Stars Aligned - GAME OVER

[Sarag]

Vote: Furpants_Tom

Just what the hell are you doing?!
Creating mindless wagons, Buddying to chensi, Having shit logic, aso...

Lynching your stalk target? Oh no!!

[Sarag]

I really don't like the current mindless bandwagoning...

*twitch* Agree.

Oh come on, that's a ridiculous, kneejerk response to what's actually happening.

They didn't say exactly what they were referring to. But regardless, I think both bandwagons have cases, neither are mindless. Although there do seem to be a few just hopping on without much of a reason.

Perhaps chenhsi and nhammen could elaborate on exactly what they are objecting to. Who do you think is mindlessly bandwagoning at the moment? If you're talking about the following three, then I agree:

ZykeZero - voting chenhsi, claims to be following nhammen
chenhsi - voting DN, apparently agrees with Tom's argument (also obviously a competitor to his own lynch)
Pablo Molinero - voted chenhsi, claiming to be following the crowd, then DN, saying others are smarter than him

[Cass]

My scumlist right now:
- Chenhsi - mindless bandwagoning + complaining about the same... Plus the earlier scumslip make me very happy with my vote
- Pablo - very scummy jump on the DN bandwagon
- Datadanne - for thinking DN is actually town... and sounding very scummy in general
- Dramonic. Still can't trust him, he's just acting so very anti-town.
- Deathnote (though I'm starting to lean towards useless town, mainly because this scumlist is getting way too long...)

[DeathNote]

Yes I have claimed to have res kit but that does not mean I used it.

Just to help everyone latter on, in case I get vigged or voted off soon, I used res on Exalt last night.

Contradict much? LAL

You twisted this around. The second post here came before the first. Not to mention, I only voted for myself once, not twice.

[Furpants_Tom]

That's probably why he says "previously" above the second one. Implying that it was written previous to the first.

And it looks to me like you voted for yourself twice, on 2:51am Tues 28th July and at 2:10pm 28th of July - it's just that you didn't vote for anyone else in-between.

Just to, y'know, keep it factual and stuff.

[Magua]

Wow. Big huge bandwagon. I'm a little surprised. And I don't like a DeathNote lynch today if he's going to be killed tonight. It's a waste of a lynch, and I'm also disturbed at everyone who either:
1) agreed it was a waste of a lynch, and is now agreeing it's a great lynch, or
2) doesn't care enough and will just follow along either way.

But, first, let me get this out of the way: DeathNote should die. I do not disagree with this at all. What I disagree with is using our lynch to do this, when we have a claimed stalk on him who can do it tonight, freeing us up to lynch someone else.

"But," I read, "What if DeathNote doesn't die tonight?"

This is a fine question, but the answers seem obvious. If DeathNote doesn't die tonight, it's for one of the following reasons:

1) Someone resuscitated him. This is great. This means an antitown faction (either cult or murderer) used up *two* actions (the equip and the resuscitate), and got bloody. If they were a cult, that's two fetishes not being crafted. If they were murderer, that's a person not stalked or killed.
2) Datadanne doesn't kill him. This is great. This means that Datadanne is confirmed antitown.

On the other hand, if DeathNote *does* die, Datadanne is cleared of being one of the n1 murderers, and is pretty clear of being cult. And, we got to lynch someone else.

So I see no reason why this is not the plan:

1) Lynch someone who is scummy, but is not Datadanne or DeathNote. I like Jebus, although I'm liking Pablo a lot more now, too.
2) If DeathNote dies during the night, the plan worked.
3) If DeathNote *doesn't* die during the night, lynch Datadanne, and then lynch DeathNote.

Finally, before the objections of "Datadanne could be a murderer": If DeathNote dies tonight, we know for sure Datadanne is not one of the n1 murderers, so could only be 1/3 of the way to the goal. As is the same case with Dramonic, we have plenty of time to watch/research and see if their insanity is skyrocketing.

If we *do* lynch DeathNote today, we get no information about Datadanne, and chances are, we're going to end up lynching Datadanne tomorrow. The DN lynch takes away information that we would otherwise have. That is why I'm against it.

[Datadanne]

Pssth, Don´t blame me if DN flips town...

19th, zomg.
4 Day deadline -.-

chenhsi - 7 (semioldguy, Cass, nhammen, ZykeZero, DeathNote, dramonic)
DeathNote - 5 (Furpants_Tom, Slysly, Chenhsi, Pablo_Molinero, Sarag)
James Bond - 1 (Kise)
dramonic - 1 (Sajin)
Jebus - 1 (Magua)
Furpants_Tom

Not Voting - 5 (Datadanne, JamesBond, ryan2754, Jebus, sykedoc)

With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch.

[Datadanne]

Oops, Im voting tom...

[nhammen]

Wow. Big huge bandwagon. I'm a little surprised. And I don't like a DeathNote lynch today if he's going to be killed tonight. It's a waste of a lynch, and I'm also disturbed at everyone who either:
1) agreed it was a waste of a lynch, and is now agreeing it's a great lynch, or
2) doesn't care enough and will just follow along either way.

This is what I meant when I agreed with chenhsi. This instant change of mind about the DeathNote lynch is very odd.

3) If DeathNote *doesn't* die during the night, lynch Datadanne, and then lynch DeathNote.

Why is this the order that you suggest... And why are you suggesting two quicklynches in a row. Why isn't your plan one of:
lynch Datadanne, and if he flips town, then lynch DeathNote
lynch DeathNote, and if he flips town, then lynch Datadanne

You have just flown waaaay up my scummeter. *twitch*

I really believe that we should give Datadanne the chance to vig DeathNote tonight. Then, if DeathNote doesn't die, we decide between DeathNote and Datadanne tomorrow. It is much easier to get information off of competing bandwagons anyways. In fact, that is why the game has suddenly sped up, now that we have a competition between chenhsi and DeathNote.

[Magua]

Why is this the order that you suggest... And why are you suggesting two quicklynches in a row. Why isn't your plan one of:
lynch Datadanne, and if he flips town, then lynch DeathNote
lynch DeathNote, and if he flips town, then lynch Datadanne

The order is the order I suggested because, in my estimation, if DN is not dead tomorrow, it is more likely that Datadanne didn't kill than that DN was resuscitated.

I wasn't suggesting any quicklynches. I was outlining why lynching DN or Datadanne today was a bad plan.

You have just flown waaaay up my scummeter. *twitch*

Given the last two pages of posts, you're either abusing hyperbole or tunneling.

[Percy]

Vote Count

chenhsi - 6 (semioldguy, Cass, nhammen, ZykeZero, DeathNote, dramonic)

DeathNote - 5 (Furpants_Tom, SlySly, chenhsi, Sarag, Pablo Molinero)
Furpants_Tom - 1 (Datadanne)
James Bond - 1 (Kise)
dramonic - 1 (Sajin)
Jebus - 1 (Magua)

Not Voting - 4 (JamesBond, ryan2754, Jebus, sykedoc)

Deadline

:

Midday on Saturday the 19th of September AEST (9pm Friday 18th site time)

.

V/LA

: semioldguy.

Requested Replacement

: sykedoc, JamesBond.

Prodding

: ryan2754, Jebus, Sajin.

Deadline is in

three days.

With 19 alive it takes 10 to lynch.

[Sajin]

Prod recieved.

A Deathnote lynch makes no sense as there is a claimed stalk on him. Therefore we get more reads based on whatever happens with that situation, and lynching now would be depriving us of that information and is therefore antitown.

Therefore I must assume all on the deathnote wagon are doing one (or more) of the following:

1- Protecting deathnote
2- Protecting datadyne
3- Pursuing an ineffective strategy


If you are currently on the deathnote wagon I want to know why. Now. And do not be saying generic scumtell this or generic scumtell that. Thats a horrible reason to have so quickly bandwagon someone that should be dieing anyways.

Failure to provide a good reason will be providing me a good reason to vig you.

[dramonic]

I'm surprised you're not vigging me Sajin.


Dram hater

[Furpants_Tom]

Prod recieved.

A Deathnote lynch makes no sense as there is a claimed stalk on him...

Did you even read the last three pages?

Let me sum it up for you:

If you do not vote for Deathnote, you are voting to let him live. Any plan where the

best case scenario

is that you've killed a townie and moved another townie 1/3 of the way towards an anti-town win condition is asinine.
That plan gets even worse if - in the very likely case of failure - you learn absolutely nothing about either of the participants.

It is not advantageous to simply drop more bodies in this game, especially if we currently have a numbers advantage. It is not advantageous to license so-called "vigs" - which are actually nothing of the sort, they are serial killer kills that move players currently on our team down an anti-town track.

Datadanne is probably already a murderer. That doesn't mean he's an N1 killer, it just means that he's chosen psychopathy as his insanity. Killing Deathnote does not clear Datadanne of anything. He could even be a cultist who chose that insanity on N0, and is happy to announce it since he's the last man standing. Giving him a free kill is beyond stupid.

If you think Deathnote is scummy, and you are not voting for Deathnote, you are doing one of three things:

1- Protecting deathnote
2- Protecting datadyne
3- Pursuing an ineffective strategy

Threats to vig townies who disagree with you are a good reason to lynch you.

[dramonic]

meh, data said he'd murder him tonight, if DN survives we can kill em tomorrow.

[dramonic]

meh, vote stimulation go!

Unvote
Vote: DN

[Sajin]

@Tom-

1-Your ignoring the information part of the arguement completely.

2- Why waste a lynch if we deathnote will be vigged anyways?

Threats to vig townies who disagree with you are a good reason to lynch you.

You know everyone who is voting for deathnote is town?

[Furpants_Tom]

So a probable cultist gets an extra night to play havoc? And we have to wait two nights to find out Deathnote's alignment? And we're giving away kills like candy to probable murderers?

If you're serious about winning, it's actually a really simple game:

1. Pick the person you think is scummiest.
2. Vote to lynch them.

Anyone trying to convince you otherwise has another agenda.

[chenhsi]

I am not mindless bandwagoning, or am not in the same sense that I am annoyed with others about.

I am voting because I see DeathNote as scummy. I already wanted to vote him beforehand, except that I thought that he was going to be vigged. Since Furpants_Tom gave a good argument why this was a bad idea, I voted for DN.

What I mean by mindless bandwagoning are the people who say something like "Oh look bandwagon, I am going to vote too" or "I'm confused and I trust other people so I'll vote with them".

[Furpants_Tom]

@Tom-

1-Your ignoring the information part of the arguement completely.

OK, I'm interested. What do we learn tomorrow if:

a) Deathnote is dead
b) Deathnote is alive

2- Why waste a lynch if we deathnote will be vigged anyways?

Because we can't guarantee that "vig"; and even if it works, it's not a vig, it's a serial killer hit that gives Datadanne and any other killer smart enough to piggy-back off his kill a free kick towards victory.

[dramonic]

a) what killed him
b) Datadanne lied

[Sajin]

1a- that data is unlikey cult, we have also gained a town approved kill and essentially an extra lynch
1b- that data lied and is likely cult or deathnote is cult. A classic 1 and 1 scenario or both being scum.

1c- Your ignoring the fact that we would actually get this in addition to another lynch for the day. Why does 1 more day for scum matter if the end result is more scummy people die faster?

2- I do not disagree with your assertation that data is a good canidate for a murderer. Why would a vig of a cultist prove him non murderer?

2b Your point does not address the fact that we would get another town controlled kill.

[Furpants_Tom]

a) what killed him
b) Datadanne lied

a) So we know there's a killer, and it's probably Datadanne. But we have no way of telling whether he's still town or not - so how does that assist, exactly?

b) No we don't. The cult could res'd Deathnote - which is exactly what Datadanne will claim. We will have no way of telling who is lying and who is telling the truth, so we end up having to lynch one or both anyway - we just give the guilty one more time to take night actions.

[dramonic]

either way, there is only one kill that has yet to be explained night 1.

Even if Data/whoever else is murderer, they'll have to somehow survive till night 6 to win. This is definitely not a priority.

[Furpants_Tom]

There is a central problem with your analyses here:

You think more town kills = good.
Therefore, it's OK to sacrifice accuracy and reliability for the chance to get more kills.

That is simply not true.

Because of the way the murderer mechanic works, more kills means more chance of actually increasing the pool of anti-town players - every murderer is a -2 swing against the town. It means the loyal townies have diminished ability to check for blood and insanities. It means that the "vigs" aren't performing useful investigative actions, or protecting victims from the ritual; they essentially wasted for 3 nights, while they stalk, kill and launder.

Yes, a murderer won't win next turn. But neither will the town - in fact, we won't win until we've caught all of them. The more we allow to get away with it, the more difficult it will be for us to win down the track.

Instead of encouraging serial killers, we should carefully and deliberately choose one lynch today, choose useful investigative night actions, and use the information we have tomorrow to carefully and deliberately choose one outstanding lynch target.

This is better than choosing a bad lynch today, and having to lynch Deathnote tomorrow anyway, because he's still alive; and we have less information available from blood and insanity.