Mini 848 - Second String Muppets Mafia - Game Over.

[~Jordan`]

@charter: I'm not generally one to bite the hand that feeds me, but first you say I'm obvtown, and then you say all vanilla claims should be lynched. Which is it?

if charter says that, I disagree. Monkey seems to focus on defending himself and attacking those who attack him, but his insistence makes me think he's town...for now.

unvote

Hm...I need to look into the suspicions on Kirby. I FoSed him before, but that was a while ago. I need to make sure.

But I don't really see all this buddying people keep talking about. Is not buddying kissing up to town so they wont suspect you? Wouldn't that, in truth, mean that one is mafia and the other is townie? I don't see the mafia buddying up with other mafia. They tend to distance, do they not?

And my bad luck. Seriously. Its pre-game spam. Don't get crazy about it assuming things. I would say "being scum is funner for me", but thats opinoin that can easilt be disbelieved.

[Kirbyoshi]

Hang on, I just noticed something...

Well if you're being honest about your role that's phenomenal for us. I've really disliked Jordan's attack on MM lately and MM has been calm and rational about the whole deal. I've got a lot of respect for you charter and you raise some really good points about Kirby so...

Unvote; Vote: Kirbyoshi

This, especially the last sentence. Most of charter's case against me is bullcrap, yet you say he "raises really good points". This is more buddying-esque than anything anyone charter accused of it has done, and Monkey's been defending himself well enough recently, so...

Unvote Monkey, Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Kirbyoshi gets -1 points for failing to use any of the phrases "blatant(ly)", "ham-handed", "brazen", or "unabashedly" in his post.

[MonkeyMan576]

Kirbyoshi gets -1 points for failing to use any of the phrases "blatant(ly)", "ham-handed", "brazen", or "unabashedly" in his post.

Since DDD refuses to answer his accusations, and he was over-promoting himself early as obvtown, I'm inclined to,

Unvote:
Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

MonkeyMan gets -1 points for failing to reconize that my response was in fact an answer to Kirbyoshi's accusation.

[MonkeyMan576]

I guess you're just too clever for me then, I don't see it.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Think of the post as a more verbose version of "duh". I was clearly and obviously buddying with charter.

[MonkeyMan576]

Think of the post as a more verbose version of "duh". I was clearly and obviously buddying with charter.

I think it's a valid point, at least worthy of discussion.

[Ectomancer]

Caffeine, methamphetamines, whatever it is quit doing it. You don't even remember that you accused me of being ML's buddy, not Kirby.

Actually, he accused the three of us of being a scum trio.

The only way he makes a 'link' of you being ML's buddy is that after he decided ML and I must be buddies, he didn't like your post, decided that was 3 scum so tossed you in as a scum trio. Never did he make any accusations of buddying between the two of you. No links or accusations whatsover of collaboration at all. The direct accusation of buddying betwen ML and anyone was me. Don't be making excuses when it is clear he isn't even paying attention to his own statements.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Think of the post as a more verbose version of "duh". I was clearly and obviously buddying with charter.

I think it's a valid point, at least worthy of discussion.

I never said we couldn't discuss it, since I plan on mocking everyone who tries to use it as a scumtell that would be a tad hypocritical.

[MonkeyMan576]

There's a difference between saying something is a "scumtell" and suspicious, and you haven't addressed the accusations of over-promoting your towniness.

[elvis_knits]

Monkeyman, quote for me where DDD "over-promoted his towniness."

[MonkeyMan576]

Of course I'm careful with my wording, it doesn't help me as town or scum to make mistakes of any kind; let alone silly wording errors.

I have no reason not to project the confidence I feel on the matter. It could be WIFOMed to death, but

I'd suggest that my willingness to take a hard stance with confidence is a town-tell and that scum are more likely to waffle and try and keep their options open

. Certainly when I look back at my scum play that's the primary issue I see.

[Ectomancer]

Hang on, I just noticed something...

Well if you're being honest about your role that's phenomenal for us. I've really disliked Jordan's attack on MM lately and MM has been calm and rational about the whole deal. I've got a lot of respect for you charter and you raise some really good points about Kirby so...

Unvote; Vote: Kirbyoshi

This, especially the last sentence. Most of charter's case against me is bullcrap, yet you say he "raises really good points". This is more buddying-esque than anything anyone charter accused of it has done, and Monkey's been defending himself well enough recently, so...

Unvote Monkey, Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

I'm also interested in what in charter's case he found to be "really good points", though I think there is plenty of case to be made against you.

Monkey, do you find it surprising that charter played up to you so hard in his assessments? Go read back and notice he didn't mention you

once

until he comes out with this "Monkey is obvtown" statement. Where did he come up with this? He never mentioned you or your case up to this time except maybe to reference the case as a means to accuse someone of being scummy.
Now go read his post again and tell me if it looks to you like he went into this with a "Monkey is town" disposition. How would he know your alignment so assuredly that his entire post was centered around the assumption that you are town? You'll notice he did this without providing a single comment in support of this idea, either in support of your comments, or in opposition to the details of the case against you.

[MonkeyMan576]

Hang on, I just noticed something...

Well if you're being honest about your role that's phenomenal for us. I've really disliked Jordan's attack on MM lately and MM has been calm and rational about the whole deal. I've got a lot of respect for you charter and you raise some really good points about Kirby so...

Unvote; Vote: Kirbyoshi

This, especially the last sentence. Most of charter's case against me is bullcrap, yet you say he "raises really good points". This is more buddying-esque than anything anyone charter accused of it has done, and Monkey's been defending himself well enough recently, so...

Unvote Monkey, Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

I'm also interested in what in charter's case he found to be "really good points", though I think there is plenty of case to be made against you.

Monkey, do you find it surprising that charter played up to you so hard in his assessments? Go read back and notice he didn't mention you

once

until he comes out with this "Monkey is obvtown" statement. Where did he come up with this? He never mentioned you or your case up to this time except maybe to reference the case as a means to accuse someone of being scummy.
Now go read his post again and tell me if it looks to you like he went into this with a "Monkey is town" disposition. How would he know your alignment so assuredly that his entire post was centered around the assumption that you are town? You'll notice he did this without providing a single comment in support of this idea, either in support of your comments, or in opposition to the details of the case against you.

This is a valid observation. He said that he was going to present his case later on but never did, at least not yet. I assumed he was also going to explain how I was obvtown. Overpromoting someone else as obvtown can be as suspicious as overpromoting yourself, and I'm wondering about his motivations for suddenly coming to my defence. At first I was just gracious not to be on L-1 anymore, but looking at things a bit more objectively it looks a bit odd.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

There's a difference between saying something is a "scumtell" and suspicious, and you haven't addressed the accusations of over-promoting your towniness.

I said something I believe to be true, certainly true for my play, so no issues there. And I don't believe that trying to show off town credentials is a scumtell either, both town and scum want to be percieved as such, hence not a scumtell.

[MonkeyMan576]

There's a difference between saying something is a "scumtell" and suspicious, and you haven't addressed the accusations of over-promoting your towniness.

I said something I believe to be true, certainly true for my play, so no issues there. And I don't believe that trying to show off town credentials is a scumtell either, both town and scum want to be percieved as such, hence not a scumtell.

Actually, scum are more concerned about player perceptions and town are more worried about finding scum. I would argue saying you are obvtown when you are not is a scumtell.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

There's a difference between saying something is a "scumtell" and suspicious, and you haven't addressed the accusations of over-promoting your towniness.

I said something I believe to be true, certainly true for my play, so no issues there. And I don't believe that trying to show off town credentials is a scumtell either, both town and scum want to be percieved as such, hence not a scumtell.

Actually, scum are more concerned about player perceptions and town are more worried about finding scum. I would argue saying you are obvtown when you are not is a scumtell.

Not being concerned about self-image is the way [insult redacted] get themselves run up to L-1 on Day One. As town it's bad to get lynched or even run up to L-1, hence controlling people's perceptions of you is just as important as finding scum.

[MonkeyMan576]

There's a difference between saying something is a "scumtell" and suspicious, and you haven't addressed the accusations of over-promoting your towniness.

I said something I believe to be true, certainly true for my play, so no issues there. And I don't believe that trying to show off town credentials is a scumtell either, both town and scum want to be percieved as such, hence not a scumtell.

Actually, scum are more concerned about player perceptions and town are more worried about finding scum. I would argue saying you are obvtown when you are not is a scumtell.

Not being concerned about self-image is the way [insult redacted] get themselves run up to L-1 on Day One. As town it's bad to get lynched or even run up to L-1, hence controlling people's perceptions of you is just as important as finding scum.

There's a difference between not being viewed as scum, which could be argued is a valid priority, and overpromoting yourself, which is, saying you are more townie than you are. Scum-hunting is the best way not to be viewed as scum, not over-hyping yourself or misrepresenting yourself.

[MacavityLock]

Well, charter's entrance shakes things up a bit, don't it? A good portion of the Kirby case is pretty reasonable, and I could get behind it. One big old problem I have with your initial pass-through charter is how heavily you leaned on pairings. I mean, you said it yourself, you were up to 5 scum at one point. People agree with other's arguments all the time, do you really think it makes them any more likely to be scumbuddies? I really don't think it's a great scumhunting method until we actually have some flips.

For everyone, a question about charter's claim. I've never played with a Paranoid Gun Owner before, and as far as I can tell it's a pretty uncommon role. It's going to prevent cops/trackers from targeting him, so this seems like it would make for a pretty amazing fakeclaim. Is it common strategy for a PGO to claim on first post (essentially)? Possibilities that this is a really great fakeclaim? I have no idea, so other opinions/other games/discussions anyone could point me to would be helpful.

----

As for Monkey, the fact is he twisted himself into knots trying to explain his hands-off approach to SL vs his prying approach to Jordan, as well as the "OMGUS" attack on Jordan. Monkey's iso 25 "back off" post to EL reeks. Additionally, lost in the Monkey/Jordan claim debate is the fact that Monkey waited until L-1 to claim (in fact, he had a post w/o a claim while at L-1), even though he was supposedly a proponent of claiming earlier than that (L-2). Fear re: a fakeclaim? Also, the DDD-wagon is crap. I still like a Monkey-wagon.

----

People we haven't heard from in a while: ekiM, Snix, SL.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Not being concerned about self-image is the way [insult redacted] get themselves run up to L-1 on Day One. As town it's bad to get lynched or even run up to L-1, hence controlling people's perceptions of you is just as important as finding scum.

There's a difference between not being viewed as scum, which could be argued is a valid priority, and overpromoting yourself, which is, saying you are more townie than you are. Scum-hunting is the best way not to be viewed as scum, not over-hyping yourself or misrepresenting yourself.

In terms of this game, the "over promoting" consists of a single line that I admitted was WIFOM when I made the post.

In general, if you want to restrict yourself to an incredibly narrow defintion of "town play" feel free, but personally I'm a fan of not being afraid to use whatever may help me.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, charter's entrance shakes things up a bit, don't it? A good portion of the Kirby case is pretty reasonable, and I could get behind it. One big old problem I have with your initial pass-through charter is how heavily you leaned on pairings. I mean, you said it yourself, you were up to 5 scum at one point. People agree with other's arguments all the time, do you really think it makes them any more likely to be scumbuddies? I really don't think it's a great scumhunting method until we actually have some flips.

For everyone, a question about charter's claim. I've never played with a Paranoid Gun Owner before, and as far as I can tell it's a pretty uncommon role. It's going to prevent cops/trackers from targeting him, so this seems like it would make for a pretty amazing fakeclaim. Is it common strategy for a PGO to claim on first post (essentially)? Possibilities that this is a really great fakeclaim? I have no idea, so other opinions/other games/discussions anyone could point me to would be helpful.

----

As for Monkey, the fact is he twisted himself into knots trying to explain his hands-off approach to SL vs his prying approach to Jordan, as well as the "OMGUS" attack on Jordan. Monkey's iso 25 "back off" post to EL reeks. Additionally, lost in the Monkey/Jordan claim debate is the fact that Monkey waited until L-1 to claim (in fact, he had a post w/o a claim while at L-1), even though he was supposedly a proponent of claiming earlier than that (L-2). Fear re: a fakeclaim? Also, the DDD-wagon is crap. I still like a Monkey-wagon.

----

People we haven't heard from in a while: ekiM, Snix, SL.

I'm a proponent of L-2 claiming, but I'm not a proponent of claiming without being asked. Since no one had asked me to claim at L-2, I didn't. Also, I was suspicious of the last two votes on my wagon.

And you say the DDD wagon is "crap", but don't offer any specific reasons one way or the other. Everyone is just supposed to take your word for it, as opposed to people who actually have valid reasons for their suspicions?

[MacavityLock]

I'm a proponent of L-2 claiming, but I'm not a proponent of claiming without being asked. Since no one had asked me to claim at L-2, I didn't. Also, I was suspicious of the last two votes on my wagon.

contradicts with

I disagree, L-1 gives scum the opportunity to drop the hammer before the roleclaim, so L-2 is the more ideal time.

Is it about the possibility of hammer, or the claim request?

[MonkeyMan576]

btw, I've played with a PGO before, but not on MS. It's a fairly common role on the non-MS site where I play. That being said, it is a pretty easy fake role claim, especially since it's not used here often.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm a proponent of L-2 claiming, but I'm not a proponent of claiming without being asked. Since no one had asked me to claim at L-2, I didn't. Also, I was suspicious of the last two votes on my wagon.

contradicts with

I disagree, L-1 gives scum the opportunity to drop the hammer before the roleclaim, so L-2 is the more ideal time.

Is it about the possibility of hammer, or the claim request?

Both. Even if you have a policy on something like claiming, you can't use it as a hard and fast rule, without exceptions or evaluation of game conditions.