Mafia 101 - Mafia Dodgeball: GAME OVER

[Kmd4390]

Now remember the 5 D's of dodgeball. Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge.

/confirm

[Kmd4390]

Now remember the 5 D's of dodgeball. Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge.

/confirm

[Kmd4390]

I agree. Last night, I called it the funniest movie I have ever seen and spent about 5 or 10 minutes just talking about that one movie and how funny it was.

Plum, can we get Dodgeball quotes in the vote counts please?

Give me 30 seconds then send her in

[Kmd4390]

Vote CooLDog

This is not a random vote. I'm pretty sure he's scum.

[Kmd4390]

Sajin, what is your opinion of CooL?

[Kmd4390]

Hayker, I didn't FoS. I rarely do. I voted.

[Kmd4390]

It's the way he did it.

game start!!!!

A little too excited here. Newb scum tend to get nervous which appears excited.

Hmmm.. as the first RV (no pun please...)

More nervous signs. Trying to lighten the mood.

Who shall I vote for???

Acknowledging that he's been rambling, he realizes he needs to vote someone and finally takes a look at the player list.

Random vote: Ray frost

He's found his victim. And from CooL's behavior so far, I think Ray is town if CooL is scum.

for no reason what so ever.. they don't call it RVS for nuting lol .

Over-emphasizing the randomness of his vote.

On anther note I am very happy that this game got started! Wish all a good game and good luck.

More "excited" nervousness and rambling.

[Kmd4390]

Sajin, what is your opinion of CooL?

His method of random voting strikes me as inexperienced town or uncommital scum. I would say if he was town he would rather keep the people he has played with before around to be able to get better reads. Voting a player he has played with a lot before seems slightly scummy. His random vote is unlikely truly random.

I disagree with your reasoning, but agree with the conclusion. I don't think he's anywhere near looking to lynch Ray just yet. If he's played with him before, he's probably poking fun at someone who he knows. The person he chose to vote means next to nothing about his alignment though.

Leaning scum, but not as much as I really disliked what deathnote said.

About dodging votes? I don't see anything wrong with that. I'd love to be able to dodge votes as I'm sure anyone would.

@Tubby- What are your thoughts on deathnote and cooldog?

I was just about to ask this.

[Kmd4390]

Everyone:Please put a brief summary of you expierience in mafia, I will post mine later on in the day. currently I am at school and cannot comply with my own demands due to time constraints.

I've been playing almost non-stop since April '08. The longest I've been away from the game was the 5 days I spent in Myrtle Beach last spring. I usually play about 6-12 games at a time and keep up with all of them (disclaimer: I've had a lot of V/LA in the last couple months which has led to me not being able to post for up to 2 days at a time). See my wiki for more info.

What is your reason for asking this?

[Kmd4390]

milkshake, why isn't it fair to vote someone when they look like scum? He can defend himself just as well with some votes on him as he can without any votes.

[Kmd4390]

So he's town because he's new and insane?

[Kmd4390]

So he's town because he's new and insane?

I have no idea if he's town or not. :p

I think you do.

True. We've got plenty of time, and there is no reason to lynch someone after only a single post of their's. Of course, a vote for cooldog is just as good as any other vote at this stage of the game.

So why not jump on the wagon?

I still see no reason to defend myself since we are not even 24 hours into the game... And you can't expect me to answer any of your questions if this is my second post.

Ok, more CooL votes please.

Add "refuses to defend himself" and "appeal to game length" to my case.

-----------

Lowell, any thoughts?

[Kmd4390]

CooLDoG, here is my case against you:
1)Nervousness
-----excitedness
-----see "trying to lighten the mood" in my post
-----rambling
2)over-emphasizing how random your vote was
3)refusing to defend yourself when asked originally
------appeal to game length
------appeal to number of posts

[Kmd4390]

1) I was 3rd on the list I had weighted longer then you for this game to start.

*Checks signup thread for similarites*

Ok, excited point conceded.

1a)what is wrong with lighting the mood?

Common technique to calm nerves.

1b)what was so rambling about wishing all good luck?

Combined with the "who should I vote for" comment and telling us how happy you are with the game starting, it seems like more than you needed to say in a post where your sole purpose was to lay down a random vote.

2) I had spent a long time reading the wiki and actually tried out some of the math behind the voting.

What does that have to do with my point about your over-emphasis on your random vote?

3)you guys can't expect me to tell you anything over two posts honestly!
a)at page 3 common!

When there is a case, you can always defend. Like you just did. Also, you're appealing to page number now.

I disagree with Kmd's vote on CooLDoG and prefer this alternative:

Vote: Hayker

(L-10)

Why Hayker?

vote: CooLDoG

pure OMGUS, not really buying the KMD case.

So you are laying a random vote on the player who has the leading wagon on him right now?

I don't see how not answering in just one post is "not defending oneself," mind explaining how it is bad when one could answer it a couple posts down the line anyway?

He specifically said that he wasn't going to defend himself. That's a straight up refusal. Of course he has defended himself since then, but the original refusal is still noteworthy.

-------------

Oh yeah. Hey, Vi, I'm back to being me now. I have free time and stuff. I don't remember where (Death Note?), but you said something about me not playing like myself with all the V/LA. But I'm here to stay now (hopefully).

[Kmd4390]

btw kmd you are lookin mighty over eager right now. I mean seriously are you trying to channel your inner BM or something?

I like to be aggressive, especially early.

Thus a finger gets pointed at you.[/b]

Why just a finger and not a vote?

[Kmd4390]

Two other games as well, actually.
Remind me to say something on this subject later.

Yeah, figures. I'm back home in New York and only working one job now though, so it's all good.

Why Hayker?

Many cheesy fakeposts that aren't really redeemed by a relevant question about CooLDoG's experience.

Fair point, but why does this look more like scum than just inexperienced town?

More importantly, which finger is it?

I lol'd.

[Kmd4390]

Are you talking about New York the subforum or Noo Yawk the state?

Haha, the state. The accent doesn't extend out here though. Just the City. So it's New York, not "Noo Yawk".

Active lurking, hence "fakeposts". I believe that Hayker is spamming the thread in an attempt to seem pro-Town.

So you don't buy that Hayker didn't have time to go through past games?

[Kmd4390]

re Kmd: yup. not buying the case, but that hardly prevents me from keeping a remnant of the RVS in the OMGUS. Of course, I just remembered tubby also voted for me

unvote, Vote: Tubby

cuz he noted that I noted that we are in multiple ongoing games together (and cuz I luvs me the OMGUSoup).

So we aren't past random voting yet? Either you're scum or I fail...

I'm kind of apathetic about it tbh. (Whether he has that kind of time

right now

, per Hayker 47, is a different question.)
It doesn't directly seem to have anything to do with Hayker actually scumhunting, so whether he posts the list or not and when seems like a small point.

So it's the fact that he's asking for experience in the first place rather than using game events to scumhunt?

Oh, and my experience for those who don't know - I've been on the site substantially longer than Kmd.

Oh, 3 whole days. Don't be a VI.

Hayker's posts make almost no cense to me and it seems like he is just trying to make himself look good by actually posting when in fact he is "active" lurking. Also in his first post he made a very vague reference to there being to scum groups. I don’t like that very much.

^Just an "I agree" and weak accusation to follow. Just sayin'

i think kmd and Vi have the best read on me meta wise.

Meh, not sure I'd trust my meta on you. 2 games and both a while back.

In response to the remark saying that Cooldog is a better vote than most, I'll say that we're still in the RVS really, and that KMD is just trying to keep the game moving, get a quick (possibly mis) lynch. I'm not buying the argument and think he's just trying to bandwagon.

1)When did I ask for a quicklynch?
2)My 1st vote on the wagon is a bandwagon vote???

BTW kmd, you've got a weird avvie.

Thanks. Ether made it for me.

@KMD and Vi: I don't toss around votes too much. If I'm voting somone, it's a statement that I think they are scum, or I am in the RVS. On that note actually...

You don't have to be careful of voting. Just lynching.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd:

I got in late, so I wanted to get the RVS out of my system, plus... I haven't really had time to gather my thoughts. Too busy in another game.

Fair enough. I expect opinions later though.

[@RayFrost:]

Either you're scum or I fail...

Shouldn't this be the other way around?~

Um, why?

@the experience joke: I only bring that up because I already accidentally made that mistake in MD

Where was this? I don't remember seeing it.

I think you're wearing your avatar because you like it at this point

Actually, lack of avatar bets. I'm about to lose a baseball bet though.

So it's the fact that he's asking for experience in the first place rather than using game events to scumhunt?

Yes, noting that the part from "rather" on is important.

You make a good point here.

I do fully agree with your last sentence on a vote based on slight suspicion is better than a fully random vote.

This doesn't sound like it came from a town player who just said he's careful with his vote.

[Kmd4390]

I have a tendancy to start tunneling on someone if I vote them, and I consider tunneling to be anti-town. This is a behavior pattern I noticed in mafia 96, when I voted for roflcopter early on, and tunnel visioned him to whole game until he died. He was town sadly. I do not wish to repeat this mistake.

Your mistake wasn't voting. It was tunneling. Vote freely, but be open to the possibility that you are wrong. I personally could still use some work learning this. Don't let it affect your voting frequency though. If you don't vote, you appear to not have an opinion. Especially when I use my favorite tool to find scum later.

[Kmd4390]

Voting someone you suspect slightly beats not voting at all.

[Kmd4390]

However, the voting assisted in me tunneling. The more I voted for him, the more I believed my own case. I do not plan on making the mistake again.

So you should be more concerned with how you act regarding your vote than how you vote in the first place. Vote freely, suspect people all you want, just know that you could be wrong. Being wrong once doesn't mean you should be afraid to vote anyone.

Regarding the experience, I used to play here. But for some reasons, I had to quit it and then, when I wanted to return, I decided to make a new account.

Have I played with you before?

In response to the remark saying that Cooldog is a better vote than most, I'll say that we're still in the RVS really, and that KMD is just trying to keep the game moving, get a quick (possibly mis) lynch. I'm not buying the argument and think he's just trying to bandwagon.

1)When did I ask for a quicklynch?
2)My 1st vote on the wagon is a bandwagon vote???

So you're saying that when you accused Cool and kept on giving reason after reason you did not want other people to follow suit? In other words, the whole point of your vote was just so that you (uno, one vote) could vote for him? I'm not buying that.

No, I'm not saying that at all. But if CooL, for example, were at L-1 from the time I posted the case to the next time I came online, I'd have unvoted and taken a serious look at the wagon. So, yeah, a small wagon like we got is fine. But no, I didn't post that case hoping for a quicklynch.

You say that you didn't ask for a quicklynch, and that's true, but if you put constant pressure on somebody, and give what look like decent reasons, that's what you'll get. Somebody as experienced as you should know that.

No. It can lead to a lynch if the player still seems scummy after some questioning. I wouldn't let it get to a quicklynch unless something extreme (scum claim for example) happened.

And don't point at experience like that until you know what you're talking about.

As far as the bandwagon vote, it might not be voting for the sake of the bandwagon, but it is starting the bandwagon, which could be just as bad...

I don't see anything wrong with being the first vote on a bandwagon. All it means is that your case was good enough that people followed suit.

Let's see if I can understand the Bub wagon.

Bub seems to really want to extend the RVS

Fair reason for an early game vote.

Clinging to the RVS is never a good thing, especially when a case (albeit not that great in my opinion) is layed out.

Unvote
Vote: Bub

Maybe a little quick to hop on, but ok.

I..you can't be seriouslly....I mean. I can't even think of a logical response from how unbelievably illogical your response was.

vote:bub bidderskins

Not seeing the problem, but this is still a town reaction.

bub made an illogical counter to a valid point.

Also, his actions toward Kmd could be considered a chainsaw defense of cool, I think...

Got no better candidates, so:

unvote, Vote: Bub Bidderskins

Ok, this vote is coming from scum.

Oh, and milkshake. What flavour are you exactly?

Well, banana, isn't it clear?

I would like to remind you that I posted that a ways back. A long ways back as a matter of fact. Maybe you are the one clinging to the RVS.

This didn't make any sense. I think it is fair to say that nonsense is anti-town, and so I find Bob a very small bit (say, 5%) suspicious.

and that KMD is just trying to keep the game moving

He made this out as a reason that KMD is scum... but last I heard keeping the game moving was unequivocally pro-town!

So, since I think that one of the very few ways the town can actually get information on day 1 is to get someone to high votes (so that they might claim or do something else interesting), and since I think Bob's defense of himself would be interesting, I'll go ahead and add one

Vote: Bob Bidderskins

.

Re-state what everyone else has said, acknowledge that there's a wagon, and vote. Along with your reaction to the CooL vote I layed down, you are scum.

ah, I love an active mafia.

Bub is inconsistent and illogical and shows a haughty nature a lot of mafias tend to try to cover themselves with.

unvote, vote Bub

I love it when the mafia slips up.

Not seeing the slip. Not liking the vote. I doubt that Ray, milk, and Jordan are all scum who voted three in a row like that though. So one of you is probably town, which hurts to think about.

*sigh* you all want to know what I think of Bub? Ok, I know him in real life and he plays just the same in the game. He is an ass hole if you ever saw one, he is always raving on and on about how it's all about perspective. But he never seems to get my perspective on him. I do find some of his posts a little bit suspicious at least, so I might just go ahead and

vote: bub bidderskins

. The post about the rvs got to me. The game SB was talking about left the RVS after my first post, remember?

WTF. This is very interesting because none of the last FOUR VOTES now have looked like town votes at all.

Bub makes no sense to me. I don't want him in the game because of this.

Vote Bub

This is SSK regardless of alignment. Gonna say town just because I don't think he'd follow his buddies so blatantly.

So, you want him lynched just because you don't want him in the game? And that's enough reason? I'm sorry, I thought we were trying to hunt mafia, not players we don't like (not that Bub is not acting weird). And, talking about that, his case is getting stronger, and I'm finding him suspicious. And for that,

Vote: Bub

. His last vote against CD seemed more omgus than not, specially after Vi's quotes on 136. Clinging to reasons that can apply to himself is not a good thing.

Sounds like more reason for you to vote SSK than Bub, but I think you're town. And I think I know who you are.

Scum list coming in my next post so I don't accidently megapost (which this may have turned into. My bad if it did...)

[Kmd4390]

The scummiest scum:
RayFrost - "Random" voted on a player who already had a real case on him. Switched to another random vote when called on that. Bad vote on Bub. Sets himself up to vote either of the two leading wagons with his unvote and "can't decide" comment.
~Jordan` - You say you love an active game, yet you only have one post-RVS post. And it's one of the worst posts in the game.
CooLDoG -My initial vote was actually a "get things started" vote that I wasn't too sure of. I didn't like the reaction to it though.
tubby216-his response to Sajin's question was very.. not ready to start the game. Then he comes in to say he'd lynch either CooL or bub, the two main wagons. Very non-commital.

Maybe scum, but a second tier that's not as bad as the first and will probably list more town than the above list:
milkshake-I don't like either his defense of CooL or his vote on Bub.
Dramonic-Hmm. My gut said scum, but your posts in ISO look pretty townie..

Get in the game! I have no read:
Snow_Bunny -The no-red here is probably more my inability to read you than anything you are doing.
alvinz95 -Just a confirm and fluff post. Do something.
Lowell -Quickly jumped on CooL, then made a good theory point. Seems to be intentionally avoiding attention. If we have an SK or something, it's Lowell. This isn't his town game though, but it's not his scum game either...
Vaya -You confirmed, now play.

Probably town, but not as town as the list below this one:
Dry-fit -He was first to vote Bub. Decent reason to vote. Handled the fact that a wagon popped up exactly how I'd expect town to handle it.
Sajin-Mostly matching his town meta. I don't think I've seen him as scum though.
Vi-One of the most pro-town appearing players so far. Vi is a very good player though, so I'm cautious towards determining her alignment just yet.
MafiaSSK -He's making himself difficult to read. This is how I expect him to play though, and my gut says town.
imaginality-Pro-town early game. V/LA makes it harder to get any more than that.
manho-I had you in the "no read" category then viewed you in ISO. Looks good.

So obvtown that it's not even funny:
Hayker - Reminds me of Mafia 96, where I said the same thing. Also, the caution thing, while I disagree, sounds like a town thought process.
DeathNote -Was scum in Death Note mafia and didn't give quite as much of an opinion on anything.
Bub Bidderskins -The wagon is so scummy that he's town by default. Which is fine because that's the gut read I had on him anyway.
Kmd4390- This guy is helping the town so much right now that if he's scum, we're all in trouble anyway.

[Kmd4390]

FAIL. Forgot to:

Unvote, Vote Rayfrost

[Kmd4390]

And, KMD you forgot about a player named:manho. He has not posted much actually.

Probably town, but not as town as the list below this one:
manho-I had you in the "no read" category then viewed you in ISO. Looks good.

[Kmd4390]

I trust a gut read on Hayker more than I do on you. It's more a compliment than an insult.

I can maybe see your point on SSK. I don't consider that one of my strongest reads though.

Let's start a wagon on Ray and get that all the way to a lynch.

[Kmd4390]

It's the way he's being careful with his vote. He went after Rofl pretty hard in Mafia 96 and happened to be wrong. He comes here and is worried about being wrong again. No, it's not a good mentality, but it seems more town-motivated than scum-motivated.

So being nice actually

does

get me somewhere sometimes. Wish RL worked that way...

[Kmd4390]

I'm actually surrounded by rednecks. It's a long drive to the City.

[Kmd4390]

So Ray's defense is "uh-huh, good case"? Ok...

I'm sorry. I do love activity, but am finding it hard to pursue it myself. School is 8 hours a Day.

Pfffftttt. Thursday, I had classes from 1PM-3:30PM (with some time between admittedly) and then worked from 10:30PM to 7 AM, woke up and went straight to class, home for a couple hours then off to work for 10 hours and am here now. I've found plenty of time to post in the last few days. Lurk less.

Can you elaborate on your case?

See the post before the vote.

Stuff

How is the BB wagon a part of my list at all? He's one of my strongest town reads. Also, CooL might still be scum, but Ray is a more likely choice.

Kmd, I really don't think it's a good idea that you have posted your scum list. It is good to say who you believe it's scum. In the other hand, I don't believe it's wise to say you think it's town, specially if you call yourself "This guy is helping the town so much right now that if he's scum, we're all in trouble anyway" because that only gives mafia better targets for NK. I don't see that as pro-town, in fact, more like anti-town.

If the scum say "Well, Kmd thinks this guy is town, so let's kill that guy", then that's nothing more than an ego boost. Seriously, it doesn't hurt to give my opinions.

And, Kmd, I remember having played a game with you (Open 118). I remember your username (and tons of other players, like Vi).

I was right! Good to see you again.

[Kmd4390]

You didn't call it good or bad, but you called it valid, which is similar to "good".

Actually, the main thing I didn't like was what Snow pointed out. You didn't suspect CooL at first, but then said you couldn't decide which of CooL and Bub (leading wagons) was scummier. You basically set yourself up for either of the two lynches (assumes both CooL/Bub town) or let yourself say you suspected your scumbuddy, but thought the other player was scummier (assumes one of CooL/Bub scum and the other town).

Being late on the RVS wasn't a point against you. It was the fact that your supposedly random vote was placed on a player who was already being wagoned.

[Kmd4390]

eh, it was a random vote.

Also, I pointed out that he had made a vote for bub that was scummy, which caught my attention, since it was something that was rather blatantly desperate & scummy.

That made me go back over your case on him and his posts (mentally, not in actual reading) and see if I find him scummy. I did, and so I unvoted. It was late, so I decided to make the decision on who I found scummier after I had slept.

So you didn't buy the case, but thought about it (as the wagons both grew), decided to buy the case, and also suspect Bub?

I think you're completely missing the point Kmd. If scum knows your entire scum-reads, they know who they can build a case agaisnt without garnering too much suspicion from you.

Um. If someone is scummy, making a case against someone else who is scummy isn't going to clear them.

Are all your cases like that Kmd?

Like what? Based on the small details no one thinks to look at? Early in the game, yes.

I am not liking Kmd's excessive overeagerness one bit.

This town needs some balls. I decided to step up and be those balls. So if you are town, I am your balls. Don't talk to your balls that way!

Hay ker, anything to say?

I actually had to scroll up to see who "ker" was.

[Kmd4390]

Indeed, what I'm saying is that if they wagon someone who is scummy on your list they have less odds to garner your attention, if I'm not mistaken.

You're mistaken.

My balls are sure expressive lately then <_<

Thanks for the sig.

Kmd is very happy to be using his "power" to start bandwagons and loves it when people follow on said bandwagons... I guess that that is townish, but he does seem really happy about it,

Well, yeah. Anyone would be happy to have people listen to their ideas.

So if you are town, I am your balls. Don't talk to your balls that way!

Kmd4390- This guy is helping the town so much right now that if he's scum, we're all in trouble anyway.

which makes me think people should just be more wary of kmd.

What is your problem with these quotes? I'm not seeing it. Both of them were examples of me having fun. This

is

a game, right?

-----------------

I'm noticing that neither one of Ray/Tubby is very interested in defending themselves. CooL wasn't defending himself at first, but has now. This game is weird. Usually, at least someone who is widely suspected tries to defend themself. Not here apparently..

[Kmd4390]

Having fun is a scumtell?

[Kmd4390]

You lost me on why people "should be wary" of me then.

[Kmd4390]

Heh, I've been told that a lot. One time, I replaced into a game and called the guy I replaced 100% town. Then Drake called me scum. I think that was the first game I ever played with Vi.

[Kmd4390]

Alvinz needs to post more. I don't read him as scum though.

[Kmd4390]

Heh, I've been told that a lot. One time, I replaced into a game and called the guy I replaced 100% town. Then Drake called me scum. I think that was the first game I ever played with Vi.

Beware, I took the opportunity to get some kmd meta knowledge. All your secrets are now mine.

K, that's an old game though.

Vi, I've seen alvinz contribute more than this. Ok, he's never a key contributor, but he can do better than what he's done here.

Milk, I didn't take Tubby's daykill seriously. It was either a joke or Gambit. Not a real kill.

Manho, thoughts on Ray and Bub?

Jordan, you say you want to think productively instead of letting others do it, but all you've done is bandwagon. Why?

[Kmd4390]

Not impressed with Ray's LoS. Anyone wanna guess why?

[Kmd4390]

Not impressed with Ray's LoS. Anyone wanna guess why?

I haven't defended myself from your case? You are part of the "town" section? You disagree with my reads?

None of the above. Seriously, does no one see this?

[Kmd4390]

Ray, it's not the fact that you posted a LoS that is scummy, so don't act like it is.

Here's my problem with it.

Ray's scumlist: the players who have repeatedly been called scummy (and Lowell).

Ray's townlist: the most active players who haven't really been called scum at all. (and Dry-fit)

It's not a list of reads. It's a list of the general consensus in this game so far.

[Kmd4390]

re kmd:

Would you have preferred I went through, saw what everybody said, and just said something completely different, rather than what I honestly thought?

No, if you're town, I'd rather you think for yourself instead of summarizing what everyone has said all game.

[Kmd4390]

CooL, why did you list Tubby as a player who Ray is following? I haven't seen that TBH. (Note to self: possible CooL/Tubby connection)

Also, what do you think of Ray's suspicion of Lowell? (Note to self: possible Ray/Lowell connection)

Tubby, can you summarize your opinions on the game so far?

[Kmd4390]

But... Vi... the wagon needs you.

[Kmd4390]

Ray, "general consensus" is NOT an exact measurement and you know it. What I'm saying is that most of who everyone finds scummy, you find scummy. Most of the players who haven't really been called scummy, you list as town. Just because a few names (Lowell, Dry-fit) are moved around doesn't mean the rest isn't just a scummary of what everyone else has said.

[Kmd4390]

You ignored the bit about the order of my list.

I didn't ignore it, I just don't see how it changes things.

Even if "general consensus" puts people as scummy, that does not dictate how scummy "general consensus" finds each person individually, so to say I match the "general consensus" would require you to explain how I match "general consensus" on how scummy each player is, or your case on my matching "general consensus" is rather weak and reaching.

No. Wrong. Just. Stop talking. Well, don't because lurking is bad, but still.

You suspect the most widely suspected players. I don't care who you suspect

more

. I don't care

how much

you suspect anyone. The fact is you suspect all of the players who have been wagoned in this game.

I think you need to put a banana, ice cream, and milk into the same cup and blend it together. *has never worked fast food*

I've worked fast food. You put the cup in the holder and push the button and the shake pours into the cup.

...seriously? The major reason I'm leaning toward you-Town is because you-scum would have more sense than to cling to this kind of terrible argument.

Why is scum more likely to make a better argument than town?

[Kmd4390]

That seems like cheating...

Well you don't even want to

know

how to make McCafe products then...

...seriously? The major reason I'm leaning toward you-Town is because you-scum would have more sense than to cling to this kind of terrible argument.

Why is scum more likely to make a better argument than town?

Scum want to avoid being lynched.
Town more wants to be right.

So you can't have a good argument if you want to be right?

re kmd: so... I'm suspecting the suspicious people. Gee, that makes me obv. scum doesn't it.

If you go down that route (of finding suspecting the wagoned people scummy), CDG is doing the same (suspecting bub & me and just now starting to suspect milkshake

after Vi shows suspicions

), but his is just not as obvious is it?

Note: I bet you are going to say that's deflecting. Me saying it's not is probably just going to lead you to saying it is, and this note will make the repercussions worse, but I'm still putting it here.

Not everyone who is widely suspected actually

is

scum. (Maybe we are an awesome town and they are, but it's unlikely) You aren't even attempting to find who is and who isn't. You pretty much say "yeah, they're all scummy, but look. MY LIST IS IN ORDER!! HURHURHUR"

I agree about CooL. Well, unless you are scum because of the deflection. I don't think you'd deflect to your buddy. (yes, I'm going to say that. you agreeing doesn't make it less true)

------

I like that alvinz is making himself cool this game. And Jordan shows us how he can wagon again. SCUM.

[Kmd4390]

I'll post tomorrow. Far too tired to get through this thread.

[Kmd4390]

...seriously? The major reason I'm leaning toward you-Town is because you-scum would have more sense than to cling to this kind of terrible argument.

Why is scum more likely to make a better argument than town?

Scum want to avoid being lynched.
Town more wants to be right.

So you can't have a good argument if you want to be right?

Sometimes that's too much to ask

I'm actually talking about survival purposes when people start saying that your argument is garbage. I would expect scum to say "well okay maybesomethingelsegivemeamoment" while a Townsperson would be more likely to stick to it.

That depends on the player. Charter sure as hell isn't very willing to change his mind as scum.

Right now, I am going through an existential mafia-crisis: Is Day 1 is a necessary evil or is it all ultimately meaningless...

It's possibly the most meaningful part of the game.

-------------

Alvinz is town. So is Snow. Ray is still scum. Jordan is still scum.

[Kmd4390]

It's [Day 1 is] possibly the most meaningful part of the game.

I wish this were true but I have a lot of doubt about it. Especially with just basic roles, we have nothing to go on...

We have 24 pages worth of posts. How is that nothing to go on?

Maybe this is some great insight into kmd proschool mafia theory?

Ok. Let's go into theory mode:
Do NOT expect the nights to win games for towns. NEVER wait for a cop or some other investigative role to find scum for you. Be scumhunting in thread. If you can do this, the Day becomes more important than the night. You also improve your play as a vanilla because you aren't relying on other players. As soon as you've become a Daytime scumhunter, Day 1 becomes so much more important than later Days. Why is this? Because it's where all of your initial reads come from. Sure, some reads may change over time. Some may, and probably will, be wrong. But what you come up with on Day 1 shapes the ENTIRE game. Day 1 is very important and shouldn't be ignored.[/rant]

-----------------

Vi, I still don't understand your argument. You said Ray would make better arguments as scum. I want to know why you believe this. Your reasoning so far makes no sense.

My opinion on Milk? 4th scummiest player after Ray, Jordan, and Lowell (prob SK).

[Kmd4390]

Not that he would make better arguments as scum. That he would abandon ineffective arguments as scum.

It's not a strong tell and I'm not out to make the focus of my day defending le Ray of Frost (yes, I

can

see the wheels turning in your head about a Vi-RayFrost scumpair). I just think we're more likely to hit scum with milkshake and Snow_Bunny. Hence why I said we could drop this now; I had to reread to find out what we were arguing about in the first place.

Actually, I don't see you as scum at all right now. I just don't understand your argument. *shrug*

Fair warning - Lowell is playing more or less the way he usually does. At least alvinz is playing above expectations >_>

Why has CooLDoG dropped off the list?

I've seen Lowell contribute much more. CooL hasn't dropped off, just down. And I guess because other people have been scummier.

[Kmd4390]

VI

Daykill: CooLDoG

Further investigation along these lines goes into So Bad It's Good territory.

[Kmd4390]

I also noted, while reading milkshake in iso, that he keeps insisting that he is town. This reminds me signifigantly of Mastin's play is mafia 96. He also trys to keep the mood light by throwing in jokes whenever he can into his posts.

Wait, what? I think you have me confused with somebody else there because that's what

I

said!

having too much fun in that one particular way (joking about how pro-town you are) might be a bit suspicious.

There's a difference between "jokes" and "jokes about how protown you are". I don't think either of the two is scummy though.

CooL, why ask for a closer deadline rather than try to push the case on Ray a little harder?

[Kmd4390]

Vi, his scum game was much less involved than his play here.

[Kmd4390]

Ray, you make it sound like I don't want to lynch you anymore.

[Kmd4390]

Vi, fair point.

Ray, what more can I do? I layed out my case already.

[Kmd4390]

I've said my stuff already. I'm guessing you feel the same way.

Basically.

[Kmd4390]

Not liking manho's logic.

[Kmd4390]

Tell me if this is an appropriate description of RayFrost's most recent posts:
*OMG 24 hours to deadline
*VOTE someone who will not factor into the deadline lynch at all

Pretty much.

Oh, Zazie, too shy to post in this topic but still showing up elsewhere onsite~

And on AIM. Probably too far behind to be interested in catching up, but will do so another time. Not a tell either way for Zazie.

[Kmd4390]

after rereading ray, milkshake and SB, i found the 3 of them all quite scummy, and i'll support all 3 lynches if needed.

unvote, vote: milkshake

as he is the 2nd in the vote count.

tbh, i still think ray is not that scummy, but it is still better than a no-lynch.

Um, what?

[Kmd4390]

The scummiest scum:

RayFrost

- "Random" voted on a player who already had a real case on him. Switched to another random vote when called on that. Bad vote on Bub. Sets himself up to vote either of the two leading wagons with his unvote and "can't decide" comment.

~Jordan`

- You say you love an active game, yet you only have one post-RVS post. And it's one of the worst posts in the game.

CooLDoG

-My initial vote was actually a "get things started" vote that I wasn't too sure of. I didn't like the reaction to it though.

tubby216

-his response to Sajin's question was very.. not ready to start the game. Then he comes in to say he'd lynch either CooL or bub, the two main wagons. Very non-commital.

Maybe scum, but a second tier that's not as bad as the first and will probably list more town than the above list:

milkshake

-I don't like either his defense of CooL or his vote on Bub.

Dramonic

-Hmm. My gut said scum, but your posts in ISO look pretty townie..

Get in the game! I have no read:

Snow_Bunny

-The no-read here is probably more my inability to read you than anything you are doing.

alvinz95

-Just a confirm and fluff post. Do something.

Lowell

-Quickly jumped on CooL, then made a good theory point. Seems to be intentionally avoiding attention. If we have an SK or something, it's Lowell. This isn't his town game though, but it's not his scum game either...

Vaya

-You confirmed, now play.

Probably town, but not as town as the list below this one:

Dry-fit

-He was first to vote Bub. Decent reason to vote. Handled the fact that a wagon popped up exactly how I'd expect town to handle it.

Sajin

-Mostly matching his town meta. I don't think I've seen him as scum though.

Vi

-One of the most pro-town appearing players so far. Vi is a very good player though, so I'm cautious towards determining her alignment just yet.

MafiaSSK

-He's making himself difficult to read. This is how I expect him to play though, and my gut says town.

imaginality

-Pro-town early game. V/LA makes it harder to get any more than that.

manho

-I had you in the "no read" category then viewed you in ISO. Looks good.

So obvtown that it's not even funny:

Hayker

- Reminds me of Mafia 96, where I said the same thing. Also, the caution thing, while I disagree, sounds like a town thought process.

DeathNote

-Was scum in Death Note mafia and didn't give quite as much of an opinion on anything.

Bub Bidderskins

-The wagon is so scummy that he's town by default. Which is fine because that's the gut read I had on him anyway.

Kmd4390

- This guy is helping the town so much right now that if he's scum, we're all in trouble anyway.

Actual alignments shown by color.

Looks like I did ok here. Misread Ray pretty badly. Mistook Tubby's laziness as scuminess. But I nailed 2 scum in my top scum list.

Second list, good thing I went with my gut. Should have pushed that a little harder though.

No read had 50% town and 50% scum. Funny.

Of my town reads, I only misread two of the ten I listed and one of those two was SK. Not bad.

I'm actually pretty happy with my reads this game.

[Kmd4390]

Actually, yeah, that's the entire reason you were "so obvtown it's not even funny". You weren't playing to DeathNotes scum meta at all.