Mini 855: Colorless Rainbow Town (Halted for list mod error)

[Fuzzyman]

By the way for everyone's knowledge, I would be voting Manzcar because he is my biggest suspect right now, however I want discussion to carry on freely rather than a mass of suspicion of Manzcar. I think it's too early to confirm that he is scum, and that we should wait for the rest of the players to post. Furthermore,

Unvote.

So what you're doing is expressing a dislike for him without a willingness to take responsibility for his lynch.

Vote: ZEEnon

[ZEEnon]

No, what I am doing is disallowing a potential quicklynch while allowing discussion.
The fact that you don't ask me any questions or discuss first is very suspicious.

[cruelty]

unvote

Just so everyone is aware, I'm from New Zealand and am currently 16 hours ahead of EST. So I won't be around during American daytime.



Anyway, with regards to the current Monkey vs Manzcar debate, I'm currently sort of sitting on the fence. The vibe I'm getting is a fairly early town vs town skirmish. I'm not hugely concerned about either party right now, definitely not concerned enough to vote.


ZEEnon is it really necessary to use that orange, it's very hard to read, especially on even-numbered posts.

[cruelty]

Incidentally I do tend to agree that rolefishing scum roles isn't scummy. I can see the danger inherent in doing so, though. I think that we currently have a case of a slightly dubious (but ultimately pro-town) post being attacked by an overzealous townie.

[Scien]

Hmm, fast thread.

I meant that he was being over-antagonistic towards a player trying to get information that would be useful to the town.

I don't get it. Yes the question made it sound like he suspected you. But it didn't seem to me like the question itself was supposed to antagonize you. I think you are blowing things up and have been for a while at this point.

His response was quick and defensive and his vote was OMGUS.

Hmm. His vote was OMGUS? Off of one question? I think that you have caught this tenancy to blow things up too. You really think that his vote was OMGUS?

I ask who was going to give you this information that would be benefical to the town? Was scum going to come out and say hey here I am?

Looking back would you claim that his original question was of a role fishing nature or just a possibilities type question? Do you think that it would be wise for scum to lie about something in thread that could easilly be disproved by asking the mod, or a more careful reading of the rules? What makes you think that asking the town about role possibilities is meaningless?

I currently see the MonkeyMan576 and Manzcar argument as town vs. town, with MonkeyMan576 leaning the more likely town.

I have to agree with this statement. Things have been blown up out of proportion, but what this really comes down to is Monkey asking about possibilities. He wasn't fishing for actual roles, he was wondering what was possible. If he was scum he would have inside information about what roles they had and probably wouldn't be asking in thread. It is possible he would ask such a question to look pro-town by pretending to not know about scum setup, but this would be pretty sneaky, and the play so far would not suggest that he would pull this. (Anyone have meta on him in other games?)

[Quoted Monkee's claim that the question was contrived to incriminate] This was my thought too while I read that post of his.

Eh? Really? You thought Manz's question was intending to incriminate? I would like to examine this... why do you think that. How is the way he worded it different than any other question that someone who is suspicious of someone else would ask?

By the way for everyone's knowledge, I would be voting Manzcar because he is my biggest suspect right now, however I want discussion to carry on freely rather than a mass of suspicion of Manzcar. I think it's too early to confirm that he is scum, and that we should wait for the rest of the players to post.

Hmm this is interesting as well. Not 7 posts of yours before this, and roughly 20 mins you had said you thought the argument as town vs town. You changed your mind? What made you do so?

So where is your case against me. I have asked for it but you still can not provide a case other than to say I am scummy.

/facepalm...try reading the thread...

I too would like to see you concisely list it out. I think that it is likely weak, and if you go back to quote original phrases, and pull your thoughts in, it will likely help the town out. I know that I can go back and read it, but I would like to see your current accusations as kind of a sanity check against how your griefs have evolved.

No, what I am doing is disallowing a potential quicklynch while allowing discussion.

Eh with two votes on him, I don't think that potential is very high. You think that it is higher than the benefit of additional pressure would get you?

[d3x]

I am a little concerned that Raivann couldn't come up with anything concrete in his response to my p81. The feeling I'm getting is Scum trying to get the wagon rolling along without completely understanding the argument. No one was accusing Manz for 'jumping on MM' yet that's what he didn't like about Manz's play and yet he couldn't come up with a single specific instance?

FoS:Raivann

and an

UnVote

for posterity's sake.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, maybe Raivann should be the one to lay out the argument for Manz instead of me, then. I think I've already explained it enough, and there is some reasonable concern as to Raivann's understanding of it.

[Manzcar]

I still find it strange that people are not willing to lay out their case against someone they say is scummy. Is it really difficult to lay out a case or is it just laziness. Why would anyone that is protown want to withhold information from the town?

My case against Monkey again.

First my question to Monkey was

Why does it matter Monkey what roles are out there?

Defensive attitude when asked the question and twisting the meaning of the question to mean something it didn't to serve as a scum tell.

Unvote:
Vote: Mancar

Only scum would be concerned about town knowing their role makeup. Not saying we do, but certainly suspicious.

I never said I was concerned about town knowing the roles makeup. Where did I say that I was concerned that the town may find out the role make up from that question… I didn’t. The question was twisted into meaning something it never meant.

Twisting answers by a person to mean something that they did not to serve as a scum tell.

thus why it felt like rolefishing.

There were no set rules stating what roles townies or scum have. So in my mind rolefishing is rolefishing. It's just a small step from fishing roles on townies or scum.

That's where my opinion differs from your opinion. There is a BIG difference. Knowing scum roles helps town. Knowing town roles helps scum.

I was talking about rolefishing in general not knowing the roles. I never said that knowing scum roles didn’t help the town I said that rolefishing is rolefishing. And in my mind rolefishing of any kind has the ability to out power roles.

Making wild accusations with no backing

No i agree knowing scum roles helps town knowing town roles helps scum. Fishing for roles could actually bring out town roles you didn't mean to bring out so therefor fishing for roles is anti town.

We differ in that I feel fishing for roles is bad for town.

I think you're trying to disguise your scummy concern for the town knowing mafia roles. It's easy to discern town rolefishing and scum rolefishing.

I said I agreed that knowing scum roles helps town. But I am trying to disguise my concern for the town knowing mafia roles. Mafia will never tell us their roles. They will never drop breadcrumbs so others know their role because the Mafia already knows each other. It is WIFOM but why would Mafia care if you started wondering about the Mafia set up. They wouldn’t. To say they would is making a wild accusation to fit your vote.

Misrep’n me to paint me in a scummy light.

So to clarify, you Voted him because you felt that his asking...

Why does it matter Monkey what roles are out there?

...was anti-Town?

Yes, since it implies that he is against the town getting that sort of info.

Where does it imply that I am against the town knowing the Mafia roles. I keep saying I believe knowing the Mafia roles would benefit the town. I keep saying that rolefishing of anykind can out power roles beneficial to the town even by accident. But you keep saying I don’t want anyone to know the Mafia roles which I have never said nor implied. You have admitted to the fact that you were rolefishing for scum roles.

[quote="MonkeyMan576]
I think it was fairly obvious that my rolefishing was directed at scum. I can percieve where a townie would be concerned with rolefishing in general, but to me it is more likely that he is scum worried about the town knowing their role makeup. Being concerned about scum rolefishing is scummy, being concerned about rolefishing in general without noting the difference between looking for scum info and looking for town info is suspicious at least. He continues to defend his position without recognizing my point.[/quote]

First you say that a townie could be concerned with rolefishing in general (either for scum or for power roles), but when I am concerned about your rolefishing it’s because I am scum worried about the town finding out about the Mafia roles. Well again, I recognized your point and even agreed that knowing the Mafia set up would benefit town. You have chosen to ignore that fact. I have posted that I agreed to that point and yet you ignore that fact. You are misrepresenting me, my intent, and my position. My point is that I am concerned that rolefishing of any kind can out a power role beneficial to the town even by accident. My position is I asked you a question and you have over reacted and started to attack me for asking you the question. You still haven’t said who was going to let you know the Mafia roles you were fishing for. My play style is if anyone says or does anything that doesn’t make sense to me or seems off I will ask a question to see what reaction I get. And you have given yours and I believe I have all the information that I need on you at this time.

[Scien]

Well, maybe Raivann should be the one to lay out the argument for Manz instead of me, then. I think I've already explained it enough, and there is some reasonable concern as to Raivann's understanding of it.

Well he can if he wishes. If he does I would like him to back up his griefs on you as well since he said he suspected you in almost the same breath as he said he suspected Manz. People shouldn't just go around tossing out suspicion without talking about it.

I would still like you to briefly list out you case. I think both you and Manz are misrepresenting each other, and this has got me curious as to if this is intentional or not.

[Posts his griefs]

This is part of the reason why I would like to see a condensed Monkey case. I believe that you have been misreping in places as well, and I would like to see where he believes that is the case.

[MonkeyMan576]

[quote="Scien"]

I would still like you to briefly list out you case. I think both you and Manz are misrepresenting each other, and this has got me curious as to if this is intentional or not.

[quote="Manz"]

I don't believe I'm misrepping him. I've acknowladged that he could be town acting scummy, but he's not helping himself by not recognizing my point as valid and continuing to use silly counterarguments.

[Manzcar]

I am not intentionally misrepping anyone. If anyone would like to point out where I am I would like to know.

As stated before I don't know if he is acting this way because he is a paranoid town or because he is scum. I believe that for me I have exhausted the subject and would like others to get involved in conversations.

[Manzcar]

Which argument was silly. I have recognized your points in many places. Which points am I not recognizing?

[MonkeyMan576]

Which argument was silly. I have recognized your points in many places. Which points am I not recognizing?

The point that looking for scum roles is pro-town.

[MonkeyMan576]

Which argument was silly.

Saying that I attacked you for "no reason"

Saying my case is WIFOM and without merit.

Saying my case is "leap of reality".

Saying I am twisting your words.

Saying my attitude is defensive, when it's not.

Saying my accusations are "wild".

Saying I am misrepping you.

Basically you are doing everything you can to discredit me without taking on the actual argument.

[Manzcar]

I said knowing what scum roles were out there is good for town and protown several times.

[MonkeyMan576]

I said knowing what scum roles were out there is good for town and protown several times.

Well that is totally opposite of your attempts to discredit me, and you showing concern for town learning that info in your opening post, but I appreciate your acknoladgement of my position. We have little to argue about at this point.

[Manzcar]

I have given examples to my points.

Why don't you explain away the examples instead of simply saying that they are silly. Change my mind that what you did wasn't how I have interpreted it. Simply saying my examples have no merit but not explaining why does not validate your point that they are silly.

[Manzcar]

Are you kidding me. Are you telling me that you continued to argue with me because you have missed the several time that I have said that knowing scum roles benefits the town?

[MonkeyMan576]

Are you kidding me. Are you telling me that you continued to argue with me because you have missed the several time that I have said that knowing scum roles benefits the town?

Yeah, I must have missed it in between your superlatives, and it is still backtracking on your original post.

[Manzcar]

Okay now

UNVOTE

by the way my original post was to find out if you were rolefishing and to find out why? My unvote is due to the fact that I now believe Monkey to be a paranoid townie, which is what I was trying to figure out.

[MonkeyMan576]

Okay now

UNVOTE

by the way my original post was to find out if you were rolefishing and to find out why? My unvote is due to the fact that I now believe Monkey to be a paranoid townie, which is what I was trying to figure out.

Me being "paranoid" is contingent on you being town, which is hardly a given at this point. But it's always better to understand each other than engage in pointless arguments.

[Scien]

LOL... you guys are exhausting.

I'm waiting for Zee to get back. I think I have questions to him out already.

[MonkeyMan576]

For now I'll

Unvote

We can always lynch Manzcar if he is our best suspect at the end of the day, but it would be better to pursue other cases at this point...

Raivann, can you summarize the case against Manczar, and who do you believe is suspicious or scummy at this point?

[Raivann]

I am a little concerned that Raivann couldn't come up with anything concrete in his response to my p81. The feeling I'm getting is Scum trying to get the wagon rolling along without completely understanding the argument. No one was accusing Manz for 'jumping on MM' yet that's what he didn't like about Manz's play and yet he couldn't come up with a single specific instance?

FoS:Raivann

and an

UnVote

for posterity's sake.

Another scummy post from d3x.

I was saying Manz was jumping on MM. Your arguement makes no sense. Didn't they vote each other and argue the last 4 pages? This whole 'single specific instance' is BS.

I'm also suspicious of you and Manz for making up cases on people out of thin air right after and in the RVS. I just finished a game where Kmd scum did that.

Vote:d3x

What exactly is an unvote for posterity's sake?

[d3x]

Another scummy post from d3x? Where was the first? Where did you point out the first?

I was saying Manz was jumping on MM.

Yes you did. And I asked where this happened. You responded in a generic manner without adding

anything

to the discussion. My 'argument' is that your actions didn't really follow the vein of why Manz was considered scummy. Adding to this is the fact that Manz didn't Vote MM until after your comments, so please don't try using that to justify your comments in hindsight.

I do however like your OMGUS on me. Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me on what 'cases' I've been making up out of thin air and why it would be a problem to start a case during the RVS. How else would we get out of the RVS? Is the ScumKmd game the only one where this has happened? I also find it interesting that you're trying to link me to Manz this early.

An UnVote for posterity's sake means that we're clearly out of the RVS and I don't think that my Vote should still be there.