Newbie 817 (Game over!)

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

A Hiphop/Starbuck pair doesn't really make sense- Starbuck was hammering Hiphop quite a bit back in day one. And now Hiphop is hammering Starbuck. One of them being mafia I'd agree with, but both? I don't quite follow your read that they're both mafia.

I don't have another pairing I can find at this point. I proposed it mainly because, if they are pair, Starbuck hammering on hiphop was exactly what she should have done, since hiphop was being scummy. You're sort of implying that they would either ignore one another or defend each other. That's not optimal scum play - if your partner acts scummy, you should attack him and try to get him lynched. This is where the term bussing comes from; it means to throw your partner under a bus, and therefore make yourself look better.

For day 2, when starbuck started getting in trouble and the wagon shifted, hiphop jumped right in when I would have thought that he should have done so much earlier in the day. I would have also expected him to attack start as well. As a hypothetical example, hiphopTown knows he's town, and therefore someone attacking him could possibly be scum, and therefore he should show some type of suspicion in the form of a Vote/FoS. Again I'm going to bring up timing, which was brought up before by start, but it fits. The timing of the attack is off to me. A vote for start, followed by a quick FoS, then vote for starbuck? This looks more like hiphopScum having successfully defended himself, now his partner is in trouble, so he's going to attack her and make himself look fantastic going into the endgame.

As I said, the reason I didn't put start and hiphop together is because start looks town to me. hiphop has interacted with both start and starbuck in a similar manner, but start looks more town as far as my read goes.

I need to read the last few posts again to answer any other questions that may have been posed. I'll make another post tonight (Eastern) after my son is in bed.

[Elmo]

Day 2, Vote Count #5

hiphop (3) <- Starbuck, Vel-Rahn Koon, bouchedufou
Starbuck <- Petunho

Not voting: crazypianist1116, startransmission, hiphop

The

deadline

is Monday 7th September, 22:00 UTC, which is 1 day, 6 hours and 9 minutes from this post. If deadline hits, there will be No Lynch.
With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

[hiphop]

@Crazy- Your post is kind of long could you summarize.

You say I am fencesitting? Fencesitting is attacking someone without voting for them. I voted for both. Not fencesitting.

As for part two of my reasons to vote Mae, it can be applied to anybody, because anybody can be scum. Nobody can be declared innocent until a PR says so.

Referring to bouch, in his first post I wasn’t at L-1, was I? I wanted him to think for himself, which he is doing now.

The justification that Start did was unnecessary. Since he justified before the lynch, did he really need to do it afterwards?

My vote is self-defense. Think about it. Scum would kill all of us off. My vote is the only way to get back at scum.

What evidence do you need for me to attack you? There are no facts, except alignment.

Who is suspicious of me for attacking Starbuck? Only you it seems.

The Jeromus quotes are the perfect thing scum might do. Attack during the RVS, when nobody will be suspicious of it, yet it leaves an impression in one’s mind that these two cannot be scum together.

We have to eliminate some people, so the only way is with scum pairs.

This is why I hate lurkers. They don’t let the arguments settle. By the time they read it still is fresh in their minds, so they don’t think about it. While if Crazy was actually staying with the game, he could think about what has been said instead of having an initial reaction. Also my posts can be fresh in my mind instead of having to go read back at what has been said.

@Vrk- If someone attacks me you are saying I should attack them back? That is OMGUS. There was no reason to attack her, so I didn’t. Everybody makes scum tells (some not as many as others), so technically everybody can be attacked. Everybody has a right to attack everybody. If somebody attacks me, does that mean I should attack them. The only person that hasn’t attacked me is Petunho. Technically he did because Jeromus attacked Bagsquad. Are you saying I should attack everybody?

@bouch Now that I read back, your vote on me seems the same as my vote on Mae. Strange how nobody attacks you for it.

@Starbuck @your 348 post- way to seem active.

@town- you lynch me, I flip town, what would you do? This is who I find scummiest

vote:startransmission

[startransmission]

I don't have another pairing I can find at this point. I proposed it mainly because, if they are pair, Starbuck hammering on hiphop was exactly what she should have done, since hiphop was being scummy. You're sort of implying that they would either ignore one another or defend each other. That's not optimal scum play - if your partner acts scummy, you should attack him and try to get him lynched. This is where the term bussing comes from; it means to throw your partner under a bus, and therefore make yourself look better.

I understand where you're coming from, but I just don't see it. Starbuck was really after hiphop during the last half of day 1. She pursued his lynch and in many ways led the charge, despite being the third voter. If they were partners I could see Starbuck bussing hiphop if he was an awful player and his lynch was a sure thing, but she voted for him fairly early on, and kept that vote there until it was clear the momentum had shifted. If she was trying to bus him then that shit was pretty cold, and above all unnecessary. Not impossible, but it seems like a pretty big stretch.

@Crazy- thanks for that post. It's good to read a well researched and explained post that reaffirms my suspicions. I've said it a million times, but I'd bet the farm that either hiphop or Starbuck is scum... and I really want to put my vote in the right place. hiphop was my first choice, and even while I presented my Starbuck case and placed pressure on her, I was leaning hiphop. Most of your post contains stuff that has already been said, but it did help wipe the last smudge of doubt out of my head.

So, I'll be voting for hiphop tomorrow. If my vote means his lynch, I actually hope to be the hammer. I've spent so much time arguing with him that I kinda savor the chance.

Who is suspicious of me for attacking Starbuck? Only you it seems

I believe VRK and Starbuck and others have brought it up. I for one found it suspicious. You OMGUS me, we have a big debate... then I switch gears for a second, and you come around and vote for the person you said you thought was most likely town based off the argument of the person you think is most likely scum? Of course people are going to find that suspicious.

The justification that Start did was unnecessary. Since he justified before the lynch, did he really need to do it afterwards?

I addressed this already

. I wasn't justifying anything, I was pointing out what was wrong with your reasons for voting Mae by presenting mine (and everybody elses) reasons for voting Mae as a

contrast

to your reasons. This is a dead horse, yet you keep beating it.

@bouch Now that I read back, your vote on me seems the same as my vote on Mae. Strange how nobody attacks you for it.

Seems the same? Is he hammering you and then saying he never thought you were scum? His vote for you is not even in the same ballpark. And way to play the victim card.

@town- you lynch me, I flip town, what would you do? This is who I find scummiest vote:startransmission

If you flip town then I will go after Starbuck. The more important question that town should be asking themselves is when you flip scum, who do we go after next? I'm in the same predicament that VRK is... I can't get a scumbuddy read on anybody.

[hiphop]

I understand where you're coming from, but I just don't see it. Starbuck was really after hiphop during the last half of day 1. She pursued his lynch and in many ways led the charge, despite being the third voter. If they were partners I could see Starbuck bussing hiphop if he was an awful player and his lynch was a sure thing, but she voted for him fairly early on, and kept that vote there until it was clear the momentum had shifted. If she was trying to bus him then that shit was pretty cold, and above all unnecessary. Not impossible, but it seems like a pretty big stretch.

See you can't find a likely partner for me, which means I am probably not scum. That is why we should attack buddies, and not individauls.

So, I'll be voting for hiphop tomorrow. If my vote means his lynch, I actually hope to be the hammer. I've spent so much time arguing with him that I kinda savor the chance.

Hate to ruin your mood, but I am not scum.

I believe VRK and Starbuck and others have brought it up. I for one found it suspicious. You OMGUS me, we have a big debate... then I switch gears for a second, and you come around and vote for the person you said you thought was most likely town based off the argument of the person you think is most likely scum? Of course people are going to find that suspicious.

I can't attack someone without voting or FOS somebody. Otherwise I would be fencesitting. I for one like to look at the other possibility, being that you might be town. If that is the case your case against Starbuck might be town scumhunting.

I addressed this already

. I wasn't justifying anything, I was pointing out what was wrong with your reasons for voting Mae by presenting mine (and everybody elses) reasons for voting Mae as a

contrast

to your reasons. This is a dead horse, yet you keep beating it.

I thought you said you read Crazy's post here let me show what he wrote:

But he justified his vote before the lynch as well...

See he brought it up as an accusation against me. If some lurker is going to bring up and old post I will defend myself, and point out the reason why I brought it up in the first place. Blame it on the lurker, not me.

Seems the same? Is he hammering you and then saying he never thought you were scum? His vote for you is not even in the same ballpark. And way to play the victim card.

Bouch said that I almost seem like town. Does that make sense?

If you flip town then I will go after Starbuck. The more important question that town should be asking themselves is when you flip scum, who do we go after next? I'm in the same predicament that VRK is... I can't get a scumbuddy read on anybody.

No matter how hard you look there is no connection, because I am not scum.

@VRK Do you think it is likely that both scum are on my BW? Or would they be fencesitting like Crazy (who didn’t even FOS me, but attacked me)?

[crazypianist1116]

This is why I hate lurkers. They don’t let the arguments settle. By the time they read it still is fresh in their minds, so they don’t think about it. While if Crazy was actually staying with the game, he could think about what has been said instead of having an initial reaction. Also my posts can be fresh in my mind instead of having to go read back at what has been said.

Entire cases can be built on evidence after arguments have "settled." Either way, I was V/LA in case you didn't notice so I wasn't able to keep up with the game.

I understand where you're coming from, but I just don't see it. Starbuck was really after hiphop during the last half of day 1. She pursued his lynch and in many ways led the charge, despite being the third voter. If they were partners I could see Starbuck bussing hiphop if he was an awful player and his lynch was a sure thing, but she voted for him fairly early on, and kept that vote there until it was clear the momentum had shifted. If she was trying to bus him then that shit was pretty cold, and above all unnecessary. Not impossible, but it seems like a pretty big stretch.

See you can't find a likely partner for me, which means I am probably not scum. That is why we should attack buddies, and not individauls.

Now you really sound like you're trying not to get caught.

So, I'll be voting for hiphop tomorrow. If my vote means his lynch, I actually hope to be the hammer. I've spent so much time arguing with him that I kinda savor the chance.

Hate to ruin your mood, but I am not scum.

Because scum would obviously say they're scum.
Startran, I wanted to be the hammer vote but you can too

I believe VRK and Starbuck and others have brought it up. I for one found it suspicious. You OMGUS me, we have a big debate... then I switch gears for a second, and you come around and vote for the person you said you thought was most likely town based off the argument of the person you think is most likely scum? Of course people are going to find that suspicious.

I can't attack someone without voting or FOS somebody. Otherwise I would be fencesitting. I for one like to look at the other possibility, being that you might be town. If that is the case your case against Starbuck might be town scumhunting.

Um, fencesitting is not making a decision between voting for two players, which is how you originally used it. You're changing your definition.

I addressed this already

. I wasn't justifying anything, I was pointing out what was wrong with your reasons for voting Mae by presenting mine (and everybody elses) reasons for voting Mae as a

contrast

to your reasons. This is a dead horse, yet you keep beating it.

I thought you said you read Crazy's post here let me show what he wrote:

But he justified his vote before the lynch as well...

See he brought it up as an accusation against me. If some lurker is going to bring up and old post I will defend myself, and point out the reason why I brought it up in the first place. Blame it on the lurker, not me.

I was looking at you in iso (only your posts). You said that you thought he had bad justification after the lynch but he justified himself when he originally voted.

Seems the same? Is he hammering you and then saying he never thought you were scum? His vote for you is not even in the same ballpark. And way to play the victim card.

Bouch said that I almost seem like town. Does that make sense?

But he said

However, your play style really makes me uncomfortable and make me think you're mafia ... It's just the way you're jumping around makes me feel very uncomfortable.

You're probably his #1 suspect.

If you flip town then I will go after Starbuck. The more important question that town should be asking themselves is when you flip scum, who do we go after next? I'm in the same predicament that VRK is... I can't get a scumbuddy read on anybody.

No matter how hard you look there is no connection, because I am not scum.

@VRK Do you think it is likely that both scum are on my BW? Or would they be fencesitting like Crazy (who didn’t even FOS me, but attacked me)?

I think it would be weird for VRK to think that both scum are on your BW as he is voting for you thus he thinks you're scum.

[hiphop]

Now you really sound like you're trying not to get caught.

How so?

Because scum would obviously say they're scum.

If I had finished a game on this site I would post it, but I haven't. All I can say is it is my playstyle.

Um, fencesitting is not making a decision between voting for two players, which is how you originally used it. You're changing your definition.

Um, is there a dictionary around here. Fencesitting is not not making a decision between voting two players, but attacking someone without voting for them. It is what scum would do. Kind of like what Petunho did. He made a case against Starbuck, but didn't vote. Start made a vote based on that post, then Petunho came back and voted based on his original case. He was testing the waters before he voted, to see if somebody would follow him. Attack several different people, but don't commit to one single person, when somebody attacks a certain person, follow that somebody and attack too, based on one's original argument. That is fencesitting and that is how I originally used the term. That is also scummy.

I was looking at you in iso (only your posts). You said that you thought he had bad justification after the lynch but he justified himself when he originally voted.

I never had a problem with his original justification, it is his second one that I have a problem with. He said it was to show why my reason to vote was wrong, but I can read, and I know what it says. The post where his second justification is does not tell anything about using his justifiaction as an example.

But he said

However, your play style really makes me uncomfortable and make me think you're mafia ... It's just the way you're jumping around makes me feel very uncomfortable.

You're probably his #1 suspect.

Oh, so someone that is almost town can be scum. Interesting point. That was sarcasm.

I think it would be weird for VRK to think that both scum are on your BW as he is voting for you thus he thinks you're scum.

Oh, but I say I am not. Which is true. And if I am town do you think both scum are on my BW?

[Petunho]

I'm back from V/LA. I have exam next 5 hours and I'll post my feelings in a longer post after the exam.

Crazy made a good post against hiphop and like it has been told many times during this day; hiphop looks scummy. Still he defences himself in some kind of honest way. I don't get the sneekyscummy vibes from his posts, but the content of his posts are disturbing and scum like. I mean that the basevibe of the posts isn't that disturbing as the content is. There is so much attacks against him that it's difficult to see his partner, but unlike hiphop says we can lynch a person without seeing his partner.

I personally dont like the part where hiphop finds Start the most suspicous, Starbuck the most town and after Start voting for Starbuck hiphop goes after Starbuck. It sounds like he tries first a small Appeal to Emotion and after that didn't work he goes more aggressive against Starbuck. Don't like that part at all.

I'm happy where my vote is, but I'm willing to look deeper into it after my exam.

[bouchedufou]

Sorry I've been letting everyone else defend me. Had a long day.

Oh, so someone that is almost town can be scum. Interesting point. That was sarcasm.

The reason I said you seemed almost town is because that point about P/S was quite interesting, in my opinion. Notice the almost- it doesn't make you any less scummy, it's just that I felt this was a valid point to have been made, even if you were still jumping around. However, those suspicions still remain. No-one else seems to think a P/S pair is likely. I don't think Starbuck is scummy. So I'll stick with you.

[Petunho]

Hmmm scumbuddies hmmm...

I know I said this earlier:

...unlike hiphop says we can lynch a person without seeing his partner.

but I really cannot come back to this scumbuddy thing.

I would agree with myself but after looking back for posts it seems really really weird that everybody are against hiphop. What we are facing here?

A) hiphop and his partner are doing great job distacing themselves.
B) Scums are doing great job getting hiphop lynched.

Who on Earth could be hiphop's buddy?

Starbuck, Start and VRK have made good job attacking him all day long. Bouch and Crazy have been in the background most of the time looking at the situation. Bouch voted for hiphop after hiphop himself almost ordered him to vote. Crazy hasn't voted a single time during the second day and has been more active lynching hiphop towards the end of day two. Actually the first proper post against hiphop was made yesterday.

Could hiphop and his scumbuddy agreed that they will attack hiphop from the start to get other look really good? This would go to extreme tactics and I haven't played enough to wittness this... no yes I have. BattleMage did this on my Mini 533 where he replaces me as scum. He bussed his buddy on day 3. I'm very intrigued on this case.

hiphop has acted scummy and in normal case there wouldn't much to argue about, but I really find it interesting that whole town is against him. It doesn't prove anything on side or other on hiphop's innocent/guiltiness, but really interesting all together.

There isn't question if there is 2 scums on hiphops bandwagon. Everybody are on it!

[crazypianist1116]

3 hours.

[startransmission]

I would agree with myself but after looking back for posts it seems really really weird that everybody are against hiphop. What we are facing here?

If hiphop flips scum it's probable that his partner bussed him, unless you or crazy is his partner. I know I would. The timing of the votes can be a clue... but that's something that can really only be tackled on day 3.

A) hiphop and his partner are doing great job distacing themselves.
B) Scums are doing great job getting hiphop lynched.

I lean towards option B. Not to antagonize you, but hiphops obsession with us being partners could be a means of distancing himself from you.

Could hiphop and his scumbuddy agreed that they will attack hiphop from the start to get other look really good? This would go to extreme tactics and I haven't played enough to wittness this... no yes I have. BattleMage did this on my Mini 533 where he replaces me as scum. He bussed his buddy on day 3. I'm very intrigued on this case.

I was lucky enough to play in a game with BM once, I hope I get to again in the future, he's a fun player. I doubt that if hiphop is scum there was a discussion during the night about any possible bussing. hiphop came into day 2 not being very high on anybody's scum list, with possibly the exception of Starbuck. He made a mess of things pretty soon... I'm sure the (possible) bussing was improvised.

There isn't question if there is 2 scums on hiphops bandwagon. Everybody are on it!

So you don't believe hiphop to be scum? I know your vote is on Starbuck, but you yourself point out how scummy hiphop is. I'm confused by this statement.

Ok, two hours give or take. Now is the time for some activity... I'd like to hear from Starbuck and VRK before the deadline.

[startransmission]

EBWOP

A) hiphop and his partner are doing great job distacing themselves.
B) Scums are doing great job getting hiphop lynched.

I lean towards option A. Not to antagonize you, but hiphops obsession with us being partners could be a means of distancing himself from you.

[startransmission]

*crickets chirping*

[crazypianist1116]

*crickets chirping*

Eh I don't think anyone else is going to post in the next hour.

[crazypianist1116]

Ok if someone else doesn't post, I'm hammering.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

@Vrk- If someone attacks me you are saying I should attack them back? That is OMGUS.

No, OMGUS is attacking someone back with no basis for the attack. The acronym stands for "Oh My God, You Suck", which is hardly a reason to vote for someone.

There was no reason to attack her, so I didn’t. Everybody makes scum tells (some not as many as others), so technically everybody can be attacked. Everybody has a right to attack everybody. If somebody attacks me, does that mean I should attack them. The only person that hasn’t attacked me is Petunho. Technically he did because Jeromus attacked Bagsquad. Are you saying I should attack everybody?

Yet you're perfectly happy throwing a vote on her based on start's early case, with no additional input from yourself? This looks like distancing/bussing to me (see Timing, above).

@bouch Now that I read back, your vote on me seems the same as my vote on Mae. Strange how nobody attacks you for it.

@Starbuck @your 348 post- way to seem active.

@town- you lynch me, I flip town, what would you do? This is who I find scummiest

vote:startransmission

Now start is scummiest because.....?????

56 minutes or so until deadline, I'm keeping my vote where it is.

RE: 354:

We should only focus on people who are tied together? Why? When is it a number one priority of scum to link themselves together? To be honest, it would be more beneficial from a Mafia PoV for the scum to link themselves to as many

townies

as possible so that if they do get taken down, there are more people to look at as possible partners.

And you saying "I'm not scum" over and over again isn't good enough.

@start, for 353: it's a theory. I don't have anything better.

@crazy, 355: Please, don't answer for others. It's only been said now twice.

speaking in the hypothetical: IF you are town, I don't necessarily think both scum are on your wagon. You've been scummy enough on your own yesterday and today that both scum wouldn't need to be on your wagon to secure a lynch - almost everyone here has voiced suspicion of you. There's only two scum in those 6 players and we only need 4 votes.

[sarcasm]

Since I think you're scum though, I'm pretty sure both scum are NOT on your wagon, unless of course you'd like to hammer yourself.

[/sarcasm]

363/364: I said I'd be here to secure a lynch if necessary, and I'm leaving my vote as is. As of now, there will be a No Lynch in 40 minutes if we don't get one more vote.

[startransmission]

Ok, I hope I'm making the right decision. I believe I am.

Vote: hiphop

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

@hiphop:

speaking in the hypothetical: IF you are town, I don't necessarily think both scum are on your wagon. You've been scummy enough on your own yesterday and today that both scum wouldn't need to be on your wagon to secure a lynch - almost everyone here has voiced suspicion of you. There's only two scum in those 6 players and we only need 4 votes.

You've been scummy enough that it wouldn't surprise me to learn that no scum were on your wagon. Again, IF you're town.

EBWOP:

Added in the Red text.

[Elmo]

Day 2, Vote Count #6

hiphop (4) <- Starbuck, Vel-Rahn Koon, bouchedufou, startransmission
Starbuck <- Petunho

Not voting: crazypianist1116, hiphop

The

deadline

is Monday 7th September, 22:00 UTC, which is 24 minutes from this post. If deadline hits, there will be No Lynch.
With 7 alive, it's 4 to lynch.

---

hiphop

,

Vanilla Townie

, has been lynched!

Night 2 falls. Day 3 will dawn at Thursday 10th September, 22:00 UTC, which is 3 days and 24 minutes from this post.
Any night actions are due before then; if you don't get it in, I'll randomly make one for you. Mafia may now talk.

[Elmo]

Petunho

,

Vanilla Townie

, has been killed!

Day 3 dawns. Mafia may no longer talk.
The

deadline

is Thursday 1st October, 22:00 UTC, which is 20 days, 23 hours and 53 minutes from this post. If deadline hits, there will be No Lynch.
With 5 alive, it's 3 to lynch.

[Starbuck]

I'm definitely going to need to do some re-reading. Hiphop flipping town surprised me quite a bit.

[startransmission]

Hiphop flipping town surprised me quite a bit.

I'll bet.

But it did surprise me. I would apologize to hiphop, but his behavior did scum alot of favors, and town none.

As promised I'm going after Starbuck. Please see my post 287 for exactly why.

Vote: Starbuck

We're at lylo now... we have to be right on this, and I'm positive that Starbuck is scum.

[bouchedufou]

Er... Startran, your post 287 does not explain why you're going after Starbuck. It only states why you were going after hiphop.

Dammit. But I thought Starbuck was innocent. She defended hiphop when he replaced in, rather than just go along with an easy lynch.

[startransmission]

Er... Startran, your post 287 does not explain why you're going after Starbuck. It only states why you were going after hiphop.

My bad, I meant post 299.

Dammit. But I thought Starbuck was innocent. She defended hiphop when he replaced in, rather than just go along with an easy lynch.

I accused her of defending, or rather taking hiphop under her wing, in post 159. She denies ever defending him in post 160. And at what point on Day 1 was hiphop an easy lynch? He made himself look bad, got two votes, and Starbuck supplied a third- that didn't even put him at L-1. When iamausersname voted Mae that made her a potential easy lynch, and Starbucks abrupt vote switch put her at L-1. I lay that out in post 299... sorry about the confusion.