Mini 855: Colorless Rainbow Town (Halted for list mod error)

[Raivann]

My point is I don't think a pro-town player would have asked the question, or implied my position was anti-town.

So you are very confident that Manzcar is scum, correct?

So you are very confident that Manzcar is scum, correct?

Scien's questioning can both be seen a pro-town and scummy, in my opinion. I have a null tell on him/her.

Why did you post this?

For now I'll

Unvote

We can always lynch Manzcar if he is our best suspect at the end of the day, but it would be better to pursue other cases at this point...

Raivann, can you summarize the case against Manczar, and who do you believe is suspicious or scummy at this point?

To which Manzcar case do you refer?

At this point I'm not sure on anyone, but I'm leaning scum on d3x, and I'm leaning town on Fuzzyman.

Why did you unvote again?Why can't you concentrate on other players with your vote still on Manz? Or did you have a change of heart?

[Raivann]

Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me on what 'cases' I've been making up out of thin air

Here's one...

I am a little concerned that Raivann couldn't come up with anything concrete in his response to my p81. The feeling I'm getting is Scum trying to get the wagon rolling along without completely understanding the argument. No one was accusing Manz for 'jumping on MM' yet that's what he didn't like about Manz's play and yet he couldn't come up with a single specific instance?

FoS:Raivann

and an

UnVote

for posterity's sake.

[MonkeyMan576]

My point is I don't think a pro-town player would have asked the question, or implied my position was anti-town.

So you are very confident that Manzcar is scum, correct?

So you are very confident that Manzcar is scum, correct?

Scien's questioning can both be seen a pro-town and scummy, in my opinion. I have a null tell on him/her.

Why did you post this?

For now I'll

Unvote

We can always lynch Manzcar if he is our best suspect at the end of the day, but it would be better to pursue other cases at this point...

Raivann, can you summarize the case against Manczar, and who do you believe is suspicious or scummy at this point?

To which Manzcar case do you refer?

At this point I'm not sure on anyone, but I'm leaning scum on d3x, and I'm leaning town on Fuzzyman.

Why did you unvote again?Why can't you concentrate on other players with your vote still on Manz? Or did you have a change of heart?

Casebuilding is more effective if you have a vote to use. Right now I'm through building my case on Manzcar. There's only one major case. Do you understand the case or not?

[Raivann]

Yes, believe it or not MM & d3x, I can read and process information.

[MonkeyMan576]

Yes, believe it or not MM & d3x, I can read and process information.

Okay, this is dodging at it's finest...

FOS: Raivann

[cruelty]

At this point I'm not sure on anyone, but I'm leaning scum on d3x, and

I'm leaning town on Fuzzyman.

Huh?

Fuzzyman has posted twice with a total of 28 words. How can you possibly have a town read from what he's said?


If you somehow did have a magical ability to extrapolate allegiance from such minimal input, then I still can't see why it'd be necessary to make a note of it. I'm wondering if it's a poorly integrated breadcrumb..

[Dizzle]

I agree with cruelty here, proclaiming Fuzzy as leaning town seems premature given his, and the general, lack of posts. I look forward to hearing Raivann's reasoning.

[d3x]

Alright Raivann, let's try this a different way, maybe it's just a terminology thing. How do you personally build a viable case?

And...

Yes, believe it or not MM & d3x, I can read and process information.

I don't know where this came from. Firstly, you were talking to MM. Secondly, I don't think I've come

anywhere

near a line to cross where I'm insulting your ability to read and/or process information. If I have, then I'm sorry. This does not mean that I'm going to back down on my questioning/Scum Hunting you, but I want you to know that there's nothing even remotely personal here. I just think you're acting in a very questionable manner {read- scummy}.

Finally, have you no response to the rest of my p124?

[Raivann]

At this point I'm not sure on anyone, but I'm leaning scum on d3x, and

I'm leaning town on Fuzzyman.

Huh?

Fuzzyman has posted twice with a total of 28 words. How can you possibly have a town read from what he's said?


If you somehow did have a magical ability to extrapolate allegiance from such minimal input, then I still can't see why it'd be necessary to make a note of it. I'm wondering if it's a poorly integrated breadcrumb..

Yeah, he has only 2 posts but both his posts were confident and to the point and on those points, I agree. Notice I didn't say prob or confirmed, i said leaning. Gut read. Why you even trippin?

Here's his 2 posts if you're lazy...

I don't even think it was antagonistic.

By the way for everyone's knowledge, I would be voting Manzcar because he is my biggest suspect right now, however I want discussion to carry on freely rather than a mass of suspicion of Manzcar. I think it's too early to confirm that he is scum, and that we should wait for the rest of the players to post. Furthermore,

Unvote.

So what you're doing is expressing a dislike for him without a willingness to take responsibility for his lynch.

Vote: ZEEnon

Why do you want me to summarize a case on Manz, Monkey?

[Raivann]

Looks like I missed RVS but I really want to OMGUS RVS vote Sweep

Vote:Sweep

Nice avatar, looks like an orange fruit roll-up, unrolled-up.

Unvote

Ok then..Upon first read I dont like Manz's jumpin on MM for noticing the difference in Mods rules or sample PMs or whatever.

I also dont like MM's quick vote on Manz. He does seem a little jumpy to me

MM, what I'm saying here is that I agreed with you about your first posts about possible scum roles and I didn't find it scummy.

[Raivann]

Alright Raivann, let's try this a different way, maybe it's just a terminology thing. How do you personally build a viable case?

And...

Yes, believe it or not MM & d3x, I can read and process information.

I don't know where this came from. Firstly, you were talking to MM. Secondly, I don't think I've come

anywhere

near a line to cross where I'm insulting your ability to read and/or process information. If I have, then I'm sorry. This does not mean that I'm going to back down on my questioning/Scum Hunting you, but I want you to know that there's nothing even remotely personal here. I just think you're acting in a very questionable manner {read- scummy}.

Finally, have you no response to the rest of my p124?

It's all good, no insult taken. I was referring to your post here were you FoS and call me scumfor not understanding the argument...

I am a little concerned that Raivann couldn't come up with anything concrete in his response to my p81.

The feeling I'm getting is Scum trying to get the wagon rolling along without completely understanding the argument.

No one was accusing Manz for 'jumping on MM' yet that's what he didn't like about Manz's play and yet he couldn't come up with a single specific instance?

FoS:Raivann

and an

UnVote

for posterity's sake.

[d3x]

I see what you're saying now. I was calling you out for being opportunistically scummy there. Essentially, I saw a play that could easily be a Scum seeing a negative trend developing on a player and jumping on without needing to understand the case, thus getting it wrong.

The combined with your most recent play gives you a

Vote:Raivann

in my book.

[Raivann]

Alright Raivann, let's try this a different way, maybe it's just a terminology thing. How do you personally build a viable case?
[/quote]
I try to see where players are coming from and the motives for saying what they are saying. Scum seem to try to twist peoples words more than townies.
My case on you,for instance, is that you manipulated my words saying I didn't understand the argument.
Its harder on Day 1. I'm not as concerned with noob or textbook mistakes in the RVS.I'm more suspicious of the people who go after them and try to take control of the town.

[jasonT1981]

I'm

V/LA

until Monday night / Tuesday morning, sorry I have had an urgent family situation arise

[cruelty]

Yeah, he has only 2 posts but both his posts were confident and to the point and on those points, I agree. Notice I didn't say prob or confirmed, i said leaning. Gut read. Why you even trippin?

Here's his 2 posts if you're lazy...

I am aware you didn't say anything absolute, that doesn't change the fact that you brought up a relatively inactive (in terms of the game so far) player who has made two tiny posts as being possibly town, for no good reason.


I am aware it is a small issue, but I think it was a very odd thing to say, and I don't really like your reply - I'm "trippin"? I think that in this game it's the little things that you have to look at, and randomly proclaiming that someone is probably town (probably being more likely to be town than not, in your opinion. That is, "leaning town") this early in the game with such little input from the object of your affection is dangerous.


I don't like that you can get a feel for allegiances with so little to go on - that's just dangerous for a townie, and is what I'd expect from scum.

FoS: Raivann

[ZEEnon]

To rolefish and bring out possible town roles I think scum would do anything. To assume that they wouldn't is naive.

Do you think that MonkeyMan576 could have potentially outted a role(s) with his speculation about the mafia team make-up?

[ZEEnon]

It is WIFOM to say that scum wouldn't rolefish their own roles. it isn't like scum is going to drop breadcrumbs on their roles. If something doesn't make sense to me or seems off to me I will ask questions.

I never said that scum wouldn't rolefish their own roles. What I did say is that scum would really have nothing to gain from asking about their own roles. How do you think that MonkeyMan576 could have benefited, as mafia, from speculating about whether or not the mafia have power roles, when he clearly would have known whether or not that was so? Don't say that it could have potentially outted a role, as I don't see how that is possible unless the mafia claimed, which would have been a positive aspect anyways. The only way I see how MonkeyMan576, as mafia, could have used the speculation to his advantage is if he used it to try to gain town-cred acting naive about the mafia make-up. We don't know whether or not he tried to do that, therefore you should just view that post of his as a null-tell, at the worst.

[ZEEnon]

What I find funny is that Monkey keeps saying that I am attacking him and trying to incriminate him but all I did was ask a question. That is when he voted me. I am still not sure whether or not he is scum but I also feel that others need to get involved and more discussion needs to happen.

The problem with the question you asked is that instead of specifying your question to say 'mafia roles', you generalized and made it just 'roles', which also infers that he is rolefishing. So you put his post in a negative light, perhaps on purpose, perhaps unknowingly.

[ZEEnon]

I would like Zee or Monkey to explain why it is scummy rather than say a town player wouldn't question someone rolefishing scum roles because that is WIFOM. Because as far as I can tell that is all that there is to this argument.

This question didn't really make sense to me. Could you please re-word it?

[ZEEnon]

Ok then..Upon first read I dont like Manz's jumpin on MM for noticing the difference in Mods rules or sample PMs or whatever.

I also dont like MM's quick vote on Manz. He does seem a little jumpy to me

Way to play both sides..

[ZEEnon]

ZEEnon is it really necessary to use that orange, it's very hard to read, especially on even-numbered posts.

Sorry but there are barely enough colors to use as it is. Just do what I do; highlight the post.

[ZEEnon]

Incidentally I do tend to agree that rolefishing scum roles isn't scummy. I can see the danger inherent in doing so, though.

What danger do you see can come from it?

[ZEEnon]

Eh? Really? You thought Manz's question was intending to incriminate? I would like to examine this... why do you think that. How is the way he worded it different than any other question that someone who is suspicious of someone else would ask?

Happy birthday. I explained this in post 142.

Hmm this is interesting as well. Not 7 posts of yours before this, and roughly 20 mins you had said you thought the argument as town vs town. You changed your mind? What made you do so?

I fully realized this while I wrote that. Although I feel the

argument

could potentially be town vs. town, Manzcar is in actuality my top suspect. I'm not sure if that makes sense to you.

Eh with two votes on him, I don't think that potential is very high. You think that it is higher than the benefit of additional pressure would get you?

As you can tell from my fairly late reply, I cannot be on as frequently as I would like to. Therefore, I don't know what could happen from the time I sign out to the next time I sign in. For all I know, it's been a hectic weekend, and I was unable to sign on. Therefore, a lynch could be realized even before I could see it progress. I think that even without voting him, voicing my suspicions of him gives the same results as me actually voting him. Hell, I said I would be voting him. Therefore, I think it gives the same result.

[ZEEnon]

I said knowing what scum roles were out there is good for town and protown several times.

Woah, really? That's not what you implied in your question to MonkeyMan576. Please explain.

[ZEEnon]

Raivann, in post 123 you say this:

Another scummy post from d3x.

I don't recall you mentioning an inital scummy post from d3x. Could you point out the first one?