/in-Vitational Game 5, Simon Mafia 2: Game Over before 832

[Lord Gurgi]

Compliments about past games always seem out of place.

[Battousai]

So a pointless vote warrants NO response?

Not immediately. Usually the vote goes away quickly or as soon as something happens.

Compliments about past games always seem out of place.

I thought you were using Lover's mafia as an example of bad scum play. I was giving a counter view of it.

[SpyreX]

....

I will not cry tears if Zaz gets lynched for lurking. I will help it.

However, for now, and for reals.

Unvote, Vote: Battousai

Come tomorrow there will be the nice creamy case.

[Mr. Flay]

Official Day One Vote Count #13

2 - ZazieR (Goatrevolt, Debonair Danny DiPietro)
2 - Lord Gurgi (Battousai, Nuwen)
2 - LlamaFluff (forbiddanlight, Lord Gurgi)
2 - Battousai (Elmo, SpyreX)
1 - Debonair Danny DiPietro (ZazieR)
1 - TDC (LlamaFluff)

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch and

4

to lynch at deadline. Deadline is September 1, 10:00 pm CDT.

Not Voting – 2 - Patrick, TDC

---

LOCK COUNT

9 - Green (TDC, LlamaFluff, SpyreX, forbiddanlight, Battousai, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Nuwen, Goatrevolt, Lord Gurgi)
0 - Blue
0 - Red
0 - Yellow

Not Locking – 3 – Elmo, Patrick, ZazieR

At nightfall, the floor to be locked is: GREEN

.

[LlamaFluff]

So I just realized we have about five days untill deadline.

There are a whole lot of people really not giving hardcore suspicions at this point in the game which is kind of concerning, especially with the votes spread as thin as they currently are.

I guess I will avoid asking the question to TDC as to not continue to beat a dead horse for the time being. Maybe also because im starting to waiver on his alignment a bit too after trying to scrounge up stuff on more players. While zero is still less then almost nothing, almost nothing isnt that much.

So, can I get some clear suspicions from people I cant recall a case on who they are voting from off the top of my head (Batt, Elmo, LG, Spy, Zazie, Patrick). Also can GR and DDD explain if the push on zazie is a lurker lynch, or something else. Im going to try and slog through the whole debate thing again and see if I cant pick anything up.

[Lord Gurgi]

The case on you has been explained well. Not so much by me, but it shouldn't make a difference to the integrity of the case. Anyway, I'm willing to support a ZazieR lynch at deadline. Llama, any particular reason you're alone on your wagon rather than getting on a larger one?

Unvote;Vote: ZazieR

. My vote can stay here for now. More pressure on the lazy can't hurt.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, any particular reason you're alone on your wagon rather than getting on a larger one?

Dont feel quite comfortable enough with my grasp of where most people are to wagon hop right now. Thats what my questions attempt to reread during this last hour or so at the office will hopefully accomplish. Im gone this weekend and with an impending deadline I need to get comfortable fast.

With TDC im starting to waiver a bit just due to a step back, he is kind of reacting like I do as town when I feel im getting attacked for weak things, which is getting a mix of indignant and flustered, so it kind of is making me have some second thoughts. With you hell I dunno. The fact that I still dont entirely get why you suggested what you did when it seems based on hypotheticals really sets me off, as understanding someone quickly and the first time I see as a town tell. At the same time though basing an entire case on "I dont understand this" seems to be a bit of an overstep.

More or less its examine my weak gut reads + look at other pushed cases for me right now, in an attempt to get a grip on what is happening, instead of kind of meandering around when there is not time to do so.

[LlamaFluff]

I voted him as most players were joking around during the RVS. So what better way to get out of the RVS with a good healthy bandwagon. As there hadn't been anything scummy yet, I went with the bandwagon of a player who at least had shown anti-town behaviour.

So was the vote random or serious?

We deal with FL later, her role offers too many town advantages to waste time on her right now, regardless of alignment.

So what are you treating this claim as? Miller where if she is scummy you lynch? Policy lynch on day X? Regardless of alignment its a role we can control, forceably. I do not understand what you are trying to suggest the right move here really is.

@Elmo - You sig says V/LA ended yesterday. Thoughts?

[SpyreX]

Time to give what was promised:

Battousai, come on down:

What's with the vote on the person who hasn't posted yet? I see two town reasons: to get an active lurker to post or to get an inactive player lynched before their inactiveness does harm.

I don't see the first as feasible, as DDD hasn't posted yet. Therefore you don't know if DDD has been active, unless you have seen him post elsewhere (which I'm assuming you haven't as you have failed to link evidence).

The second I see as more plausible, yet unlikely or at least premature. The game started on Tuesday. You made your vote less random today, which is just around 7 hrs over 3 days. We have 3 weeks left of today, so you are wanting them lynched now instead of replaced or even prodded to make sure they know the game has started.

What seems to be the most likely, is that you are trying to lynch a player who hasn't been on to defend themselves, and leave yourself defence of lynching someone who would be hurtful when DDD flips.

When I read this is bothered me. When I read it again it really bothered me.

This is quantifying an early wagon into a no-defense lynch. There is no questioning this is "LF, the scum, is voting for DDD the lurker-town to get him lynched

before DDD can play the game

."

Then as soon as it becomes apparent DDD is on the site, but not posting, the vote is downgraded to another FoS (making three).

Yet, later we get:

LG- He may not feel it now, but he may feel it when he wakes up. Also, my FOS's do mean something, as in I find these people suspicious. Actually I think I can say with some certainty that at least one person on the DDD wagon is scum, regardless of DDD's alignment.

Which leaves us with:

4 - Debonair Danny DiPietro (SpyreX, LlamaFluff, ZazieR, Lord Gurgi)

Zaz already has a FoS, LLamaFluff was downgraded, I, still, wasn't mentioned and LG also FoS'd for said vote.

Now, as is mentioned later its because I was the "random" vote when asked but in that case - why not simply say one of your 3 FoS's was scum? Why still add me in to the mix if my reasoning for being on this wagon wasn't scummy?

There's a couple of things that have rung as scummy here. First is how you go middle of the road for a claimed role, but leave room for her to be lynched if you get the support by saying you don't like one of her posts. Basically you said, "I have no read, yet she has acted scummy."

From defender to odd finger pointing.

However, the above stuck an off chord. The actively unexplained vote on me (after I had said I would lynch him in talking with DDD) getting no response in conjunction with the above sure does.

I've got an off-the-wall theory about how this all connects but it is fairly cookoobanannas and not quite baked yet.

Lets just say that if Batt flips a scum PR then DDD is clear. If Batt flips goon then its questionable. If Batt flips town then I need to be less paranoid because this reeks of maneuvering.

This definitely isn't my best case - because, at heart, I'm just quantifying gut and I know it.

However the play involving me in comparison to the rest of the wagon and the ardent early vote are off.

I'd prefer THIS to a pure-lurker lynch. However, without question I am fine. Also, to add spice to the pot - if Zaz IS scum I'd put Batt on higher than baseline to be a partner.

[SpyreX]

Note:

My vote on Zaz isn't just pure lurking. The wagon as a whole is. I am stopping this whole "what do you mean you had reasons!" business before it starts.

[Lord Gurgi]

SpyreX, do you have anything more recent, or a particularly believable reason you posted this only now?

[forbiddanlight]

I'd prefer THIS to a pure-lurker lynch. However, without question I am fine. Also, to add spice to the pot - if Zaz IS scum I'd put Batt on higher than baseline to be a partner.

Hey, I'd prefer a "Someone was scummy" lynched as opposed to a lurker lynch too. My suspicion of those voting Zazie for such things is increasing.

My vote on Zaz isn't just pure lurking. The wagon as a whole is. I am stopping this whole "what do you mean you had reasons!" business before it starts. Razz

Aren't you voting Batt?

[Battousai]

Llama:

If you had two bullets right now, who would you shoot? Why?

I think we should all answer this, a basic top two scummy.

Since apparently I haven't posted substance... I'll go next.


LG: His early bandwagoning of DDD, then later his trap.

LF: During setup speculation, he either defended his position of not speculating or wanted others to scumhunt. Not scummy, but the fact he doesn't scumhunt during this whole time is what does make it scummy.

Spyrex:

Now, as is mentioned later its because I was the "random" vote when asked but in that case - why not simply say one of your 3 FoS's was scum? Why still add me in to the mix if my reasoning for being on this wagon wasn't scummy?

Whether or not your vote was scummy, you were on the wagon. I felt the wagon was scummy, so you kinda have to be included since you were on the wagon.

However, the above stuck an off chord. The actively unexplained vote on me (after I had said I would lynch him in talking with DDD) getting no response in conjunction with the above sure does.

??? I never voted you... I don't get this paragraph.

[Patrick]

Vote: Elmo

. Not waiting any longer, and I think he's the most likely to be scum at the moment. I can't shake the feeling that his last post isn't like anything I've seen him post as town before, and more consistent with his scum behaviour of posting words but saying relatively little. I admit this only a feeling based on one post made in the small hours, but he's given nothing else to judge him on. I want to see substance from him and quickly.

The Zazier thing is meh. I've never played with him and the only meta I have was a friend telling me before the game that he tends to either flake or spam the thread up. I don't have an alignment meta, though. I don't think he's much higher than average odds of being scum and don't see his behaviour early on as anything unusual.

I've reread Battousai and found myself agreeing with what Goat said about him. After starting actively he's seemed more and more in the background, and alot of his reasons for suspicions are borrowed from other people. I'd like both Battousai and LlamaFluff to respond to this:

Is there something scummier about Gurgi suggesting a sub-optimal strategy than Nuwen suggesting a sub-optimal strategy?

Also dislike Battousai's vague support for the "trap" being scummy, it seems like he only got interested in this when other people attacked Gurgi over it.

Town reads: forbiddanlight, and Goatrevolt with less confidence. Considering Gurgi for this category too but I keep waffling over it. I don't think he should be lynched though.

[Goatrevolt]

This is my main issue with Zazie, and I wanted to milk information out of him before jumping on this, because there was definite possibility he would slip, but I seriously doubt he is going to be back and provide anything relevant before the deadline.

He voted DDD only 1 minute after his previous post in the thread, suggesting he didn't take a lot of time deciding to place that vote, yet he both claims DDD exhibited anti-town behavior (How in the hell would he have a chance to evaluate that in 1 minute?) and later provides evidence to support this after Llama suggests that DDD had been active on the site but not posting in this thread. The way Zazie goes about providing that information later is deceptive, and suggests the idea that Zazie was using that as a basis for his vote, despite the fact that there is no way Zazie could have possibly evaluated all that information in the short period of time he used to vote DDD.

I don't think Zazie bothered to actually look into whether DDD was lurking or not, and the de post facto rationale for his earlier vote is shady as hell. I don't buy the explanation that he voted DDD for "anti-town behavior."

[Goatrevolt]

Whether or not your vote was scummy, you were on the wagon. I felt the wagon was scummy, so you kinda have to be included since you were on the wagon.

This makes absolutely no sense at all. This is basically the same point I called you out on earlier. You are applying a blanket "everyone is scummy on this wagon" statement and making no effort to differentiate what is what. You can't honestly tell me that you found a random vote on DDD to be at the same level of scumminess as Zazie or Gurgi or Llama's vote?

The idea that a wagon is scummy, thus everyone on it gets "scum points" is absurd.

[Goatrevolt]

Note:

My vote on Zaz isn't just pure lurking. The wagon as a whole is. I am stopping this whole "what do you mean you had reasons!" business before it starts.

What do you mean by this? I don't think lurking is the driving factor behind anyone's vote on that wagon.

[Goatrevolt]

Mod: Can we get a prod on Elmo

[SpyreX]

SpyreX, do you have anything more recent, or a particularly believable reason you posted this only now?

Well my last interactions with Batt made me really go back and look at it all again. As for now? I'm not going to shed tears if the lynch is Zaz but there's been some apathy that bothers me.

As for now? Last night was when I voted. If you're referencing the deadline yes I'd like to talk about this versus cruise control to Zaz.

Aren't you voting Batt?

Wrong tense. However, if it doesn't push through then I will be voting for Zaz and a huge portion of that is the lack of playing.

Whether or not your vote was scummy, you were on the wagon. I felt the wagon was scummy, so you kinda have to be included since you were on the wagon.

That still doesn't explain the FoS's for all but me.

??? I never voted you... I don't get this paragraph.

Wrong word: The actively unexplained vote BY me getting no response with the conjunction with the above sure does.

What do you mean by this? I don't think lurking is the driving factor behind anyone's vote on that wagon.

To a degree, sans your vote, it is a large factor. DDD's parroted you. Zaz's explanation for the wagon is bad but when combined with the lurking it was enough to push me over, Gurgi voted a deadline lynch for pressure on the lazy.

...and I thoguht there was more on the wagon.

Good lord.

[Goatrevolt]

Gurgi: How does deadline voting for pressure make any sense? How can deadline voting be anything other than to achieve a lynch?

[Battousai]

I've reread Battousai and found myself agreeing with what Goat said about him. After starting actively he's seemed more and more in the background, and alot of his reasons for suspicions are borrowed from other people.

That's because it is D1, and I'm not all too interested in the game. Once activity and information is learned, I will be more involved.

Is there something scummier about Gurgi suggesting a sub-optimal strategy than Nuwen suggesting a sub-optimal strategy?

When it comes to strategies, it all depends on how much it might benefit the scum team.

Whether or not your vote was scummy, you were on the wagon. I felt the wagon was scummy, so you kinda have to be included since you were on the wagon.

This makes absolutely no sense at all. This is basically the same point I called you out on earlier. You are applying a blanket "everyone is scummy on this wagon" statement and making no effort to differentiate what is what. You can't honestly tell me that you found a random vote on DDD to be at the same level of scumminess as Zazie or Gurgi or Llama's vote?

The idea that a wagon is scummy, thus everyone on it gets "scum points" is absurd.

You misunderstand. Spyrex's vote was random and not scummy. Then the wagon started and the 3 votes on the "lurker scum" wagon are scummy. Spyrex didn't unvote once this happened, thus he perpetuated the wagon.

[Lord Gurgi]

Goat: Umm, because I like people to defend themselves. Sometimes people are too apathetic to do so until it's really close to deadline.

SpyreX: The issue is that there's no good reason for you to decide what he did was scummy

now

as opposed to then. You didn't draw any connections to newer posts, you just seem to have decided that it has become more scummy.

[Goatrevolt]

You misunderstand. Spyrex's vote was random and not scummy. Then the wagon started and the 3 votes on the "lurker scum" wagon are scummy. Spyrex didn't unvote once this happened, thus he perpetuated the wagon.

Ok. I have no problem with this. I looked back and he did post numerous times but didn't jump off the wagon, so you have a valid point.

This isn't the impression at all I get from you saying "I kind of had to include you" though. Why would you say that if you actually did think he was scummy for sticking on the wagon rather than jumping off? Wouldn't you want to include him?

[Goatrevolt]

Goat: Umm, because I like people to defend themselves. Sometimes people are too apathetic to do so until it's really close to deadline.

Would you have pressured him if it wasn't close to deadline?

[SpyreX]

SpyreX: The issue is that there's no good reason for you to decide what he did was scummy now as opposed to then. You didn't draw any connections to newer posts, you just seem to have decided that it has become more scummy.

It rose an eye from the very beginning. However, when coupled with recent responses it turned into worth voting and bringing to discussion.

I'm thinkin Zaz will end up being the lynch. I'll even help.

That doesn't change as it congealed in my head I wanted to bring it up.