/in-Vitational Game 5, Simon Mafia 2: Game Over before 832

[Goatrevolt]

Zazie: Jumped on a bad bandwagon, my problem is different than goat’s though. I don’t have a huge problem with an “lol reactions” bandwagon, but Zazie supplied evidence actually pushing the argument the bandwagon was based on. Added to the fact that we’ve not seen anything remotely useful or helpful from him and he’s my number one suspect far and away.

My reasons for voting Zazie are closer to yours than you might expect. I want to see how he answers my questioning before I reveal them though.

Gotta love when it's page 15, and you still haven't gotten an answer to a simple question from page 2. Damn, do I love me some lurking.

Has Battasai said anything of value in the last 5-10 pages? I can't honestly remember a post of any interest he's made in a while.

[Lord Gurgi]

It seems like this game has lurkers and townies. Goat is town, Patrick is (always) town, SpyreX seems townish, TDC is town, Nuwen is probably townish (not that I can read her for anything), forbiddanlight's neutral, DDD is becoming neutral as he bothers to post, Elmo's not posting, Batt's not posting, ZazieR's not posting, LlamaFluff is scummy.

Wheeeeeeee.

[Lord Gurgi]

Unvote

, I guess.

Vote: Llama

?

[Goatrevolt]

You seem pretty enthusiastic about that vote.

[Goatrevolt]

Also Elmo is on V/LA. Let's give him a chance to get back before burning him at the stake. There are better lurkers to fry.

[LlamaFluff]

It seems like this game has lurkers and townies. Goat is town, Patrick is (always) town, SpyreX seems townish, TDC is town, Nuwen is probably townish (not that I can read her for anything), forbiddanlight's neutral, DDD is becoming neutral as he bothers to post, Elmo's not posting, Batt's not posting, ZazieR's not posting, LlamaFluff is scummy.

Wheeeeeeee.

Nice to see some reasoning behind that accusation ya know...

[SpyreX]

Llama:

If you had two bullets right now, who would you shoot? Why?

[Mr. Flay]

Official Day One Vote Count #12

3 - ZazieR (Goatrevolt, Debonair Danny DiPietro, SpyreX)
2 - Lord Gurgi (Battousai, Nuwen)
2 - LlamaFluff (forbiddanlight, Lord Gurgi)
1 - Debonair Danny DiPietro (ZazieR)
1 - Battousai (Elmo)
1 - TDC (LlamaFluff)

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch and

4

to lynch at deadline. Deadline is September 1, 10:00 pm CDT.

Not Voting – 2 - Patrick, TDC

---

LOCK COUNT

9 - Green (TDC, LlamaFluff, SpyreX, forbiddanlight, Battousai, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Nuwen, Goatrevolt, Lord Gurgi)
0 - Blue
0 - Red
0 - Yellow

Not Locking – 3 – Elmo, Patrick, ZazieR

At nightfall, the floor to be locked is: GREEN

.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama:

If you had two bullets right now, who would you shoot? Why?

TDC - Still has done absolutely nothing in this game past speculation. When we are 15 pages into the game, are clearly out of the random stage, have multiple wagons going, and you still can not come up with anything of use, something is not right.

LG - The 'trap' or whatever it was after FL claimed to try and get people to color claim makes no sense still as i go back and read it yet again. He says that people that claimed after FL did would lie about their claim and make it optimal (which I guess he is saying is green). Now what I dont get is why he thinks that having a quick color claim will gleam anything on someones alignment here. What we have to consider is that town will likely not lie since if they get outed later, its giving scum a free lynch. Scum may have more of an incentive to lie, but again ever being outed would likely result in a lynch.

So I have zero idea what a green/not green claim would even mean to him, or to me. It can be WIFOMed to anything really (presuming BH does not know where their target came from in which case telling truth is mandatory regardless of alignment). What it mostly accomplishes is letting scum know who can be killed and who can not.

~~

While I actually do not think these two work well together, independently they both look somewhat scummy. If I am looking for the lynch that I think is slightly more likely to hit scum, it would be TDC (even though its about 60-40 to me). However a LG lynch is much much more informative at this point, given ties to quite a few more people.

[TDC]

What would Gurgi coming up town tell you?
What would Gurgi coming up scum tell you (other than apparently indicating I'm town because we don't "work well together")?

Delighted that you'd prefer I didn't post at all instead of posting just "speculation".

[LlamaFluff]

What would Gurgi coming up town tell you?

You scum, spy is slight scum, DDD is slight scum, Fl gets more town points. LG town is harder to make connections on though as compared to...

What would Gurgi coming up scum tell you (other than apparently indicating I'm town because we don't "work well together")?

You are town (that big confusing exchange), DDD is town (constant goading of others to join wagon while not being actively presued), FL is town (did some of that same thing Nuwen did of claiming is null read), Nuwen leans town (exchange over color claim), Batt is scum (reading early LG seems like a Batt vote should of appeared but never did).

Delighted that you'd prefer I didn't post at all instead of posting just "speculation".

I really dislike open/semi-open for the most part (vanilla ones are fine). I do not like complicated role games, I do not like heavy PR games. There seems to be more time spent on setup instead of scumhunting. Its not fun for me, I lose intrest, I lurk and play poorly. Im not at all going to say that I was an active part of the early game or tried to be. If you want to speculate, fine, im just not joining you. What I have a problem with is when someone is going to only speculate and ignore the "finding mafia" part of "mafia", which is what you continue to do.

[TDC]

Why so sure that one of Gurgi and me must be scum? Seems to be more than just thinking we're scummy individually, but rather something that stems from the discussion we had?

I was not suggesting that you post more speculation, I was suggesting that you would be less suspicious of me if I didn't post at all (see the lurkers that don't phase you one bit).

That said, if you hate this so much, you probably should've included pj and all other mods who announced games you were not going to like on the "not-want" list.

[LlamaFluff]

Why so sure that one of Gurgi and me must be scum? Seems to be more than just thinking we're scummy individually, but rather something that stems from the discussion we had?

I can cite reasons that I think that each of you are scummy individually, so its not based off the conversation that I think one of you has to be scum. Its more off the conversation that I think that you cant be scum together. In absence of the conversation I would have each of you down as scum.

I was not suggesting that you post more speculation, I was suggesting that you would be less suspicious of me if I didn't post at all (see the lurkers that don't phase you one bit).

Zazie I have seen lurk a few times as town, Elmo is on V/LA and the one time I played with him it was a very slow moving game and he was town. Everyone else is posting I think. Its part of that you were active and actually keeping up with the game, but still never commented on anything past speculation that was really bothering me.

That said, if you hate this so much, you probably should've included pj and all other mods who announced games you were not going to like on the "not-want" list.

I had about half on the "do not" list, I just apparently missed a few. Im not going to replace out of anything, but I just have a large preference for closed games as opposed to open ones. I have much more fun in them, and play much better.

[Battousai]

Llama:

If you had two bullets right now, who would you shoot? Why?

I think we should all answer this, a basic top two scummy. Since apparently I haven't posted substance... I'll go next.


LG: His early bandwagoning of DDD, then later his trap.

LF: During setup speculation, he either defended his position of not speculating or wanted others to scumhunt. Not scummy, but the fact he doesn't scumhunt during this whole time is what does make it scummy.

[Lord Gurgi]

This page is not fun for me.

I feel like I've gone over this every page for the last five. Could you guys explain to me what I need to expand on? What 'trap' are you both talking about? I was trying to get honesty out of people before they woke up, where was the trap? I'm really quite annoyed that people are angry at me for trying to get this game

going

somewhere. You're all happy to criticise people doing nothing, but seem to view wagons you disagree with as worse.

Walrus Song:

Half past twelve
And I'm read the game in my flat all alone
How I hate to spend the evening on my own
Autumn winds
Blowing outside the window as I look around the room
And it makes me so depressed to see the gloom
There's not a soul out there
No one to hear my prayer

Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! Yos after midnight!
Won't somebody help me chase the lurkers away
Gimme gimme gimme Yos after midnight
Take me through the darkness to the break of the day

Mafia pros
Find the end of the rainbow, with their fortune to win
It's so different from the world I'm living in
Tired of Mafia
I open the window and I gaze into the night
But there's nothing there to see, no one in sight
There's not a soul out there
No one to hear my prayer

Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! Yos after midnight!
Won't somebody help me chase the lurkers away
Gimme gimme gimme Yos after midnight
Take me through the darkness to the break of the day

Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! Yos after midnight!
Won't somebody help me chase the lurkers away
Gimme gimme gimme Yos after midnight
Take me through the darkness to the break of the day

There's not a soul out there
No one to hear my prayer

Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! Yos after midnight!
Won't somebody help me chase the lurkers away
Gimme gimme gimme Yos after midnight
Take me through the darkness to the break of the day

Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! Yos after midnight!
Won't somebody help me chase the lurkers away
Gimme gimme gimme Yos after midnight
Take me through the darkness to the break of the day

[LlamaFluff]

I feel like I've gone over this every page for the last five. Could you guys explain to me what I need to expand on? What 'trap' are you both talking about? I was

trying to get honesty out of people before they woke up

, where was the trap? I'm really quite annoyed that people are angry at me for trying to get this game

going

somewhere. You're all happy to criticise people doing nothing, but seem to view wagons you disagree with as worse.

What was the possible benifit of a color claim? I see absolutely none that can not be twisted into WIFOM. I just dont see the game "going somewhere" good with anyone color claiming. All I see is a new arguement springing up over what color scum would of claimed.

The bolded is what in my book is the definition on a trap, trying to catch someone offguard into something scummy/contridiction.

I guess just lay out your exact thought process of what you thought a complete or partial color claim would accomplish for the town.

[Lord Gurgi]

I did. Pages ago. Please at least read what I have posted.

[LlamaFluff]

If I understand right this is what you were talking about

I was pushing for a colour-claim before a Bellhop could claim so that the scum wouldn't alter their claim to fit with the Bellhop's colour. When the Bellhop claimed, that kind of became moot. Since no one was saying anything about it, I figured if I could push it really quickly and get it through, we might just get real claims from people.

This is basically you saying that you wanted a color claim so scum would have to fit their claim to a color later, instead of having both freedoms. I still however fail to see how this small advantage outweighs the fact that if a complete claim went through, that scum would know everyones location.

Im not sure if im just missing something here or what, but the cons seem to outweigh the pros by a whole lot.

[ZazieR]

Sorry, didn't post for two/three days at MS >.<
Will get at least a bit of analysis done tomorrow as I need to get caught up in my other games as well.

[Lord Gurgi]

If I understand right this is what you were talking about

I was pushing for a colour-claim before a Bellhop could claim so that the scum wouldn't alter their claim to fit with the Bellhop's colour. When the Bellhop claimed, that kind of became moot. Since no one was saying anything about it, I figured if I could push it really quickly and get it through, we might just get real claims from people.

This is basically you saying that you wanted a color claim so scum would have to fit their claim to a color later, instead of having both freedoms. I still however fail to see how this small advantage outweighs the fact that if a complete claim went through, that scum would know everyones location.

Im not sure if im just missing something here or what, but the cons seem to outweigh the pros by a whole lot.

So, if someone claimed green now, would you assume they were locked in for tonight? Tomorrow night? The night after that? It destroys the possibility to actually account for where people are.

[LlamaFluff]

If I understand right this is what you were talking about

I was pushing for a colour-claim before a Bellhop could claim so that the scum wouldn't alter their claim to fit with the Bellhop's colour. When the Bellhop claimed, that kind of became moot. Since no one was saying anything about it, I figured if I could push it really quickly and get it through, we might just get real claims from people.

This is basically you saying that you wanted a color claim so scum would have to fit their claim to a color later, instead of having both freedoms. I still however fail to see how this small advantage outweighs the fact that if a complete claim went through, that scum would know everyones location.

Im not sure if im just missing something here or what, but the cons seem to outweigh the pros by a whole lot.

So, if someone claimed green now, would you assume they were locked in for tonight? Tomorrow night? The night after that? It destroys the possibility to actually account for where people are.

I would assume that. If scum claim green they are really restricting themselves, and if there is a role that can pick up color/movement, its suicidal.

Lets say we mass color claimed and had six green, all other floors at two each. Then what? Any scum fakeclaiming or on green are or claim to of been RBed. Any scum not on green can claim whatever. Scum knows who they can kill.

Even if we had even spread claim, I dont get how its an advantage. One of the best things going for us right now is scum dont know who they can kill at night. If we color claim, any ability to see who is where to limit scum movement is overshadowed by the fact that scum never need to be afraid of having a kill stopped by a locked out floor. They can make the optimal move each night from that point on.

What does this exactly force scum to do that outweighs telling the scum where everyone is?

[Lord Gurgi]

If the scum have some role that is immune to such roles?

[LlamaFluff]

If the scum have some role that is immune to such roles?

Immune to what?

[TDC]

I can cite reasons that I think that each of you are scummy individually, so its not based off the conversation that I think one of you has to be scum. Its more off the conversation that I think that you cant be scum together. In absence of the conversation I would have each of you down as scum.

So basically both of us are sooo scummy that it

pains

you that one of must be town (and still plays

this

badly) and that's why the other is still scum if one turns up town?

Its part of that you were active and actually keeping up with the game, but still never commented on anything past speculation that was really bothering me.

Yes, that's my point. In terms of your suspicion, it would be better for me to post very sporadically. I disagree that that'd be the better course of action, though. Arguably, if a suboptimal course of action lessens your suspicion, something's off.

Meh, will post the complete version tomorrow.

Sorry, didn't post for two/three days at MS >.<
Will get at least a bit of analysis done tomorrow as I need to get caught up in my other games as well.

Did your dog eat your "complete version" and so you have to do it all over again?

[LlamaFluff]

I can cite reasons that I think that each of you are scummy individually, so its not based off the conversation that I think one of you has to be scum. Its more off the conversation that I think that you cant be scum together. In absence of the conversation I would have each of you down as scum.

So basically both of us are sooo scummy that it

pains

you that one of must be town (and still plays

this

badly) and that's why the other is still scum if one turns up town?

So you are saying that you have never had a game where player A and B are both scummy, but you dont think they work together?

Its part of that you were active and actually keeping up with the game, but still never commented on anything past speculation that was really bothering me.

Yes, that's my point. In terms of your suspicion, it would be better for me to post very sporadically. I disagree that that'd be the better course of action, though. Arguably, if a suboptimal course of action lessens your suspicion, something's off.

Kind of yeah. If you are going to bring up the other lurker arguement thing though, Zazie (although very recently) and Elmo both have done something along the lines of commenting on the DDD, or at least expressing some opinions on alignments at this point.

page 16, so who is scummy?