/in-Vitational Game 5, Simon Mafia 2: Game Over before 832

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

Goat points are good points.

Im interested in hearing why Batt went with Elmo over Zazie as well.

Not going to put a vote on Zazie since this is the last time I expect to be able to post untill Sunday night and putting someone at L-1 and not being around to move a vote if needed is not something im comfortable with.

For all practical purposes though I am voting zazie. I just would rather be around for a claim instead of having my vote sit there.

Zazie needs to claim or die at this point, I will be back Sunday night with intentions of putting my vote on him. He is posting away in another game at this point. as well.

[Elmo]

I think two wagons that are close together can provide us with information on how people decide to vote.

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but this was in the voting post.

I think Nuwen is more likely to defend me in that manner as town. I acknowledge it's a kinda textbook scum manoeuver, tho. LlamaFluff, I don't think you got round to explaining your vote for me..?

[Battousai]

Ya, the reason I voted Elmo over ZazieR is to see who would unvote, or vote to make one wagon the leading wagon at deadline. That is the only reason.

My plan, the whole time, was to lynch ZazieR by unvoting Elmo and voting ZazieR (effectively giving ZazieR a 2 vote distance) closer to deadline or if I felt Elmo was getting too close to being lynched.

Now that I admitted that, Goat..., I might as well vote ZazieR as everyone would have my above statement, in mind when they read the vote count.

But it is L-1 now, so I'm going to wait for ZazieR to claim or do something, before hammering.

[Goatrevolt]

Ok. I believe Battousai. That makes sense based on how he worded his Elmo vote.

Damn, that line of thought felt so good, though.

[Lord Gurgi]

So why did you folk only wake up when Goat told you? This is way too sheepy. He steps in and all three of you get right off the wagon.

[forbiddanlight]

So why did you folk only wake up when Goat told you? This is way too sheepy. He steps in and all three of you get right off the wagon.

Blinded by rage, etc.

Elmo may still be scum but I must admit the Nu-scum defense of town-mo makes a lot more sense...

[Lord Gurgi]

Why would Nuwen-scum defend Elmo from what was basically a random lynch? That was the most townie thing I've seen this whole game.

[forbiddanlight]

Why would Nuwen-scum defend Elmo from what was basically a random lynch? That was the most townie thing I've seen this whole game.

Enumerated in Spy's post. It's a great way to gain the goodwill of a townie all the while seeming like a contributory member of the town trying desperately to prevent a mislynch.

[Goatrevolt]

So why did you folk only wake up when Goat told you? This is way too sheepy.

It only makes sense for sheep (and a llama...close enough) to follow a goat.

Why would Nuwen-scum defend Elmo from what was basically a random lynch? That was the most townie thing I've seen this whole game.

Why is Nuwen focusing exclusively on Elmo while ignoring Zazie? Why is Nuwen basically using irrelevant arguments to defend Elmo?

Scum defend town who are going to get lynched to look good all the time. The key is the validity of arguments here, and the idea that we wouldn't learn much information from lynching Elmo if he's scum so we shouldn't lynch him is horrible. That has no bearing on whether or not he is scum and that's the only real importance.

The defense of Elmo was hyperfocused and completely ignored the equal sized Zazie wagon, yet Nuwen's stated rationale was to avoid lynching a lurker/non-contributor, which should have applied to both.

[Lord Gurgi]

Honestly, when I'm scum, I

dream

of random lynches. Scum can go for so long without being tied down to suspicions that way.

[forbiddanlight]

Honestly, when I'm scum, I dream of random lynches. Scum can go for so long without being tied down to suspicions that way.

But that's a shortgame gain. The longgame gain from defending a potential townie mislynch is priceless when executed properly. And I took it hook line and sinker. In fact, it was a great way to set me up for future lynch assuming Elmo is town.

[Lord Gurgi]

I suppose. You could have reread when I told you to reevaluate.

[forbiddanlight]

I suppose. You could have reread when I told you to reevaluate.

Yeah...sorry, hate doing that sort of thing. But it is enlightening. Why, in another game offsite I did a reread and it turned my suspicions completely upside down.

[Patrick]

Patrick: In Satin Doll, I was genuinely V/LA, though. I told you that post-game. "Lynch Elmo if V/LA" probably isn't a good play? (Glork was essentially right to complain about the wagon, seeing as it was started by scum and was 50% scum at lynch, imo. But we debated that already <_<)

I remember you said you were ill around the time. I think I was less inclined to cut you slack for it when you offered to replace into another game, and your illness didn't prevent you posting, though perhaps not at your best. In any case, I don't think blatantly ignoring and not contributing can be considered a town sign for competent scum players and I find it easy enough to imagine you doing it as scum. Glork said the wagon on you was for the fact that you started slowly and didn't contribute enough which was blatantly false since I stated several times I found you scummy for playing differently to how you do as town. Equally I find it annoying and possibly scummy than Nuwen comes in and trash talks the wagon on you without apparently reading what it's about.

Who are your top partner choices for Elmo?

I haven't though about it much. I suspect you and Elmo aren't scumbuddies and that if you're scum it's more likely your defending someone you know is town. That's based on experience of how I think scum interact. Lord Gurgi caught my eye because not wanting to lynch Elmo because "he tends to be helpful as either alignment" seems like a very bad reason, but thinking about it I'd say if he was scum with Elmo he'd have been less likely to draw attention to his Elmo-support with something like post 429. Pretty much anyone else could be a scumbuddy of his if he flips scum, I think. Why did the idea of scumbuddies suddenly become so important?

Gurgi, you've been here long enough to know that scum defend townies plenty. And why keep calling it random? That's annoying. I've stated multiple times why I voted Elmo, and I think FL has as well, so you can disagree with the reasons but don't keep saying they don't exist.

At this point, I'm in a state of flux, and probably shouldn't have left it until half three in the morning to make this post. After this evening I'm less comfortable with the idea that Elmo is scum, and am unsure on who to lynch. A Zazier lynch is looking kind of likely at the moment, which isn't something I'm overely excited about though he's quite possibly scum. Nobody put him at lynch-1 while I'm asleep, I think we can get more out of today.

[Nuwen]

Two pages ago Elmo was surefire scum. Sup sheeple.

I never got an answer on whom a town/scum flip would reflect on from FL. Specifically, I want to know where you'd confirm anyone as

town

one way but scum another.

Stop two-directional scumhunting, I can't even begin to emphasize how bad of an idea it is to base double alignment breakdowns on two unknown and currently-unconfirmable alignments. If Elmo ever turns up scum,

then

someone can go ahead and accuse me of defending a scumbuddy. If he's every confirmed as town,

then

go for the "scum-defending-townie-idea," (

wait now

doesn't that seem damned-if-you-do/don't to anyone else?).

I'm not outright defending Elmo right now so much as making sure every single person on the lynch wagon has crystal clear motivations and isn't able to pawn off a possible town lynch as "well,

he was acting to anti-town and unhelpful and useless

." Anti-town behavior is not always inherently scummy behavior. While it's not beneficial to the town, I want our day 1 lynch to be for scumhunting, not purging alignment-neutral players.

The Gurgi-Elmo-Nuwen trio is such a load. Do you people even think before you guys post? Isn't my vote still on Gurgi; is one of you going to call that distancing/preparing an early bus?

Noticeable commentary holes that arise as I read:
Battousai on forbiddanlight, Goatrevolt, Nuwen, Patrick
Debonair Danny DiPietro on everyone except Zazie,

want stances on at least five other players

Goatrevolt on Patrick, TDC, forbiddanlight
Gurgi spliced all alignments here
Patrick on SpyreX, TDC, kinda-Llamafluff (*1)
SpyreX on Nuwen, TDC, no opinion on Elmo until Zaz vs. Elmo decision arises
TDC on everyone except Zazie
Zazie on lololo

I don't find Zazie town or scummy at the moment. Lurking is null to me, especially when it's inactive. Everyone building a bloody case on Zaz should have called for his replacement ages ago to pull information out of the role slot, if gaining information is your goal. Pro-Zaz lynching screams opportunism and the wagon is a good place to hide on if most people in the thread are okay with lynching anti-town (but not-scummy) behavior.

Not going near that wagon with a ten foot poleaxe - I see pro-town incentive to lynch Zaz from the players in this game, just because most of them are frothing at 'scummy' behavior that's anti-town and vaguely scummy during the RVS.

Elmo's lurking is different. He's shrugged off most of the cases against him this game, rather than sycophantically picking up and commenting on cases to assuage suspicion. Adopting a "this is how I roll" attitude in public makes more sense from a town-ish perspective.

(still backreading)

[Nuwen]

I'm still catchup reading, by the way. That^ is in response to information I've gotten from recent posts plus control+Fing through isolated histories.

[forbiddanlight]

I never got an answer on whom a town/scum flip would reflect on from FL. Specifically, I want to know where you'd confirm anyone as town one way but scum another.

Huh?

Oh, no one would be confirmed as town by Elmo's flip. Why would they? Well, Patrick would be more likely town, but that's about it.

The Gurgi-Elmo-Nuwen trio is such a load. Do you people even think before you guys post? Isn't my vote still on Gurgi; is one of you going to call that distancing/preparing an early bus?

Is there any need to insult others?

And I tend to ignore votecounts. Yeah, bad habit of mine ^-^

Whatever, I'm not really in the mood to line up lynches anyway. I don't forge connections til later game. I somehow get the impression that we are going to be butting heads a lot Miss Nuwen ^-^.

[Patrick]

Two pages ago Elmo was surefire scum. Sup sheeple.

I don't think anyone has ever said that. I found him more likely to be scum but never surefire, or I'd have been calling for his head alot harder than I have been. I've been more interested in getting more out of him because I don't think I've ever misread him and I can usually get a good read with enough material, which he hasn't been giving us. It's a shame he didn't get involved earlier, but late is better than never.

The Gurgi-Elmo-Nuwen trio is such a load. Do you people even think before you guys post?

Who is that addressed too? I think only forbiddanlight has suggested this.

[forbiddanlight]

Who is that addressed too? I think only forbiddanlight has suggested this.

Obv me. Also, I thought Nuwen unvoted Gurgi awhile ago. Cause I remember asking about that...or was it Gurgi voting Nuwen...

[Nuwen]

Whatever, I'm not really in the mood to line up lynches anyway. I don't forge connections til later game. I somehow get the impression that we are going to be butting heads a lot Miss Nuwen ^-^.

It's okay, I hate everyone pretty equally.

^_^

[forbiddanlight]

It's okay, I hate everyone pretty equally.

^_^

Oh lovely. And here I was hoping to think the best of you.

[Patrick]

Obv me. Also, I thought Nuwen unvoted Gurgi awhile ago. Cause I remember asking about that...or was it Gurgi voting Nuwen...

It seemed to address multiple people. I'm only really pointing it out in case she read my post quickly and thought I was suggesting that scum trio.

Nuwen's recent post looks better, on a first read. Now I really am off to bed.

[Goatrevolt]

Patrick: His scumhunting has seemed genuine all game. His willingness to re-evaluate Elmo in context of your Elmo-defense speaks to a pro-town change of mindset based on the presentation of new information.

TDC: My gut says his reactions to LlamaFluff seemed real. My logical side says the recent lurking, the lack of any kind of scumhunting presence whatsoever, and still no vote on page 22 is awful, though. Neutral, leaning town.

Forbiddan: I don't see that claim coming from scum. The lack of counterclaim means if she is a scum bellhop she's the only one (there can BE only one). I guess it's possible there is a town bellhop waiting to CC, but that seems less likely. I'm fairly confident she's town.

Everyone building a bloody case on Zaz should have called for his replacement ages ago to pull information out of the role slot, if gaining information is your goal.

Does yesterday count as ages ago?

I will say this much. If either of you are town, do us a favor and get replaced (or genuinely stop lurking). Seriously. If you know you're not going to actually play the game, get out now and let someone who will get in. Responding to prods but then following it up with doing nothing is destructive.

----------------

Waiting on you to address my points.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Debonair Danny DiPietro on everyone except Zazie,

want stances on at least five other players

See 343. It basically looks like Nuwen is flailing around at this point and he arguments aren't really doing anything for me. The flailing is probably a minor town tell since I usually expect scum to behave with a bit more subtlety and tact.

I don't like Goat's reaction to his Battousi questioning. Goat is already on the record for not liking "lol reactions" wagons and that appears to me to be Batt's explanation for his vote. For Goat to accept such an explanation doesn't sit right with me.

[Lord Gurgi]

Patrick, even if that wasn't why

you

were on the wagon, that's why the other three were. That makes the wagon random.

Nuwen: What does splicing all alignments mean?