Mini 848 - Second String Muppets Mafia - Game Over.

[Zorblag]

It's a reasonably short day of arguing and before long you decide who it is that must be responsible for the deaths of Nigel and J.P. Grosse. After the lynch is over and you're looking at your handiwork there are just two questions you can't seem to shake.

How did they get that much detail in the hands and what again is the boundary for second string?

Vote Count 1.8

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

Kirbyoshi: 7: charter (21), Debonair Danny DiPietro (22), MacavityLock (27), Eldritch Lord (28), ~Jordan` (29), MonkeyMan576 (30), elvis_knits (31)
Debonair Danny DiPietro: 2: Snix (16), Kirbyoshi (25)
~Jordan`: 1: springlullaby (2)
Eldritch Lord: 1: ekiM (28)

Not Voting: Ectomancer

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Kirbyoshi, The Swedish Chef, townie

, was lynched Day one.

Deadline for submitting night actions is tentatively 5:00 PM EDT/2:00 PM PDT on Saturday, September 26th 2009. As at least one player was being prodded when the day ended night will continue until I have had confirmation that they are still around or I have found any necessary replacements. I'll update the thread when one of those two conditions is fulfilled and if there is to be a replacement Deadline for night actions will be extended to 24 hours after I confirm the last replacement in thread.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Mod Note: kikuchiyo replaces springlullaby.

Deadline for Night One actions is now 12:00 AM EDT Sunday September 27th/9:00 PM PDT Saturday September 26th. That is, just over 24 hours from this post. Thank you all for being patient.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

As the lights come on again in the Muppet Theater you take stock of the situation. It seems that at least some of you were busy during the night. Beauregard the stage hand and janitor is slumped over a prop off to the side of the stage and nearby there's a scattered collection of charred parts of someone. With a bit of effort you put enough together to realize that they once belonged to Floyd Pepper, basist for the Electric Mayhem (it's the scraps of his jacket that eventually clue you in.)

It seems that your work today will proceed with just 9 muppets. On the plus side for some it turns out that you're one step closer to ridding the Muppet Theater of those that want to change the show's format.

Night One is over.

kikuchiyo, Beauregard, town janitor

is killed night one.

MacavityLock, Floyd Pepper, mafia goon

is exploded night one.

Day two begins.

Vote Count 2.0

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

Not Voting: charter, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Ectomancer, ekiM, Eldritch Lord, elvis_knits, ~Jordan`,MonkeyMan576, Snix

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. Currently no one would be lynched at deadline. Deadline for night actions is 9:00 PM EDT/6:00 PM PDT on Wednesday, October 21st 2009. Note that this is later than normal because I want to avoid weekend of the site move taking place when the normal deadline would have fallen.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[charter]

Does anyone know what a janitor does?

[charter]

Hmmm, the wiki says this

The Janitor is an anti-Town role who 'cleans up the body' after a kill, preventing the town from knowing the killed player's role and alignment at daybreak.

This can't be what we're dealing with though. Has anyone heard of any other roles that were called 'janitor'?

[Ectomancer]

No, and the death description sounds like a Bomb, but I dont think our janitor caused that.

Spring was MIA, hard to get much out of that death.

ML was a serious vote on Monkey. I think he was happy with that lynch, just as he was on Kirby. I want even less to lynch Monkey today. A quick iso on ML and I see an uncomfortable amount of negative interaction between he and Snix, but no fos or vote or any real pursuit of Snix that I saw. Possibly distancing, not sure how much credence to lend that idea. Have to look further.

[Ectomancer]

Alrighty, I'm voting Snix.

vote Snix

Here he decides that a Monkey case is headed by ML, backed by Ecto, doesnt like the logic and for no plain reason decides to choose Ecto over ML. Note the already present predisposition that Monkey is town.

FOS: Jordan

He seems to post a lot without much contribution or (in later pages) defense.

He does very little to dissuade the wagon on him but it jumps quickly on to Monkey, headed by Macavitylock and backed up by ecto. Neither of which have very strong logic, soo..

Vote: Ectomancer

Here he is changing his reasons for voting for me from a random choice between two people with not strong logic on a case, to what you see below. Sorry, those 2 reasons aren't even close.

You seem to not understand, I didn't vote Ecto because he defended Jordan. I voted ecto because he denied it.

I didn't vote Ecto because of point 3 either, it was merely something I wanted a response to.

as far as the

quick

turnaround on monkey goes, it was quick... ie spastic. Although more so on ML's part than ecto. Ecto just seemed to be leading it.

Note this bottom part. ML was more responsible in Snix's words for a quick/spastic wagon, but if he was, why didn't ML get the vote and not Ecto? Pointing this out as a lack of a logical explanation for the choice between ML and Ecto.

Here is the interaction between Snix and ML. Notice the line I bolded at the top. Wait a second, didnt he say that ML was the spastic one? Why is he replying to ML saying that Ecto's response was?
How, during all of this, did he magically forget that ML was an integral part of this wagon? Why is he talking to ML as if he is someone not even involved? Did he forget that ML supposedly made the quick spastic move on Monkey?

Wherein has Ecto been grasping at straws? You certainly haven't provided examples as yet.

Alright, let me put it another way: Neither of the sides had much validity, not Monkey's wagon nor Jordan's.

I jumped on Ecto because his turn around on Monkey seemed spastic and uncalled for.

Had I started reading earlier in the day I would have gone after someone else who was on the Jordan wagon. Neither had footing.

What is the purpose of the scumbuddy question at this point? Who couldn't be Monkey's scumbuddy right now? For that matter, the same is true of Jordan and Ecto. Making any sort of argument based on scumbuddies right now is awful.

Ecto was gunning for Monkey and I wanted to know what he expected of day 2 if Monkey's wagon went through.

I don't understand this. How would Jordan have passed under your radar, given that he was the big wagon? How does me and Ecto going after Monkey say

anything

with respect to Jordan? I can't make sense of your second sentence here at all.

I didn't see the sense in his wagon as I stated above. I didn't think he was scum then and

again

still don't, just a newb.

Again, without confirmed scum or confirmed town, I have a hard time seeing how someone's actions can make another person look scummy.

Which is why I'm not voting Jordan. I don't think you guys listen very well.

Your question was "Jordan seemed to shut up after you stated that he made a newb mistake, experienced scum hushing up the less experienced?" I'm not sure what you were expecting Ecto to say here. That is, how else can someone answer that other than with a yes or a no? Seriously loaded question.

I wasn't looking for a yes or a no in particular, just a real response.

[/u]

Jump down to the bottom here for a reminder of him asking loaded questions.

In case I didn't spell it out in black and white, I think that this is a pretty good case for distancing between ML and Snix. Despite having a stated valid reason for voting ML, he didn't. They had interactions to appear on opposite sides of an issue, but somehow ML went from being what looked like a coin flip away from being a vote, to somehow being spoken to as though he were a 3rd party in this.

[Snix]

First of all, Ecto it is either great coincidence or we both know the real reason you are targeting me...

Secondly, I thought I made it clear multiple times that I was voting you over ML BECAUSE YOU WERE PUSHING IT WHILE ML DISAPPEARED.

And I already apologized and responded to your third point 115. I said:
[quote= "snix"] Roight, sorry. I had it in my mind that you voted slightly earlier than you did. Although the point still does apply. [/quote]

I am personally going to

Vote: Elvis_Knits

She Lurks through most of day 1, Pops up to defend DDD (who I still am suspicious of) and then hammers Kirby.

[Eldritch Lord]

Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

For lack of contribution and hopping on the Kirbyoshi bandwagon with little to no content, I think Snix and I had a good reason to be suspicious of you Day 1. 316-320 really gives me an odd vibe when it comes to DDD. There's also a very strange absence of conversation between MacavityLock and DDD especially around page 12, where they address the same point but fail to question each other even once. The only reference that's made about one is:

Also, the DDD-wagon is crap. I still like a Monkey-wagon.

I feel like the case against DDD is stronger because of his interactions with ML.

FoS: Charter

for defending DDD's lack of posting.

Could it be that he targeted Charter in the night?

[Eldritch Lord]

Snix, you make a good point, still I feel like DDD and ML are the core of the arguments that are going to be expressed today, everyone else will be scummy by connection, and ML is dead.

[elvis_knits]

I want to take another look at ML and ML interactions in light of this.

[MonkeyMan576]

Vote: Charter

for defrending DDD and starting the Kirby wagon.

[Eldritch Lord]

I'd urge you guys to take another look at the reasons you find people suspicious -- and focus them on the scum NK over the mislynch. Most people, by my reasoning, are going to be suspicious by link to ML.

DDD is directly linked to ML, if Charter is scummy by defending DDD then let's look at the source: DDD. I know I FoS'd Charter because I can't be certain, but I think we're looking at his claim being true and a dead scum because he's actually a PGO.

I feel like Snix isn't scum because he would've jumped on the Monkey wagon when he had a chance (L-1). I agree with Ectomancer in that Monkey is far more likely to be town since ML was riding his wagon so hard, which I can't see as distancing.

By extension, if Monkey is cleared by that, which he is in my eyes, Charter is the one who showed up and basically saved us from mislynching him, even if it did lead into another mislynch.

[Eldritch Lord]

Additional Point:

Look at how DDD's attitude regarding the Monkey/Kirby situation are very similar, they appear happy with either lynch, wanting to stick to the one that's most likely to lead to a death. Very little reasoning from DDD on this, I think we have a smaller fish following the bigger one here.

[Eldritch Lord]

EBWOP:

Additional Point: Look at how DDD's attitude regarding the Monkey/Kirby situation is very similar to ML's, they appear happy with either lynch, wanting to stick to the one that's most likely to lead to a death. Very little reasoning from DDD on this, I think we have a smaller fish following the bigger one here.

[charter]

vote Elvis

Number of times ML mentioned Elvis the entire game - 0
Number of times Elvis mentioned ML the entire game - 1

It was in post 193, of which I agreed with about none of, and she just mentions him in passing.

MM, please look at how ML responded to my claim. Also note that "starting the Kirby wagon" is not a scumtell. And please tell me why I shouldn't say I don't think DDD is town, since he's given me no reason to think otherwise. Finally, please tell me why you are voting me.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'd urge you guys to take another look at the reasons you find people suspicious -- and focus them on the scum NK over the mislynch. Most people, by my reasoning, are going to be suspicious by link to ML.

DDD is directly linked to ML, if Charter is scummy by defending DDD then let's look at the source: DDD. I know I FoS'd Charter because I can't be certain, but I think we're looking at his claim being true and a dead scum because he's actually a PGO.

I feel like Snix isn't scum because he would've jumped on the Monkey wagon when he had a chance (L-1). I agree with Ectomancer in that Monkey is far more likely to be town since ML was riding his wagon so hard, which I can't see as distancing.

By extension, if Monkey is cleared by that, which he is in my eyes, Charter is the one who showed up and basically saved us from mislynching him, even if it did lead into another mislynch.

I think Charter is scum that was trying to build town cred. First of all, his claim is suspicious. First of all, it's a rarely used role, and second of all, it can be used to scare players from investigating him. The post that really raised my eyebrows was:

Ok, you're going to have to start trying to help yourself. I'm done defending you now, if you keep doing stuff like this, you'll probably get yourself to L-1 again. Kirby's vote is scummy too, and I'm now REALLY sure he's scum. He dismisses everything I've said with "Most of charter's case against me is bullcrap" but of course doesn't explain why or anything. He also jumps on to DDD, which I guess is the next easy target for Kirbyscum to vote.

It sounds like the fact that he is defending me makes him obvtown, or that because he claimed he should be free from attack. It really lends question to his motives. That, and the fact that Kirby ended up town after Charter insisted fairly heavily he was scum.

[Eldritch Lord]

That would be one hell of an elaborate plan for building towncred, what makes him more suspicious to me is his defense of DDD.

Elvis' interaction with ML is exactly the same as DDD's, so

FoS: Elvis

.

Still, ML very clearly states that the DDD wagon is crap without any other input.

I think it'd be a wiser move to go for DDD, considering his following of ML onto both the Monkey and Kirby wagons and that passing comment.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

316-320 really gives me an odd vibe when it comes to DDD.

Odd doesn’t possess any meaning in a game of mafia, lots of things are odd. If you think something in that section is particularly relevant to the issue of me being scum or town and not addressed by my 323 or any other post then please requite and address, but just tagging a section of posts as odd is completely worthless.

There's also a very strange absence of conversation between MacavityLock and DDD especially around page 12, where they address the same point but fail to question each other even once.

ML made a single post on page 12 and it expressed similar sentiments to what I had expressed. Why would I arbitrarily question someone acting in a fashion that made sense to me?

~~~~~~~~~~

EL, are you going to tunnel on me this entire day? Please let me know if you’re going to so that I can skip focusing on everyone else and work on just getting you lynched for your sheer worthlessness and anti-town behavior.

Players I plan to re-read in more depth based on suspicions: Elvis and Snix.

[Ectomancer]

I feel like Snix isn't scum because he would've jumped on the Monkey wagon when he had a chance (L-1). I agree with Ectomancer in that Monkey is far more likely to be town since ML was riding his wagon so hard, which I can't see as distancing.

Possibly, but I think that would be part of the distancing. I know I've certainly deliberately choose an opposite path than at least 1 of my scum buddies, even when I could have hammered town. It is better to just be patient and make sure that when the town is divided, you and your buddies are in different areas of suspicion.

I think that the strength of your argument is good enough to keep Snix from being lynched on that distancing charge though.

A thought while I'm on Eldritch Lord, I mentioned earlier that if Monkey is town, I EL is likely town. Monkey took a step closer to being town in my book with ML's flip, EL got a similiar boost as a result.

DDD has given reason to be suspicious, but I'm not certain I would call him scummy. Abrupt responses with decisive action isn't always a scum trait. Playstyle can affect it. I haven't meta'd DDD though.

ML's death last night stands out in one regard, in particular when compared with Charter's claim.

So, I said earlier that ML's death reminded me of a bomb. What it

doesn't

remind me of is a Paranoid Gun Owner. Wouldn't the death scene have said he was shot?
Now, I doubt it was scum that blew up ML, and it didn't seem to have an SK flavor either, though maybe it could have.
So, my thought is that ML targeted someone and died, and

it wasn't the claimed PGO.

Scum died, so that explosion likely came from a pro-town player. Does it make sense to have 2 players that can kill scum just by being targeted? Without some kind of mechanism to counter that, I think the very likely answer is no.

You can see where I'm leading to with this:

unvote, vote Charter

One thought: If ML targeted a bomb type role last night, then the rest of scum would likely know who he targeted, meaning there is no reason not to claim?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

ML's death last night stands out in one regard, in particular when compared with Charter's claim.

So, I said earlier that ML's death reminded me of a bomb. What it

doesn't

remind me of is a Paranoid Gun Owner. Wouldn't the death scene have said he was shot?
Now, I doubt it was scum that blew up ML, and it didn't seem to have an SK flavor either, though maybe it could have.
So, my thought is that ML targeted someone and died, and

it wasn't the claimed PGO.

Scum died, so that explosion likely came from a pro-town player. Does it make sense to have 2 players that can kill scum just by being targeted? Without some kind of mechanism to counter that, I think the very likely answer is no.

You can see where I'm leading to with this:

unvote, vote Charter

One thought: If ML targeted a bomb type role last night, then the rest of scum would likely know who he targeted, meaning there is no reason not to claim?

Your case on charter sucks, because Crazy Harry flavor would be bomb flavored.

[Eldritch Lord]

So how do we get two NKs out of all of this? If Charter is responsible, shouldn't the mafia be the only one dead, and possibly Charter?

[charter]

Well, I'm not called a paranoid gun owner in my role pm, but I kill people that target me at night, so I made the connection. And yeah, if you look at Crazy Harry, he quite clearly uses bombs and stuff.

TRY AGAIN ECTO.

[Ectomancer]

ML's death last night stands out in one regard, in particular when compared with Charter's claim.

So, I said earlier that ML's death reminded me of a bomb. What it

doesn't

remind me of is a Paranoid Gun Owner. Wouldn't the death scene have said he was shot?
Now, I doubt it was scum that blew up ML, and it didn't seem to have an SK flavor either, though maybe it could have.
So, my thought is that ML targeted someone and died, and

it wasn't the claimed PGO.

Scum died, so that explosion likely came from a pro-town player. Does it make sense to have 2 players that can kill scum just by being targeted? Without some kind of mechanism to counter that, I think the very likely answer is no.

You can see where I'm leading to with this:

unvote, vote Charter

One thought: If ML targeted a bomb type role last night, then the rest of scum would likely know who he targeted, meaning there is no reason not to claim?

Your case on charter sucks, because Crazy Harry flavor would be bomb flavored.

Nice link. I didn't recall his schtick.

unvote

I think we roll with a confirmed Charter from this point.

vote Snix

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

So how do we get two NKs out of all of this? If Charter is responsible, shouldn't the mafia be the only one dead, and possibly Charter?

Possibility 1) SK/Vig-Charter killed ML, Scum killed SL/K
Possibility 2) Scum tried to kill PGO-charter and blew up on him instead, Vig or SK killed SL/K
Possibility 3) Vig/SK killed ML, Scum killed SL/K, No one targets PGO-Charter

Those look like the three reasonable possibilities to me, I think 3 is least likely because it strikes me as unlikely that we have two separate ways people can die with bomb flavor.