scum to behave with a bit more subtlety and tact.

I don't like Goat's reaction to his Battousi questioning. Goat is already on the record for not liking "lol reactions" wagons and that appears to me to be Batt's explanation for his vote. For Goat to accept such an explanation doesn't sit right with me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD: Do you think there's a difference between prefacing a vote by saying that it's for reactions, and saying so only after the vote?

If the statement afterwords is legitimate then they have the same value. However when it's noted before hand then intent is clear, if it's referenced after the fact then such a claim needs to considered skeptically because at that point it's just as likely to be a deflection of pressure as it is to be an honest answer.

Goat: Then I guess I'm just bothered by the fact that it looks like you uncritically took Batt at his word. Maybe he is telling the truth, but his response is also the most convenient backdoor possible and for you to, what looks like, simply accept him at his word rubs me the wrong way.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Due to the above my objections on this matter are mostly rescinded then.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Lock: Green

Elmo, where and why is the line of questioning coming from?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Vote: Battousai

The NK speculation really chafes me the wrong way.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I find little use in NK speculation because there are simply too many options. Was Patrick killed because he simply looked the most town, because of who he suspected, or maybe scum was just hunting power roles. All are viable options and I think it's a bit dubious that a townie would assume to know exactly what scum was thinking. And even if we're assuming it was because of who he suspected then it's there's some serious WIFOM involved in the entire situation. Thus I doubt it's use in scumhunting, but it looks busy and can obviously be twisted to suspect townies.

Additionally, in my admittedly limited experience with those who speculate about NKs they were more often scum than not.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

It's sometimes quite useful. I don't think it's hugely useful here, since Patrick is a good kill regardless.

Less probable that FL, Goat, or Gurgi would want Patrick dead, as a player that has marked you as townie is an asset.

Danny, you don't think this is true enough to be even slightly useful? I really can't see this kind of analysis as intrinsically scummy.

Not really useful, no. As someone else noted (I think) there's at least three scum. It's certainly possible that two of them overrode the third's opinion and it's possible that was a factor the scum didn't even consider (it's not something I really consider as scum until end game type situations). And that's in addition to the possibilities listed previously.

It's like trying to put together a puzzle where you have three times as many pieces as you need and half of all the pieces are blank. It's a fool's errand.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Also its come to my attention that Batt is very likely town. It also would be nice to hear from LG since I addressed what he brought up but its been ignored with no vote movement.

Call me a cynic, but I'm going to need more than that for me to believe you.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

On a scale from one to ten (one being least, ten being most) how innapropriate would it be to make a Nuwen joke about a vodka and sleeping pills cocktail?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

New topic, anything apart from the whole speculation thing of why you suspect my town read here?

I need you to point out specifically what at the end of the day led you to this conclusion so I can evaluate it myself because when I went back I saw nothing that tugged at my hearstrings.

Your other two points are gut (and I'm not going to replace my gut instincts with those of someone else) and the speculation argument which I've made my opinion clear on.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Unvote; Vote: Lord Gurgi

For completely failing to convince me at all that Llama is scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, I don't understand why you don't think he's scum. A townie should be trying to convince people off their wagon, and if I think the person attacking me is town, even more so.

That's all well and good in theory, but if someone is running an ineffective case on me that doesn't appear to be convincing anyone then personally I'd just ignore it as well. Addressing it gives it some credence, ignoring it makes the person look like a lone voice braying at nothing.

I assume that you are voting me because you think my case is bad. When I think about the leading lurker lynch, I have to wonder why you chose me.

All I know is you've been pounding away at "he's not addressing my arguments" which doesn't tug at my heartstrings at all. I'll make the assumption that you're a competent player which makes me question your motives when you keep pushing an argument that doesn't resonate at all with me.

Plus we have two days till deadline and no one seemed much interested in a Batt lynch so I figured I'd see if I could get traction in another direction before we succumb to the inevitable and uninformative Nuwen lynch.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

before we succumb to the inevitable and uninformative Nuwen lynch.

And what if she's scum? Then we have accomplished part of our win con, no? Still want a Nuwen lynch.

I didn't say it was a bad lynch and if nothing better present itself then I'll make sure it gets to the needed 4 and/or 6 votes, just that even if she flips scum I'm not sure it tells us that much.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I dunno, normally this is all I have to do to get a town moving. Usually the absolute certainty gets roughly half the people.

If this usually works then I'm the Space Pope.

SpyreX is scum, I'll be back later this afternoon to elucidate why. In the meantime...

Vote: SpyreX

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I don't feel bad at all, at ALL, for either the Zaz or Nu lynches.

I'm not going to apologize for them.

See, I couldn't say anything before but we Apennine Mafia finally finished and your play just seems to have the exact same issues. I remember both us of us as scum basically making that exact same statement in that game after the first two lurker lynches and them flipping town. You should feel bad about the mislynches, you should feel pissed off, annoyed, and frustrated. The fact that you don't feel bad at all means you don't have a stake in the success of the town which means you need to be lynched. Furthermore, in that game both of us were on the first two mislynches and the town's unwillingness to hold our feet to the fire for that fact was one of their biggest mistakes. And I am not going to duplicate those mistakes.

On another note it was just pathetic that both Elmo and TDC weren't voting at the end of the day.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Do I feel bad about these lynches? Nope. Both Zaz and Nu's lurking compounded the issues with their play. They both chose to be active and avoid this game.

Nor do I ever, ever feel bad about lynching lurkers. Especially early game before they crush the end game under a wall of unreadable apathy.

You're completely missing the point. We didn't lynch lurkers, lurkers aren't a role in the game; we lynched townies. And it's the fact that you were (unprompted) trying to redefine your behavior and that of several other players of that from being on a bad lynch of townies to on a good lynch of lurkers is damning.

Which raises another key point: if your case on me is built on meta between these games, what does that say about yours?

Everything I write seems like self-meta which is generally frowned upon, but you did basically ask me to. The difference between games should have been clear on day two, particularly when I moved my vote from Batt to LG to try and get something going besides the inevitable Nuwen lynch. In M98 as scum that's exactly where we would've either been on the mislynch or would've sat on the sidelines waiting for the town to hang itself; big difference.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Oh and if I didn't do it already

Lock: Green

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@Gurgi: DDD did. It was meta. Huzzah! I haven't lost sight of LF either I'm just embroiled in my own madness.

Don't forget that you were on both mislynches. Now granted so were three other people, but that doesn't mean we ignore your hand in them.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

The question why DDD thinks it's pathetic that we didn't vote?

Because it's nothing more than a glorified surrender. If you thought the Nuwen lynch was a good one then you should've been behind it and voting, if you thought it was a bad lynch then you should've been voting someone else trying to push your own candidate or find a viable alternative. You willfully deprived the town of useful information and essentially facilitated the lynch of a townie without having to put your neck out to get it. That’s why it was pathetic.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

If you thought the Nuwen lynch was a good one then you should've been behind it and voting, if you thought it was a bad lynch then you should've been voting someone else trying to push your own candidate or find a viable alternative.

And this lynch should fit clearly into those two categories? I thought it was dubious at best, but not outright terrible. I did think she was mildly townish, and I said so at the time. If you would have liked me to do one or the other, then you should have talked to me at the time and we could have discussed it, instead of you informing me of your preferences well past the point where I can do anything about it.

And I am

not

going to defend Nuwen, either directly or indirectly by pushing a counter-wagon for the purposes of a counter-wagon, without a reasonably strong town read on her.

If Nuwen wasn't scummiest to you then someone else was, it's a simple and truthful binary equation. And you showed either no confidence or interest in pushing a wagon for information or attempting to get them lynched based on your read.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD: Of TDC and LF, who do you think is scum? Who do you think could be their scum partner? Who else do you find scummy?

I really like Goat's recent analysis of LF/LG and agree that LG's behavior regarding LF is extremely confusing. He lamely calls for his lynch for about two days and when an actual wagon fires up he's not on it in a flash?

As for other people, I have FL and GR on the backburner as more likely town and am considering everyone else about equally.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Are you going to change your vote then, or do you find SpyreX scummiest and rather have a no lynch over LF/TDC?

There's still two days left until deadline, plenty of time for me to move my vote as needed.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Are you going to change your vote then, or do you find SpyreX scummiest and rather have a no lynch over LF/TDC?

There's still two days left until deadline, plenty of time for me to move my vote

as needed

.

So then you would be comfortable not voting LF if LF has the amount needed for lynch already?

Well with this first vote tiebreaker nonsense and a competing TDC wagon, I think my vote will be needed eventually so I'm not sure a realistic situation where my vote isn't needed exists. I would be comfortable to varying degrees with lynches of SpyreX, LF, and LG whether I'm casting a vote on those wagons or not. I'm pretty ambivilant as to whether or not I'm on their wagon or not as long as one of them gets lynched.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

It's funny how LF's arguments are completely based around things from the first two days and he's waited until hours before this deadline before bringing them up.

First he suggests that I added nothing new to the Zazie wagon at the end of D1. HELLO, he disappeared, there was nothing that could be added to the points that I had already made. Then on D2 he faults me for trying to find a different lynch instead of basically the same lame lurker lynch we had on D1 which ended up having the same result. Apparently the pro-town thing would've been to completely sit on the sidelines and not vote at all or lamely jump on a bandwagon I no longer really cared for. Give me a break. You want me to take a stance on a deadline lynch, you got yourself a deal buster.

Unvote; Vote: LlamaFluff

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I still say TDC and Elmo are scum.

/headdesk * 26

Also we're in LYLO, unvote.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I have not been moved.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

VT started on green and still on green.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I know I wasn't posting at the very end, but I was extremely uncomfortable with the TDC wagon on the last day; unfortunatly if I was going to tilt at one of the two players who started it, I would've probably ended up hounding SpyreX again.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

However, I do lynch lurkers and I can't feel bad about it.

You're smarter than this SpyreX, M98 lynched lurkers/flakers D1 and D2 and lost because of it. Here we lynched lurkers/flakers D1 and D2 and lost because of it. Lynching lurkers/flakers doesn't help the town fufill it's win con and I'd suggest that lynching them doesn't change their behavior either so it effectively does nothing helpful.

You want to influence that behavior? Put together an official BaM blacklist not just limited to games your modding; include games you're playing and then get more mods to sign onto the list itself if not the ruleset. When people suddenly find themselves locked out of a large number of games the games will be better for the lack of their presence or they'll be forced to actually change their behavior.