Mini 855: Colorless Rainbow Town (Halted for list mod error)

[ZEEnon]

It seems my overview is taking longer than expected. I'll attempt to have it ready for tomorrow.

[Scien]

First off forgive me if any of my concerns were answered while I am catching up. The below is my thoughts as I catch up:

I was saying Manz was jumping on MM. Your arguement makes no sense. Didn't they vote each other and argue the last 4 pages? This whole 'single specific instance' is BS.

I had to look back because I didn't remember where he set the vote. But it looks like it was page 4 post 83. I think its a bit of a misrepresentation for you to say in post 123 that they voted before the huge argument. Not sure if it means anything though.

I'm also suspicious of [D3x] and Manz for making up cases on people out of thin air right after and in the RVS.

I would like to see this. Can you quote the posts that you are concerned with?

Adding to this is the fact that Manz didn't Vote MM until after [Raivann's] comments, so please don't try using that to justify your comments in hindsight.

Oh! That's why I was a bit concerned at Raivann's first quote. You did say that Manz jumped on Monkey. But this entire thing started from a Manz question that didn't seem to "jump on" Monkey to my eyes. You don't think so? Which posts do you think count as the most extream examples of jumping on? Why did you think that they voted immediately and then fought afterwards? When you realize that Manz didn't vote right away, what is your take on the lateness of his vote? Positive in your eyes or negative? I could see reasons for either, but why would you say it is positive or negative for the lateness of his vote?

FoS:Raivann and an UnVote for posterity's sake.

Eh? Why not the full vote. If your unvote was because of RVS... why not place your vote on your suspicion? (I understand this is hypocritical of me to ask, but I want to see your mind). BTW I'm kind of surprised no one has called me out for a non RVS vote yet.

Fuzzyman has posted twice with a total of 28 words. How can [Raivann] possibly have a town read from what he's said?

Ditto.

Yeah, he has only 2 posts but both his posts were confident and to the point and on those points, I agree. Notice I didn't say prob or confirmed, i said leaning. Gut read. Why you even trippin?

Hmm. So, confidence is a townish read to you? Other than that the rest kind of make sense. Although I do have a bit of a question about one of the quotes you gave of Fuzzy's:

So what you're doing is expressing a dislike for him without a willingness to take responsibility for his lynch. [votes for Zee for non-voting]

So. Fuzzy just voted for Zee because of one action. Similiar in my eyes to the way that dx3 FoSed you for one action of not explaining a concern. What makes one person "come up with a case out of thin air" and the other have a position that you think is townish? Just the fact that one was targeting you?

Happy birthday. I explained this in post 142.

Thanks! As for your 142:

The problem with the question you asked is that instead of specifying your question to say 'mafia roles', you generalized and made it just 'roles', which also infers that he is rolefishing. So you put his post in a negative light, perhaps on purpose, perhaps unknowingly.

Yes, that is part of the issue of this whole mess I agree. He did generalize, and it will be hard to tell if this was intentional or unintentional at this point I agree. However I believe this post makes it sound like you were certain one way or the other, and I would like to ask you if that is the case:

I think his intentions were clearly to incriminate me.

This was my thought too while I read that post of his.

I fully realized this while I wrote that. Although I feel the argument could potentially be town vs. town, Manzcar is in actuality my top suspect. I'm not sure if that makes sense to you.

What you are saying now makes sense. However again, when you said it originally it sounded different than what you are saying now:

Reading through some more of their back-and-forth posts, I currently see the MonkeyMan576 and Manzcar argument as town vs. town, with MonkeyMan576 leaning the more likely town.

Not trying to give you too much of an out, but this might be because I am putting too much meaning into town-vs-town. What do you mean by that term. I am having an issue about how you can think an argument is town-vs-town, and have one of those 'town' be your cheif suspect.

[Stuff about the lack of a vote on Manz]

Fair.

[On Zee's color flavor]That is so annoying to try to read.

Heh, I thought about doing the same thing... I was going to claim a color at start and use it as flavor. Decided against it though because I am a stick in the mud. I was so going to be Mr. Green.

---

In light of current game state, and due to the fact that my vote is still RVS, I am going to want to revote:

Unvote: d3x

Vote: Raivann

I believe that vote is the fourth (L-3) judging from last vote count.

The town read is suspicious (even if I am dittoing everyone).
The jumping on d3x while feeling Fuzzy pro-town is suspicious.
The mistake about Manz vote placement, is curious.
The unexplained first dx3 "scummy post", is curious.

[d3x]

Why not the full vote.

Well, as you can see from my p136, I have since upgraded and Voted him. That's not what you asked, though.

I did not Vote at first because he could've said something completely reasonable and alleviated the vast majority of my concern. As he did not do that and continued to act scummy, imho, I Voted him when I felt I had a solid read on him.

I'm not a huge fan of Voting around. Given certain context, I actually see that as a Scum Tell. I like to have a suspect and Vote that suspect once I have a good read on them.

I'm kind of surprised no one has called me out for a non RVS vote yet.

Why should we? I personally don't think it's a bad thing to not have a Vote down at all times. I believe that especially in the early parts of the Day, it can be helpful to sit back and view the cases before committing to one*. While I understand that the Vote isn't permanent, I feel that the power of your Vote diminishes the more you throw it around. If you're bouncing around Voting everyone, you are ultimately pressuring no one.

*Disclaimer- I am not refering to lurking, active lurking, being inactive, or not helping. I am saying that you can watch, follow along, and participate productively in building cases without needing to Vote.

[Fuzzyman]

@Fuzzy- What do you think of Raivann's read on you?

Right conclusion, but yeah, I've no clue how he's come to it.

Raivann, I'd also like to see the first scummy post from d3x.

[MonkeyMan576]

I don't want to be the level 1 vote, and since I already FOS'd him(for avoiding questions, and for calling someone pro-town after only 2 posts, if anything the lack of posting is lurking, and anti-town), I'll

Vote: Raivann

[Dizzle]

I don't disagree with your p173, but I do wonder if your feeling is so hardline now, what exactly were you looking for when you said...

I look forward to hearing Raivann's reasoning.

Yes, my mind was pretty much made up that there could be no rational reason to consider Fuzzy leaning town at that point, but I was giving Raivann the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he had a legitimate explanation that no one had thought of or maybe he would just dig himself into a further hole (which he did). I would vote Raivann right now but I am a little worried that this lynch is progressing so rapidly.

I don't want to be the level 1 vote

Is level one the same as L-1? If so, why would you not want to be the last vote?

[Chinaman]

Yes, believe it or not MM & d3x, I can read and process information.

Okay, this is dodging at it's finest...

FOS: Raivann

No no no, this is sarcasm at it's finest. Sorry, had to post this, cracked me up.

Anyway, hi, I'm Sweep's replacement and I am about halfway through catching up. I will post on what I have read up until now though.

So far I have a pretty much null read on everyone. I honestly believe that the argument between MM and Manz was town vs town. I got the feeling there were exaggerations in both arguments and it is my opinion that scum would tend to avoid a huge confrontation like that at the very beginning of a game. I of course could be totally wrong here, but if either one were scum, they put themselves in the spotlight far too much with their back and forth. What I will be doing when I go back through is looking for those who tried to fuel the fire without jumping in too hard themselves. Anyway, that's all I got thus far and I hope to catch up soon.

[Chinaman]

Holy crap, sorry MOD if I just stepped on your toes there. I should have waited for you to confirm in thread that I was replacing Sweep. I will keep quiet till you do. Again, sorry bout that.

[MonkeySudo]

I don't disagree with your p173, but I do wonder if your feeling is so hardline now, what exactly were you looking for when you said...

I look forward to hearing Raivann's reasoning.

Yes, my mind was pretty much made up that there could be no rational reason to consider Fuzzy leaning town at that point, but I was giving Raivann the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he had a legitimate explanation that no one had thought of or maybe he would just dig himself into a further hole (which he did). I would vote Raivann right now but I am a little worried that this lynch is progressing so rapidly.

I don't want to be the level 1 vote

Is level one the same as L-1? If so, why would you not want to be the last vote?

I don't want scum to have the opportunity to hammer before we discuss if we actually want to hammer.

[MonkeyMan576]

Sorry, alt.

[Josh Lyman]

MOD NOTE: Chinaman has replaced Sweep effective ... about

two

four posts ago.

Vote count and minor replacement housekeeping in the morning, as my phone sucks.

[cruelty]

Cruelty wrote:
[On Zee's color flavor]That is so annoying to try to read.

Heh, I thought about doing the same thing... I was going to claim a color at start and use it as flavor. Decided against it though because I am a stick in the mud. I was so going to be Mr. Green.

It's not the colour, no probs with that as long as I can read it, but the 15 (or whatever) posts in a row. It just means that a few sentences take up almost an entire page.

[Dizzle]

I don't want scum to have the opportunity to hammer before we discuss if we actually want to hammer.

If that's the case, then why did you just put Raivann at L-2? I feel like I'm missing something here, please enlighten me.

[cruelty]

cruelty is aware that he is hypocritically making consecutive posts.

I would vote Raivann right now but I am a little worried that this lynch is progressing so rapidly.

Agreed. I just wanted to post to make this clear.

[d3x]

cruelty- Aside from telling us about things that annoy you {and have little game relevence}, how's about answering p168? Or commenting on the speed with which the Raivann wagon has built to L-2? Or stating an opinion of MM's reluctance to go L-1, but has no problem with L-2?

MM- Dizzle makes a great point. You went L-2 without batting an eye. There are more than one Scum in this setup, I'd assume. How does your play act as a deterent from an early Scum Hammer? It seems like you want to participate on a lynch without taking the responsibility of your actions. Also, if you just Voted him to L-2, why are you heavily entertaining the notion that Scum will Hammer? Doesn't that mean you think Raivann has at least a better than average chance of being Town aligned?

[d3x]

Or commenting on the speed with which the Raivann wagon has built to L-2?

Ninja'd. Still the other points are valid.

[MonkeyMan576]

cruelty- Aside from telling us about things that annoy you {and have little game relevence}, how's about answering p168? Or commenting on the speed with which the Raivann wagon has built to L-2? Or stating an opinion of MM's reluctance to go L-1, but has no problem with L-2?

MM- Dizzle makes a great point. You went L-2 without batting an eye. There are more than one Scum in this setup, I'd assume. How does your play act as a deterent from an early Scum Hammer? It seems like you want to participate on a lynch without taking the responsibility of your actions. Also, if you just Voted him to L-2, why are you heavily entertaining the notion that Scum will Hammer? Doesn't that mean you think Raivann has at least a better than average chance of being Town aligned?

I wouldn't say I didn't bat an eye. I thought about it carefully. I have no problem taking accountability for my actions, I just don't want to give the scum opportunity to lynch without discussing it, and I've already voiced my suspiciouns of Raivann, so I figure I might as well be on the wagon. I am leaning scum on Raivann, although I still think Manczar is very scummy. Not sure which is more scummy though.

[d3x]

I wouldn't say I didn't bat an eye. I thought about it carefully.

Touche. We can only see what you write and the brevity with which it's delivered. I was just saying that it's odd that you'd be willing to go L-2 but would actually voice a negative opinion about L-1 in the same post. That's all.

I just don't want to give the scum opportunity to lynch without discussing it

Given my statement regarding this in my previous post to you, what are you thoughts?

I am leaning scum on Raivann

Do you think that if Raivann is Scum, his partners would Hammer him early to stifle discussion and in essence silence him?

[MonkeyMan576]

I wouldn't say I didn't bat an eye. I thought about it carefully.

Touche. We can only see what you write and the brevity with which it's delivered. I was just saying that it's odd that you'd be willing to go L-2 but would actually voice a negative opinion about L-1 in the same post. That's all.

I don't think it's odd, it was more of a warning to anyone who votes next to consider that the next vote will be L-1. If they want to do that fine, but there is a big difference between L-2 vote and a L-1 vote, and I don't think we are ready for L-1 yet. I would still like there to be more discussion, but it is important for Raivann to understand the severety of our suspicions.

I am leaning scum on Raivann

Do you think that if Raivann is Scum, his partners would Hammer him early to stifle discussion and in essence silence him?[/quote]

It's possible, but it is also possible Raivann is town, and I'd prefer not to give scum the opportunity to hammer quite yet.

[d3x]

MM-You say that you want more discussion and that you want Raivann to understand the gravity of the situation. You also say that you wouldn't rule out a Town flip on him. These are understandable points. Do you not have any questions for him so as to make a more secure decision on the player you just L-2 Voted? I

also

find that odd.

There are more than one Scum in this setup, I'd assume. How does your play act as a deterent from an early Scum Hammer?

Third times a charm. Considering you called out Raivann for dodging earlier, I find it doubly interesting that you've not answered this the other 2 times I've asked you. Please do so now.

[Chinaman]

alright, I have been announced officially now and have read through this game once so far....I now have headache. Some is due to the back and forth which seems to have occurred rapidly, and the other is due to the damned yellow and pink colors used by ZEE. I don't mind highlighting the tread and all, but just looking at the color gives me a headache. You do not have to do anything I ask Zee, but pretty please with a cherry on top, stop using the yellow. I'm begging you man. On my proverbial knees and everything.

Anyway, like I said, I made it through and am pretty much current. Not being involved in the first 7 pages of discussion, it's hard to get as good a read on anyone as of yet. I am going to re-read, and come back with some questions and comments. My predecessor made one post and that was an RVS vote on the now current bandwagon. I do not yet know how I feel about him, but I have read some good points made by you all about some scummy things he's doing. In my first read through, I had to agree with most of the points on him, but as I haven't had a chance to ask him any questions or come up with a solid argument for why I am on the wagon, I must

UNVOTE

till I feel that the vote on him is from me and not left over from Sweep.

[MonkeyMan576]

MM-You say that you want more discussion and that you want Raivann to understand the gravity of the situation. You also say that you wouldn't rule out a Town flip on him. These are understandable points. Do you not have any questions for him so as to make a more secure decision on the player you just L-2 Voted? I

also

find that odd.

Well, he's been dodging the questions I've already asked him so I figured others might have more success than me. Probably more frustration than anything. But I have some questions below.

Re: Avoiding an early scum hammer, I'd rather have a L-2 be made by someone that knows what they're doing and warns of L-1 rather than someone that does it accidentally or who is scum doing it on purpose.

For Raivann:

1. Has your opinion on d3x changed since you fingered him earlier?

2. Why are you so hesitant to summarize the manczar case? D3x correctly stated that it was supicious that you voted without any real explanation of understanding the case against him.

3. Do you think it is more likely that scum would hammer you at L-1 or that an overzealous town would(if you are town).


5. Who are your top 3 scum suspects at this point. And who do you think are the top 3 towniest players?

6. If you were to be lynched, and flipped town, who do you think would be the most suspicious?

[MonkeyMan576]

Sorry about skipping 4... number dislexia I guess.

[cruelty]

@cruelty- You've said that RoleFishing Scum PRs is dangerous, how advantageous do you think it is? Do you believe the risk is worth the reward?

Sorry didn't see this.

To be honest I think attempting to rolefish scum on day one is pointless; town has no way to establish fact (eg: a town night action being blocked would give a town power role an idea of what's out there) so any conclusions arrived at are merely speculation.

If somehow you manage to establish that there is role X out there then of course it's advantageous to some degree, but I'd be hesitant to engage in a debate about mafia power roles to begin with; I've outlined my reasons for this in a previous post.

commenting on the speed with which the Raivann wagon has built to L-2? Or stating an opinion of MM's reluctance to go L-1, but has no problem with L-2?

I'm prepared to vote for him (Raivann), but I'll hold off in the interest of discussion.

I can see what MM is saying. If there are two (or more) scum, and Raivann isn't one of them (or he is and they've decided he's a liability) then they can hardly 1-2 hammer without some serious heat being fired their way. L1 is a different proposition, one guy with a convincing reason for his vote could hammer and slip away quite easily.

[Dizzle]

I can see what MM is saying. If there are two (or more) scum, and Raivann isn't one of them (or he is and they've decided he's a liability) then they can hardly 1-2 hammer without some serious heat being fired their way. L1 is a different proposition, one guy with a convincing reason for his vote could hammer and slip away quite easily.

Sure, I guess, but if you're worried about scum being able to hammer at L-1, why even bring the vote count 1 step closer by making it L-2? Why not just give the warning about not lynching or getting to L-1 too quickly? Raivann knows he's amassed a good deal of suspicion so there's really no need for Monkey's vote at all. Raivann is back to L-3 now anyway, I think, but I still don't like Monkey's vote/explanation.