Mini 848 - Second String Muppets Mafia - Game Over.

[Eldritch Lord]

2. You are defending Jordan, no matter how you put it. The fact that you deny it just makes it clearer that there is a connection you don't want seen.
3. Jordan seemed to shut up after you stated that he made a newb mistake, experienced scum hushing up the less experienced? Could be.

Answer me this; Who do you think are Monkey's scum buddies at this point? Do you think Jordan could be scum?

Two of your logic points are based on his defense of Jordan, Snix. Without that, your case against Ecto comes down to gut feeling.

[Snix]

Wherein has Ecto been grasping at straws? You certainly haven't provided examples as yet.

Alright, let me put it another way: Neither of the sides had much validity, not Monkey's wagon nor Jordan's. I jumped on Ecto because his turn around on Monkey seemed spastic and uncalled for. Had I started reading earlier in the day I would have gone after someone else who was on the Jordan wagon. Neither had footing.

What is the purpose of the scumbuddy question at this point? Who couldn't be Monkey's scumbuddy right now? For that matter, the same is true of Jordan and Ecto. Making any sort of argument based on scumbuddies right now is awful.

Ecto was gunning for Monkey and I wanted to know what he expected of day 2 if Monkey's wagon went through.

I don't understand this. How would Jordan have passed under your radar, given that he was the big wagon? How does me and Ecto going after Monkey say

anything

with respect to Jordan? I can't make sense of your second sentence here at all.

I didn't see the sense in his wagon as I stated above. I didn't think he was scum then and

again

still don't, just a newb.

Again, without confirmed scum or confirmed town, I have a hard time seeing how someone's actions can make another person look scummy.

Which is why I'm not voting Jordan. I don't think you guys listen very well.

Your question was "Jordan seemed to shut up after you stated that he made a newb mistake, experienced scum hushing up the less experienced?" I'm not sure what you were expecting Ecto to say here. That is, how else can someone answer that other than with a yes or a no? Seriously loaded question.

I wasn't looking for a yes or a no in particular, just a real response.

[/u]

[Snix]

2. You are defending Jordan, no matter how you put it. The fact that you deny it just makes it clearer that there is a connection you don't want seen.
3. Jordan seemed to shut up after you stated that he made a newb mistake, experienced scum hushing up the less experienced? Could be.

Answer me this; Who do you think are Monkey's scum buddies at this point? Do you think Jordan could be scum?

Two of your logic points are based on his defense of Jordan, Snix. Without that, your case against Ecto comes down to gut feeling.

Not points of logic, just observations I wanted responses to.

[Eldritch Lord]

Now as for my strong logic:

...

2. You are defending Jordan, no matter how you put it. The fact that you deny it just makes it clearer that there is a connection you don't want seen.
3. Jordan seemed to shut up after you stated that he made a newb mistake, experienced scum hushing up the less experienced? Could be.

Semantics, it was your word choice.

It still doesn't really absolve the fact that two of your three given reasons for being on the Ecto wagon have to do with defending Jordan. If you think Jordan isn't scum then these points are moot and you have absolutely nothing against Ecto, if you do then my formal logic applies.

As far as the quick turnaround on Monkey goes, what exactly about it made it seem spastic?

[MacavityLock]

Wherein has Ecto been grasping at straws? You certainly haven't provided examples as yet.

Alright, let me put it another way: Neither of the sides had much validity, not Monkey's wagon nor Jordan's. I jumped on Ecto because his turn around on Monkey seemed spastic and uncalled for. Had I started reading earlier in the day I would have gone after someone else who was on the Jordan wagon. Neither had footing.

That's no better of a way of putting it, that's just as vague. Why is there no validity?

I don't understand this. How would Jordan have passed under your radar, given that he was the big wagon? How does me and Ecto going after Monkey say

anything

with respect to Jordan? I can't make sense of your second sentence here at all.

I didn't see the sense in his wagon as I stated above. I didn't think he was scum then and

again

still don't, just a newb.

So can you unpack the bit I quoted? It still doesn't make sense.

Again, without confirmed scum or confirmed town, I have a hard time seeing how someone's actions can make another person look scummy.

Which is why I'm not voting Jordan. I don't think you guys listen very well.

But why are you made more suspicious of Jordan for it? Voting for him or not, you've said that Ecto's actions have somehow made Jordan more suspicious to you.

Ecto has my vote because Ecto seems scummy, Jordan seems scummy through Ecto's actions.

Or am I reading that wrong?

Your question was "Jordan seemed to shut up after you stated that he made a newb mistake, experienced scum hushing up the less experienced?" I'm not sure what you were expecting Ecto to say here. That is, how else can someone answer that other than with a yes or a no? Seriously loaded question.

I wasn't looking for a yes or a no in particular, just a real response

What would a "real response" to that question be?

[Ectomancer]

If Ecto comes up town I wont believe Jordan is scum at this point.

Why exactly would you do that? I've not seen anything Jordan has done to appear town today, and if I don't turn up Mason, how the hell would me being town clear Jordan? The primary method I have of determining that is if Monkey shows up as scum, because I really doubt he would be prodding at a 'softclaim' of a scum buddy.
You really need to keep your scumdar up and

actually pay attention when I say that an attack on Monkey's attack is not a defense of his target!

[Snix]

You seem to not understand, I didn't vote Ecto because he defended Jordan. I voted ecto because he denied it.

I didn't vote Ecto because of point 3 either, it was merely something I wanted a response to.

as far as the

quick

turnaround on monkey goes, it was quick... ie spastic. Although more so on ML's part than ecto. Ecto just seemed to be leading it.

[MacavityLock]

as far as the

quick

turnaround on monkey goes, it was quick... ie spastic. Although more so on ML's part than ecto. Ecto just seemed to be leading it.

Huh? I don't understand this either. Monkey did the first thing in this game that I considered legitimately scummy, as described in my post 50. What was quick or spastic about that?

[Snix]

If Ecto comes up town I wont believe Jordan is scum at this point.

Why exactly would you do that? I've not seen anything Jordan has done to appear town today, and if I don't turn up Mason, how the hell would me being town clear Jordan? The primary method I have of determining that is if Monkey shows up as scum, because I really doubt he would be prodding at a 'softclaim' of a scum buddy.
You really need to keep your scumdar up and

actually pay attention when I say that an attack on Monkey's attack is not a defense of his target!

As to the defense part I already agreed with you on that here:

2. Fair point

(that was in post 115)
The rest of town keep bringing it up and I have to explain my reasoning when I said it.

But Jordan hasn't really done anything that's scummy either, at least not in my eyes. [/quote]

[Eldritch Lord]

Snix, you have to understand that, in this case, that distinction is irrelevant.

The only way his denying a connection could incriminate him is if Jordan is scum and he knows it. Denying this connection as town would just be a safe move as he wouldn't know Jordan's alignment, so his denial of the fact has no actual value. This is why I'm not on his wagon.

I mean, let's say Jordan is a newb like you think he is, how does Ecto defending him and then denying it make Ecto scummy? And how does Ecto coming up town absolve Jordan at all?

Logic suggests that your chance of lynching scum based on the only reasoning you have given for suspecting Ecto is 25% greater if you vote for Jordan.

If Ecto came up town,

it in absolutely no way absolves Jordan of being scum

, nor can I see anything that could cause the inference that Jordan is more likely to be town. The fact that you seem to be missing this could be the reason behind your decision not to vote for Jordan over Ecto. If Ecto comes up town, given the only reasoning you've posted, Jordan is still ambiguous in his role whereas,

following your posted reasoning, if Jordan comes up town, it frees Ectomancer from the guilt associated with "allying" with scum, especially in the scenario that one is suspicious of his denial

.

[Eldritch Lord]

Just to clarify for you Snix, since you seem to think that my point is that you are saying both Jordan and Ecto are scum.

That is

not

my point, my point is that given your reasoning, you

must

make that assumption in order for it to make sense. If you don't then, regardless of denial of the fact, Ecto's defending Jordan

cannot

, in any way, incriminate him.

[Snix]

Wherein has Ecto been grasping at straws? You certainly haven't provided examples as yet.

Alright, let me put it another way: Neither of the sides had much validity, not Monkey's wagon nor Jordan's. I jumped on Ecto because his turn around on Monkey seemed spastic and uncalled for. Had I started reading earlier in the day I would have gone after someone else who was on the Jordan wagon. Neither had footing.

That's no better of a way of putting it, that's just as vague. Why is there no validity?

I don't understand this. How would Jordan have passed under your radar, given that he was the big wagon? How does me and Ecto going after Monkey say

anything

with respect to Jordan? I can't make sense of your second sentence here at all.

I didn't see the sense in his wagon as I stated above. I didn't think he was scum then and

again

still don't, just a newb.

So can you unpack the bit I quoted? It still doesn't make sense.

Again, without confirmed scum or confirmed town, I have a hard time seeing how someone's actions can make another person look scummy.

Which is why I'm not voting Jordan. I don't think you guys listen very well.

But why are you made more suspicious of Jordan for it? Voting for him or not, you've said that Ecto's actions have somehow made Jordan more suspicious to you.

Ecto has my vote because Ecto seems scummy, Jordan seems scummy through Ecto's actions.

Or am I reading that wrong?

Your question was "Jordan seemed to shut up after you stated that he made a newb mistake, experienced scum hushing up the less experienced?" I'm not sure what you were expecting Ecto to say here. That is, how else can someone answer that other than with a yes or a no? Seriously loaded question.

I wasn't looking for a yes or a no in particular, just a real response

What would a "real response" to that question be?

1. I don't know how else to put it. I'm not on Jordan's wagon because It doesn't seem founded and I'm not on Monkey's for the same reason. I'm a gut player, if that helps you understand. I read things and get a gut feeling and neither wagon has a "this guy is scum" feeling

2. I was basically saying I don't see monkey pointing out the OMGUS as scummy and you jumped on it like crazy..

3. in my eyes IFF ecto turns up scum today, then Jordan is scum.

4. Anything other than "that's not how I see it" Citing examples where I'm wrong would be one. Saying that's not really a connection could be another. Anything.

[Eldritch Lord]

1. This is not good, gut feelings are not on par with good logic.
2. Agreed, the jump was a little quick. Making note of this.
3. This is a possibility, but if he doesn't Jordan is still grey. Lynching Jordan is a better choice.
4. It was a loaded question with no possibility for substantial response. Don't pretend it wasn't.

[Snix]

1. This is not good, gut feelings are not on par with good logic.
2. Agreed, the jump was a little quick. Making note of this.
3. This is a possibility, but if he doesn't Jordan is still grey. Lynching Jordan is a better choice.
4. It was a loaded question with no possibility for substantial response. Don't pretend it wasn't.

1. It's how I play. And it's done me ok
3. Maybe statistically
4. Are you telling me you could not come up with a response to that?

[Eldritch Lord]

1. Fair enough. It's still not the most beneficial style in terms of the town.
3. That should be all that matters when you have this little to go on.
4. Not one that would provoke any meaningful discussion or give any decent evidence as to my alignment

Your reasoning, at this point, simply does not make sense in any scenario other than both players being scum. It is my suggestion that you consolidate on Jordan, should you choose one, however I still feel Monkey is the best choice for D1 at this point.

Regardless, Ecto/

Jordan

/Monkey are all lynches I would be okay with if we were to hit the deadline right now seeing how as none of the cases are particularly strong. Still, given the choice I'd take Monkey over Jordan over Ecto.

[Ectomancer]

That is

not

my point, my point is that given your reasoning, you

must

make that assumption in order for it to make sense. If you don't then, regardless of denial of the fact, Ecto's defending Jordan

cannot

, in any way, incriminate him.

In the framework of his argument, I think you are correct, but in general you are not. I've already said that I've seen Jordan posting in MD prior to this game (didnt I?), so once I saw him here, I could have quickly identified him as easily manipulatable and be using a passive defense to bias his emotions favorably towards me. It wouldn't be hard to do and he would of course be the townie that I would attempt to bring along into endgame with me so long as he isn't some annoying role.

So there is a potential scum motivation, but contrary to what is being asserted, it would be more likely to clear Jordan as town than implicate him as a scumbuddy were there to be an Ectoscum. (No, I'm not scum) Annoying to have to make good arguments for people because they can't do it themselves

[Eldritch Lord]

Looking for some input from players who haven't posted in a while. It seems like Snix, Ecto, Monkey, Macavaty, and I have been carrying the discussion tonight.

[Eldritch Lord]

Ectomancer, that seems like a great deal of inference for an outside player to make. It also seems like there are too many variables associated with predicting the behavioral patterns of an individual based on one forum experience for that to be a likely strategy from the beginning. I think that's a far reach at the very least.

[MonkeyMan576]

1. Fair enough. It's still not the most beneficial style in terms of the town.
3. That should be all that matters when you have this little to go on.
4. Not one that would provoke any meaningful discussion or give any decent evidence as to my alignment

Your reasoning, at this point, simply does not make sense in any scenario other than both players being scum. It is my suggestion that you consolidate on Jordan, should you choose one, however I still feel Monkey is the best choice for D1 at this point.

Regardless, Ecto/

Jordan

/Monkey are all lynches I would be okay with if we were to hit the deadline right now seeing how as none of the cases are particularly strong. Still, given the choice I'd take Monkey over Jordan over Ecto.

If you don't think the cases are very strong, why don't you try to find your own scum, rather than lynch those that are willing to put themselves on a limb trying?

[ekiM]

I should have said earlier---saying that L-2 is a good place to ask for a roleclaim is anti-town. A claim should be requested when someone is ready to drop the hammer. Forcing claims too early helps scum.

I think I've presented a fairly strong case. It may not have been strong in the beginning, but I think their behavior since then has reinforced my case.

This is a real gem. You admit your case isn't strong, and assert anyway that Ecto and Jordan just must be buddies; after all, why would a townie disagree with a weak case like that? That's an... interesting... thought process to go through.

I didn't say my case wasn't strong, I said it wasn't strong in the beginning. The more I heard from the two, the more it reinforced my case.

You admit that your initial case was weak, but in the same breath argue that Ecto disagreeing with that case makes him scum with Jordan. Why wouldn't a townie disagree with a weak case?

That's not what I'm doing at all. What's with all the psychoanalyzing? I have actual semi-hard evidence of a connection between two players and people are coming up with all this fluff stuff.

You're using "psychoanalyzing" as a synonym for "trying to discern the motivations of", which is the essence of the game of Mafia. It's not a valid reason to dismiss an argument.

Wherein has Ecto been grasping at straws? You certainly haven't provided examples as yet.

Alright, let me put it another way:

Actually, I'd prefer if you answered the question. I think pretty much every point Ecto has raised has been worth consideration, apart from the thing about posting as an alt. If you disagree then please give some examples of him grasping at straws.

Your question was "Jordan seemed to shut up after you stated that he made a newb mistake, experienced scum hushing up the less experienced?" I'm not sure what you were expecting Ecto to say here. That is, how else can someone answer that other than with a yes or a no? Seriously loaded question.

I wasn't looking for a yes or a no in particular, just a real response.

Please give an example of a response you would expect a townie to give to that horribly loaded question.

as far as the quick turnaround on monkey goes, it was quick... ie spastic. Although more so on ML's part than ecto. Ecto just seemed to be leading it.

What does this mean and what does it tell you about alignments?

[Eldritch Lord]

If you don't think the cases are very strong, why don't you try to find your own scum, rather than lynch those that are willing to put themselves on a limb trying?

Because in relation to anything I've been able to build myself, your case looks very powerful indeed.

If I have a case against someone, I will say so.

[Ectomancer]

If you don't think the cases are very strong, why don't you try to find your own scum, rather than lynch those that are willing to put themselves on a limb trying?

Because in relation to anything I've been able to build myself, your case looks very powerful indeed.

If I have a case against someone, I will say so.

Well I tend to agree with Monkey's thought here (even if likely self-serving). A strong case is great, but it doesn't erase even weak ones. Adel likes to have at least 2 competing wagons each day, and I don't think that is a bad idea. Monkey's is good, Jordan's is a non-starter, and mine has votes but no actual case (yes I realize I'm being dismissive).
I'd like to see what else you have, even if weaker in comparison.

[Eldritch Lord]

I would prefer not to allow deflection to occur. The focus should be on Monkey, Jordan, and yourself for the moment. After both parties (Jordan-Ecto VS. Monkey) feel they've exhausted the other and are satisfied with the limit of the debate would be the ideal time for me to post my own cases.

FoS: Ecto

For attempting to use a scummy person's reasoning to deflect.

That said, my personal impressions are incoming, probably early this afternoon.

[Ectomancer]

Listen to what you're saying there honcho.

After both parties (Jordan-Ecto VS. Monkey) feel they've exhausted the other and are satisfied with the limit of the debate would be the ideal time for me to post my own cases.

I believe that Monkey and myself

are

the parties involved and

we

are asking you for your other cases. I really don't think that you want to attempt to argue that we

haven't

exhausted the argument.

[Malcolm]

My apologies for not posting. Had a major project to do, and then decided to spend my free time at $1 pitcher night. I'll be giving this thread a thorough read and posting later tonight.