Mini 848 - Second String Muppets Mafia - Game Over.

[elvis_knits]

Also, just something I'm thinking about since I have fed into this a little with speculating buddies:

I think we shouldn't get TOO carried away with "ties." It's good to look for connections between players, and good to put your suspicions down. But it's mostly only useful for later, after we have lynched scum. It should not be used as real evidence against a person. I'm okay with it being supporting evidence. In my experience talking about potential ties can get very confusing and can make it easier for scum to manipulate us. (Think of monkey tyring to use ecto/jordan's agreement that he is scum as evidence that they are scum buddies. That type of argument should never fly).

We should be more concerned with lynching the scummiest person, plain and simple. Then, after we hit scum, we go back to the suspicions of who could be tied to who. So, yes, talk about it, say who you think is paired with who if you notice something, but let's try not to get bogged down in it, or let ties make too much of an influence of who we lynch. I've just seen that be manipulated too much in the past.

[Zorblag]

Vote Count 1.5

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

MonkeyMan576: 5: MacavityLock (7), Ectomancer (9), ekiM (12), Kirbyoshi (14), Debonair Danny DiPietro (15)
~Jordan`: 2: springlullaby (2), Malcolm (6)
Debonair Danny DiPietro: 2: Snix (16), Eldritch Lord (17)
Eldritch Lord: 1: MonkeyMan576 (18)

Not Voting: elvis_knits, ~Jordan`

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Currently MonkeyMan576 would be lynched at deadline. Deadline is 1:00 PM EDT/10 AM PDT on Wednesday, October 7th 2009.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Mod Note: Prodding springlullaby

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Eldritch Lord]

Point noted, I suppose I was being a bit hypocritical. I don't really have a point of defense for the argument that "Well maybe you just didn't want the net of suspicion widened to include yourself," as hypocrisy is really just second nature to me, it comes with arrogance.

Still, it is a weak WIFOMish point. I come in out of nowhere and tell everyone to stay focused on Ecto/Jordan/Monkey, I think its a nulltell because it could be argued that it would've been more beneficial for me to just stay out of it. The fact that I said something about it at a time I was having no special interest shown to me would be dumb, etc WIFOM.

I think if Monkey is scum, we should take a look at DDD and Kirby for possible bussing. Saying this puts myself in a precarious position, as I have no reservations right now about switching back to Monkey if town thinks thats a better lynch. I know I don't have the best logic in this game, so I'm trying to identify people who strike me as fairly thoroughly town so I can offer a unique perspective through which they can case build better.

Though I haven't directly built any cases, I spent a good part of the Ecto/Jordan/Monkey debate fishing for things from Monkey and Snix so that others could build their cases. I didn't give up on Snix until he gave me exactly what I wanted to hear, that he plays by gut. I didn't give up on Monkey until he had slipped and dodged enough for him to be highlighted as very possible scum in my eyes.

However, it seems as though everyone would rather hear a roleclaim from Monkey, so lets hear it.

Unvote

Vote: MonkeyMan576

Criticizing me for putting DDD under suspicion puts you in an interesting position now Ecto, do you intend to derail your wagon that you seem to feel so sure about in order to prevent a roleclaim from Monkey? Does my waffling on the situation make me look like a busser? I especially want to hear from you on this, Elvis.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm not dodging anything. I'm willing to answer any questions. I also think looking for obvious connections between two players is a valid form of scum hunting.

[Eldritch Lord]

I think you said this would be an appropriate time to claim.

[elvis_knits]

Point noted, I suppose I was being a bit hypocritical. I don't really have a point of defense for the argument that "Well maybe you just didn't want the net of suspicion widened to include yourself," as hypocrisy is really just second nature to me, it comes with arrogance.

lol

Still, it is a weak WIFOMish point. I come in out of nowhere and tell everyone to stay focused on Ecto/Jordan/Monkey, I think its a nulltell because it could be argued that it would've been more beneficial for me to just stay out of it. The fact that I said something about it at a time I was having no special interest shown to me would be dumb, etc WIFOM.

My point is not WIFOM. My point is that when people wanted to widen the net of suspicion to include you, you suggested we stay on the three others. Later, you widened the net when the suspect was not you. None of that is WIFOM. Your motivations for doing it maybe WIFOM, but the point remains. It is a series of events and there is no WIFOM there.

I think if Monkey is scum, we should take a look at DDD and Kirby for possible bussing. Saying this puts myself in a precarious position, as I have no reservations right now about switching back to Monkey if town thinks thats a better lynch. I know I don't have the best logic in this game, so I'm trying to identify people who strike me as fairly thoroughly town so I can offer a unique perspective through which they can case build better.

Okay so which "fairly thoroughly town" people were you trying to help? Because it looked to me that you were trying to help ecto for a long time there and he's on your list of acceptable lynches. So is he town or is he an acceptable lynch?

Though I haven't directly built any cases, I spent a good part of the Ecto/Jordan/Monkey debate fishing for things from Monkey and Snix so that others could build their cases. I didn't give up on Snix until he gave me exactly what I wanted to hear, that he plays by gut. I didn't give up on Monkey until he had slipped and dodged enough for him to be highlighted as very possible scum in my eyes.

Okay so you were trying to help monkey build his case? But didn't you replace into the game and vote monkey? I thought you were basically trying to help ecto question/attack monkey for the most part there. Now you're saying you wanted to help monkey until it was apparent he was scummy?

And I have no idea why a person would try to help people build cases when they thought the cases were weak. Unless you're scum trying to exploit weak cases.

I would like to hear from you exactly what the case on monkey is, in your opinion. I would like to know what arguments/posts you don't like. I want to hear more than "monkey is slipping and dodging."

However, it seems as though everyone would rather hear a roleclaim from Monkey, so lets hear it.

Unvote

Vote: MonkeyMan576

Criticizing me for putting DDD under suspicion puts you in an interesting position now Ecto, do you intend to derail your wagon that you seem to feel so sure about in order to prevent a roleclaim from Monkey? Does my waffling on the situation make me look like a busser? I especially want to hear from you on this, Elvis.

Monkey should probably claim. He's been scummy, I've explained why I think so.

However, EL, I haven't seen a lot of straight forward explanations from you. A few times, I have thought you were leaning one way, but then you come and say you felt totally differently (like with questioning snix, or voting monkeyman and imo helping ecto question monkey and now saying you were helping monkey). It's like you are leaving things purposely open-ended so that you can switch your opinion later if you need to.

I think you should explain why you think monkey is scummy, otherwise I will assume you voted him because I criticised you for voting DDD.

[MonkeySudo]

Well, I disagree that I've been scummy, but I'm a

vanilla townie

.

[MonkeyMan576]

Sorry, alt.

[elvis_knits]

But which muppet are you?

[MonkeyMan576]

Link Hogthrob

[Kirbyoshi]

EL, I just iso'ed you, and found out your vote on "King" DDD didn't last long AT ALL. While I don't agree with the case on Danny, I think that if you think he's scummy, you should vote him, and stick with your vote. That is, if you want to play townily =/

FoS: Eldritch Lord

My vote stays.

[springlullaby]

sorry unplanned long week end (i'm unreliable on w-e as a rule though)

catching up now

[elvis_knits]

Well, as a rule, vanilla claims shouldn't save a person from lynch.

But I would like to discuss a bit more with EL, and have some more participation from quieter people before we decide on a lynch. I'd also like the chance to say more since so much happened in a few days that I didn't participate in.

[Ectomancer]

Well as a rule I would usually agree with you. I believe that is if you depend solely upon the claim to save the lynch. When you have competing wagons that may in fact be a better lynch come to the fore while pressuring for the claim I think that it could be prudent to weigh our options.
I'm wrapped up in one case strongly, so I always have to account for some bit of negative bias, a lack of objectivity when I gauge the possibility of being right.

Spring is a good mediator. I've played with her before, and she has good judgment. (last game named all 3 scum including myself)
We evidently all consider her to be neutral, or in my case slight town as evidenced by her not being in consideration at all for lynch.

I'm going to

unvote

and back us down from L-1 and listen to what Spring has to say. I already know who I would lynch and Monkey is just one of the available options.

[~Jordan`]

Well, as a rule, vanilla claims shouldn't save a person from lynch.

But I would like to discuss a bit more with EL, and have some more participation from quieter people before we decide on a lynch. I'd also like the chance to say more since so much happened in a few days that I didn't participate in.

this.

Mr. Monkeyman's role claim detriments the town. No one shuld claim vanilla. Its the same as saying "I'm townie". I assume monkeyman should know this, as he is no noob, especially if he's been (planning to) modd a game.

vote monkeyman

[elvis_knits]

Jordan, last page you wrote this:

Hello sorry, saw 9 pages and didnt look forard to reread.

I am insulted at being called a rookie, even if it wasnt meant that way. I know mafia. I am no noob/rookie.

I don't know ecto, but I'm guessing he's defending me solely b/c he knows im right.

Also, as said b4, luckiness has nothing to do w/ this game. I am neither scum nor vanilla.

I don't like Monkey being suspicious of me, but I must say he looks like townie.

unvote

I believe Ecto and Monkey are on the same (townie) side. But ofc, more so Ecto than monkey.

I'll need to reread again to make sure of something before I make a vote.

What changed your mind about Monkey being townie?

[ekiM]

Hi all, sorry for not getting on over the weekend. I will try to catch up this evening.

[MonkeyMan576]

@Jordan: No one should claim vanilla? What if they ARE vanilla? They should lie?

[Ectomancer]

He's subscribing to the "I Agree" portion of this poll. The problem with these polls is they ask these questions in a fishbowl. This is the Ocean and there is more to consider when deciding upon a lynch than their claim. Like the state of the rest of the game for instance.

viewtopic.php?t=2872&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

[MonkeyMan576]

He's subscribing to the "I Agree" portion of this poll. The problem with these polls is they ask these questions in a fishbowl. This is the Ocean and there is more to consider when deciding upon a lynch than their claim. Like the state of the rest of the game for instance.

viewtopic.php?t=2872&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

Well, refusing to claim when asked is usually scummy, and lying as town is definately scummy-looking. My best chance to survive the day as vanilla is to claim vanilla. At least this gives the town the chance to find actual scum. According to Jordan, it would seem, he would favor lynching a vanilla townie than look for scum in this instance.

[MacavityLock]

Need to catch up after a busy weekend. I don't see a problem with a vanilla roleclaim. It doesn't make me want to shift the wagon at the moment, but it doesn't make me think he's any

more

likely to be scum.

[Ectomancer]

I agree with you. If you are vanilla, dont be pulling a bs claim to be countered. I also know of occasions where I wouldn't divulge my true role even on pain of lynch. This idea that

nobody

should claim vanilla, including vanilla is ridiculous in my estimation.

[elvis_knits]

If it's a straight vanilla claim (no character) I think it's often better to force the town to lynch you without a claim. But I wouldn't expect everyone to know that or agree. And I definitely don't think anyone should lie.

The character gives us a bit more to work with. Link Hogthrob seems like a character that would believably be in the game. Not first string, but not unknown either.

Basically, I think monkey is still a good lynch because the claim doesn't do anything to wipe out the earlier reasons for lynching him. A claim is really designed to stop the town from lynching power roles, and since monkey hasn't claimed a power role, the claim should not stop the lynch.

But I think the last two votes on him, EL and jordan, were made under fishy circumstances. That's really the only thing that makes me want to discuss things further.

I want to atleast see what EL has to say in response to my last post about him

[MonkeyMan576]

My claim shouldn't save me from a lynch, but the fact that any allegations against me are either untrue or exaggerated should.