/in-Vitational Game 5, Simon Mafia 2: Game Over before 832

[Patrick]

I have two impulses here. The desire for information you've been incredibly cagy about makes me want you to elaborate or I'll vote.

I voted her early on based on a post that gave me bad feelings, since then they've gone away because the rest of what she's saying seems sensible enough and her reaction was ok, and she voted Gurgi at pretty much the same time that he made a couple of posts that bothered me as well.

The other impulse is I don't like seeing thought processes behind how you clear someone town because then it becomes invalid in the future.

Many town signs don't become invalid in future even when explained. I haven't cleared her as town though.

My tendency to tunnel for me...I actually haven't really noticed Elmo.

That's kind of what worries me.

[Lord Gurgi]

Thats not what I'm getting at exactly. Saying I've altered the natural course of events in such a fashion alters them even moreso. Which is even odder because I think a vote after said shenanigans is fairly natural. :P

Although, overall I'm fine with this conversation because this game needs a swift kick to get some movement done before we start getting deadlineitis.

I like to see how people react without telling them how they should. Except when I don't. Point is, as far as I'm concerned, this was a time for natural, and once it's become artificial, the degree to which it is matters less than stopping you from going down a route that the town does not need to go down.

Patrick: I'd really love if people could tell me what they're suspicious of rather than just telling me that I am. I'm all for unexplained votes, but I can't defend against something I don't know about. I'm pretty sure I've explained why I was still pushing for the colour-claim, what else is there?

Also, it would probably be beneficial for you to cast a vote considering the looming deadline.

DDD has stopped posting. It's not easy to strengthen a wagon when he's not posting. People, either get on this wagon so we're doing something, or tell me why you have a better option. I don't like the number of people detracting from this wagon but adding nothing of their own (it's more than three).

Nuwen is also lurking. I don't think it means anything, since I've never known her to lurk, ever.

Elmo is posting more infrequently than I would expect at this juncture. You're supposed to be helpful. >:(

Just about the only people I'm satisfied with the activity from are SpyreX, Goat, and TDC.

[Patrick]

Patrick: I'd really love if people could tell me what they're suspicious of rather than just telling me that I am. I'm all for unexplained votes, but I can't defend against something I don't know about. I'm pretty sure I've explained why I was still pushing for the colour-claim, what else is there?

The way that you tried to turn DDD's reaction to Spyrex into a scumtell didn't pass the smell test (for me). You made two arguments against him: that the suddeness of his reaction was scummy and that he was scummy for only retaliating against Spyrex; neither of which I think are valid, as I explained at the time. Also, attacking particular people who are attacking you is not scummy if there are differences (in this case, I believe the difference is that he was annoyed with Spy elsewhere). At most, it seems like you could slap him on the wrist and tell him not to hold grudges, but you actually painted it as scummy. I thought I'd made my reason clear in my 282, but maybe I've been too lazy explaining myself lately; I'm feeling pretty apathetic with mafia and might semi-retire after this game. I think I was clear enough that I don't have a problem with your colour suggestion, and in fact it may even be slightly town since people who try and break setups are more often town, though I do think it's been bad for the momentum of the game.

There's plenty of time before deadline, though you can be assured I'll have a vote out well before. I don't have a strong read of DDD right now though I see that he hasn't contributed that much to the game. Is there something specific you feel makes his undercontribution worse than say Elmo or Zazier?

[Lord Gurgi]

I said at the time it was either a vendetta or scummy. That said, I acknowledge the wagon isn't made of steel, but it's better than the alternative nothing.

Mostly Elmo and ZazieR aren't doing anything. That has a small negative effect. The other folk are just shooting things down. In my eyes, that's more unhelpful.

Maybe I should find another wagon, but if the new one isn't any stronger, is it a good idea? I don't really think so. If I were being IS, and finding townies, I'd be having an easy time, but that's not very popular these days.

[forbiddanlight]

That's kind of what worries me.

Nyeh, you saw it in BSG to an extent

Just about the only people I'm satisfied with the activity from are SpyreX, Goat, and TDC.

So I don't exist?

[Lord Gurgi]

I post, therefore I am. You do not.

[Patrick]

Mostly Elmo and ZazieR aren't doing anything. That has a small negative effect. The other folk are just shooting things down. In my eyes, that's more unhelpful.

Elmo seemed to slightly shoot down the DDD wagon without suggesting anyone else. I actually thought he was one of the people you were referring to in your last post.

Nyeh, you saw it in BSG to an extent

In BSG it always seemed more like he was trying to accomplish something, even in more bored moments. So far it's not clear to me what he was trying to accomplish in his last post, other than perhaps making a post.

[forbiddanlight]

In BSG it always seemed more like he was trying to accomplish something, even in more bored moments. So far it's not clear to me what he was trying to accomplish in his last post, other than perhaps making a post.

Oh, sorry, I meant my tunneling. I thought you meant THAT was what worried you

I post, therefore I am. You do not.

Lemme do a quick self post count. It won't prove much but I feel affronted .

Mod edit: Quote tag fixed.

[forbiddanlight]

40 posts out of 13 pages is not existing, LG?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I like to see how people react without telling them how they should. Except when I don't. Point is, as far as I'm concerned, this was a time for natural, and once it's become artificial, the degree to which it is matters less than stopping you from going down a route that the town does not need to go down.

Except, Goat had originally already asked the same question, I had cited the question as important and Goat had reiterated it recently and both of us had vote for Zazie The reactions was already going to be "articificial" (if any response in mafia can be called natural), why is it that SpyreX's furthering of this behavior changed the status quo?

DDD has stopped posting. It's not easy to strengthen a wagon when he's not posting. People, either get on this wagon so we're doing something, or tell me why you have a better option. I don't like the number of people detracting from this wagon but adding nothing of their own (it's more than three).

I'd be more active (if nothing else in rebutting arguments) if anyone could give me a reason that I'm scummy besides the fact that I didn't know the game was starting and because I was mean to SpyreX. Since those arguments are laughably bad and have already been addressed it leaves me little to talk about in that regard.

I've also got to admit I'm more than a little amused how you're passing the buck to other people to find a better option. You admit your case isn't made out of steel, but you can't be bothered to find a better one. You've kind of lost the moral high ground for criticizing other's lack of scumhunting when you admitted to that.

Nuwen is also lurking. I don't think it means anything, since I've never known her to lurk, ever.

I've played one game with her, she got replaced, she was scum. Hardly conclusive, but now that it's been brought up it bothers me.

~~

I swear to god time works differently in whatever alternate dimension Zazie is from.

[SpyreX]

Its a better dimension far as I can be concerned.

DDD: Your stance on 4 players, your choice, not including yourself and why.

[LlamaFluff]

The problem I have with you, LF, is the same as FL. You did not try to scumhunt while everyone was doing setup speculation, and instead tried to get others to scumhunt (TDC). Did you just not see anything scummy?

There was nothing really scummy in the RVS to me, it moved before I really thought it was over, so I just tried to get on someone who never even was a part of it.

So, what kind of scumhunting did you expect others to do then?

Anything really, even if it was just a comment on the wagons on you or DDD. TDC has his random vote still out IIRC, 14 pages into the game.

[Goatrevolt]

Huh. I absolutely missed that.

Where does he lol, reactions define it? I saw the quote from above - is there also the other?

You missed it???? You posted numerous times on that page. I find that hard to believe.

He doesn't definite it precisely as "lol, reactions" but he calls it useful in seeing who will rise to DDD's valiant defense, which can basically be translated as "I want to see how people react to this".

Goat, you know as well as I do that on page two, random bandwagoning and lol reactions is the pinnacle of scumhunting. If someone doesn't do it, we sit around in a circle staring attentively at eachother's faces. I've since provided more explanation. I'm not sure if you're calling me out for something I did, or if you're attacking SpyreX, and the ambiguity bothers me.

I don't see how it's ambiguous. I'm attacking SpyreX over his inconsistent application of scum tells.

I agree with you. If I had a problem with your vote there, I would have pursued it at the time instead of going after Zazie, and calling him the worst on that wagon.

Nuwen is also lurking. I don't think it means anything, since I've never known her to lurk, ever.

I've played one game with her, she got replaced, she was scum. Hardly conclusive, but now that it's been brought up it bothers me.

I played one game with her, she lurked and got replaced and was town. I don't think it can be considered a tell at this stage.

[SpyreX]

You find it hard to believe I didn't really pay close attention to page 2?

Lol, reactions isn't just about doing something for reactions. Its more when you do something that people go "huh" and your response is some form of lol, reactions.

And you can call it inconsistent but something is to be said for you trying to apply consistency to LG's vote and subsequent play and Zaz's vote / lurk / explanation of vote.

Since they're not the same.

[Goatrevolt]

You find it hard to believe I didn't really pay close attention to page 2?

Yes. Are you in the habit of ignoring stuff that happens on page 2?

This post suggests that you were aware of the DDD wagon, else why acknowledge Batt's defense of it?

Lol, reactions isn't just about doing something for reactions. Its more when you do something that people go "huh" and your response is some form of lol, reactions.

Ok, fair point, and I agree. There is a difference between doing something for reactions and using "lol, reactions" as a defense for something that wasn't done for reactions.

And you can call it inconsistent but something is to be said for you trying to apply consistency to LG's vote and subsequent play and Zaz's vote / lurk / explanation of vote.

Since they're not the same.

You called shameless bandwagoning scummy, but LG's vote on DDD was like the poster boy for shameless bangwagoning.

I'm not making the argument that Gurgi's vote and Zazie's vote were the same thing and should be evaluated as the same. I harassed Batt about that point earlier. My argument was that Gurgi's vote looked the same as what you had labeled Zazie's vote as, and you had voted Zazie for it while not voting Gurgi earlier.

Had you not missed Gurgi's vote, would you have pressured him over it at the time?

[SpyreX]

So two parts of this:

That part of the game from my memory on my side went:

I checked it, saw LF's post about the deadline. Quick posted about it. Saw an answer. Saw a really bizarre defense of DDD like it was going somewhere and posted about harshing the mellow.

So, since I am attracted to lots of words I glossed over the gap I missed and saw Batt's post. I'm a bit of a squirrel early on that way.

At THAT point would I have pressured Gurgi? Probably a little.

If after that post Gurgi fell out of the game for a few pages and then came back and defended that vote like that would I have voted for him like such? Hoss yes.

[Nuwen]

I'm not lurking, I'm allowing mafia apathy to sink its nasty little teeth into my participation in this game. I replaced out of a lot of my games in the past ~4-5 months after being struck hard by the meatworld. Around the time of the game DDD mentioned I tried to chase a bottle of sleeping pills with a fifth of vodka.

Anyway,

I'll let you

writhe and speculate

until I'm done with this cuppa coffee.

Nuwen is also lurking. I don't think it means anything, since I've never known her to lurk, ever.

Let's just pretend it was a really, really big cup of coffee.

Gurgi pushed early on for a color claim after FL claimed. I mentioned earlier that color claiming neuters the protection offered by locking a floor. As long as everyone's colors are secret, floor locking can effectively act as protection to players on the locked floor

and

"roleblock" scum kills. If a list of killable (read: anywhere but green) players is compiled, scum will be able to pick off town players.

I don't buy the desire to color claim in order to "make motivations more clear," as Gurgi requested. What scum motivations could be revealed by color claiming after our setup dissection?

Lock: Green

. Is it locked yet?

Also let's lynch DDD.

Where's the vote?

I'll take a much closer look at the DDD wagon. It's barely been in my peripheral and sprung out of nowhere.

Zazie needs to post or die.

[Nuwen]

Actually, while I backread I want the following people to sound off who they believe the two scummiest players in game are with

one or two sentences explaining why

. I've lost track of stances among the setup disagreement and think a lot of the back and forth here is based on mechanical disagreement that's not alignment-specific until we progress further into the game.

DDD, forbiddanlight, Gurgi, TDC, Zazie - tell me your scummiest two players thus far, please.

[Lord Gurgi]

Nuwen: DDD is my perennial candidate. I don't really have a reason other than he's lurking and annoys me. If he were actually interested in repelling suspicion and actively helping, I don't think he'd be lurking. Somehow him telling me my case is terrible and that's why he's not posting doesn't mesh with my idea of townie play. After that I pick LF, because claiming apathy is a cop out.

I'm not sure if you missed my very long explanation on why I was pushing the colour-claim. It was very much a now-or-never situation. If you're fine with never, then that's your thing.

Since no one really responded to what I was hoping, does anyone mind terribly if I start hunting for townies? Since we have random blocking and protection, it might not be so prone to the negatives.

DDD: Why do you think you were the only one to call me on the issue of "passing the buck"? Also, I didn't remember Goat doing that. I sort of glaze over sometimes when a whole bunch happens while I'm gone. It's why I try to stay active.

Final question for Nuwen, what do you mean, where's the vote? I'm pretty sure I was already voting for him at the time.

This is really the last bit, people who've played with ZazieR before might be able to tell me, does he usually lurk? I've sort of let it be for now because he seems like a lurker in general by personality.

[SpyreX]

I am totally down with townie hunting.

In fact, I have one that I am way, way sure is town already. A couple that I'm leaning hard on that way too.

[Nuwen]

Final question for Nuwen, what do you mean, where's the vote? I'm pretty sure I was already voting for him at the time.

Saw that almost immediately after shifting around the thread, I need to drink less. Everyone should disregard that last bit.

So... you kind of avoided posting your thoughts on if this was a town or scum tell here. This almost looks like you lean scum tell which is really interesting.

With the proposed plans a believed claim seems like it's almost a free pass to LYLO so I'm naturally dubious.

I agree with the periphrastic guy. There's a strong scum motivation for a scum bellhop to claim outright in the midst of a discussion that's leaning heavily towards permanently protecting any claimed bellhops. It's a ticket straight to end game for one member of the scum team. As long as FL does our bidding, however, I'm fine with putting off a closer look at her until tomorrow or the day after. There are scummier fish to lynch today, and a town bellhop claiming at the time FL did is not

entirely

unlikely.

I don't see anything from FL explicitly stating that she'll volunteer to be lynched prior to a lylo situation. Even if she did agree to be lynched, I think the more optimal pro-town move would have been to stave off claiming for as long as possible in order to get another bellhop to claim. If I had a pro-town bellhop role PM, it greatly reduces the odds that any other bellhop(s) is/are town too.

I like the idea of moving scummy or unreadable players to locked floors. The locked door acts as a role block and if no kill occurs during the night, we'll know that either 1)Everyone in the game is on green or 2)All scum are on green, barring any mechanics that allow for the opening of locked doors.

[Goatrevolt]

Zazie needs to post or die.

The last game we played in, he lurked for a long period and was scum. Once/If search is back up, I want to compare his posting frequency in this game with that of him in other games.

We should move pro-town players to green, not scummy players.

There are at least 3 Mafia Members.

People are aware when they get room-swapped. If one mafia member gets room swapped, then one of the others will make the kill. It will take a while to prevent the mafia from killing by following this idea, and in the meantime we are leaving pro-town players as vulnerable kill choices. By moving pro-town players, we limit the mafia kill options as early as possible and will honestly stop them from being able to make kills just as quickly.

---------

Town hunting and scum hunting are 2 sides to the same coin. If you find enough townies, you've found the scum. I think it's a valid strategy in any game, including this one.

[Nuwen]

Town hunting and scum hunting are 2 sides to the same coin. If you find enough townies, you've found the scum. I think it's a valid strategy in any game, including this one.

I endorse this sentiment.

Howeeeeever, putting scummy players on lockdown (combined with lynching) will result in faster and more direct scumhunting than protecting pro-town players. While I agree that an experienced scumhunter is a powerful town tool, the mechanics of this game allow us to restrict and control mafia kills. We should take advantage of that offensively, not by defensively moving pro-town players.

FL's alignment is up in the air. I want to pursue her further either tomorrow or the day after, depending on how night actions resolve. If she is scum, having her move the penultimately scummy player following today's lynch locks down three potential scum candidates: one dies via lynch, FL herself is restricted to green, and we're forcing her to move another player to green. We can begin to narrow down who is and is not able to submit kills faster through elimination.

If the penultimately scummy player isn't actually scum, neat, we've protected a town role anyway.

[Goatrevolt]

Howeeeeever, putting scummy players on lockdown (combined with lynching) will result in faster and more direct scumhunting than protecting pro-town players. While I agree that an experienced scumhunter is a powerful town tool, the mechanics of this game allow us to restrict and control mafia kills. We should take advantage of that offensively, not by defensively moving pro-town players.

There are 2 problems with this.

1. It will take us probably 2 days minimum to get all the scum over to green, and this is a "best case scenario" kind of play. Realistically, it could and probably will take longer. In that period, we are giving scum free reign to kill anyone not moved over, which in this case is a group of pro-town players.

2. If we are moving scummy players to green, we will also want to lynch those scummy players. If we lynch someone we move over, then we effectively wasted the ability. By moving pro-town players, we quickly limit the scum killing ability because we will both be transporting likely townies to green as well as lynching players not in green as that is where the scummy players will be residing. That will effectively count as "2 moves" a day.

[Lord Gurgi]

As far as I can tell, locking down scum FL and town FL both have benefits, so I don't see it as a great and mighty problem. As far as her alignment, FL is more impulsive than any three of us put together as either alignment, I don't think she's done anything yet that means anything. That said, I was still majorly bamboozled last time she was scum in a game with me. That's right, bamboozled.