Mini 855: Colorless Rainbow Town (Halted for list mod error)

MonkeyMan576 · Post Post #200 (ISO) » Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:11 pm

Dizzle wrote:
cruelty wrote:I can see what MM is saying. If there are two (or more) scum, and Raivann isn't one of them (or he is and they've decided he's a liability) then they can hardly 1-2 hammer without some serious heat being fired their way. L1 is a different proposition, one guy with a convincing reason for his vote could hammer and slip away quite easily.
Sure, I guess, but if you're worried about scum being able to hammer at L-1, why even bring the vote count 1 step closer by making it L-2? Why not just give the warning about not lynching or getting to L-1 too quickly? Raivann knows he's amassed a good deal of suspicion so there's really no need for Monkey's vote at all. Raivann is back to L-3 now anyway, I think, but I still don't like Monkey's vote/explanation.

I've already explained I want my vote to be on the record, I'm guessing scum on Raivann at this point and to not vote would be anti-town. I think there's a good chance Raivann could eventually be lynched and I'd rather vote now than give scum the opportunity to vote at L-1. If people have a problem with my vote, I'll unvote if they are worried about a scum lynch.

Dizzle · Post Post #201 (ISO) » Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:17 pm

I'm not worried about a scum lynch, especially at L-3. I am worried that you want your vote to be on the record.

MonkeyMan576 · Post Post #202 (ISO) » Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:19 pm

Dizzle wrote:I'm not worried about a scum lynch, especially at L-3. I am worried that you want your vote to be on the record.

Why would I not want my vote to be on the record if I think he's scum?

Dizzle · Post Post #203 (ISO) » Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:25 pm

Yes, a good townie wants to vote out scum but he ultimately shouldn't care whether he is the one doing the voting. All that matters is that scum are lynched. On the other hand, scum who want to give the appearance of being good townies will vote each other out to gain townie points.

MonkeyMan576 · Post Post #204 (ISO) » Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:28 pm

Dizzle wrote:Yes, a good townie wants to vote out scum but he ultimately shouldn't care whether he is the one doing the voting. All that matters is that scum are lynched. On the other hand, scum who want to give the appearance of being good townies will vote each other out to gain townie points.

I really don't see what the point in withholding my vote would be if I believe there is a strong case against him. Are you suggesting I don't vote for him so I don't look like I'm trying to build town cred?

cruelty · Post Post #205 (ISO) » Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:49 pm

Dizzle wrote: Sure, I guess, but if you're worried about scum being able to hammer at L-1, why even bring the vote count 1 step closer by making it L-2? Why not just give the warning about not lynching or getting to L-1 too quickly? Raivann knows he's amassed a good deal of suspicion so there's really no need for Monkey's vote at all. Raivann is back to L-3 now anyway, I think, but I still don't like Monkey's vote/explanation.

I feel like you guys are exaggerating the importance of the comment.

I don't think there's anything wrong with being concerned about a possibly scum hammer. It says that he's not 100% convinced in his vote, but that's not really here nor there - this early in the game, who is?

Manzcar · Post Post #206 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:16 am

MOD - Due to real life personal issues that have arisen I am unable to play for a while therefor I need to be replaced. Sorry for any problems that this causes.

Scien · Post Post #207 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:17 am

Monkey wrote:[At Raivann] Who are your top 3 scum suspects at this point. And who do you think are the top 3 towniest players?

Why ask about the townies? Who do you think it serves more to tell the town about your townie feelings?

MonkeyMan576 · Post Post #208 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:46 am

Scien wrote:
Monkey wrote:[At Raivann] Who are your top 3 scum suspects at this point. And who do you think are the top 3 towniest players?
Why ask about the townies? Who do you think it serves more to tell the town about your townie feelings?

I think any info is good for the town. Why do you think info is bad for the town?

d3x · Post Post #209 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:56 am

MM wrote:Why do you think info is bad for the town?

If you're askling a single player, I see less harm in this than otherwise. If you're asking everyone, then it's pretty dangerous, imo. You can ultimately set the Town up for some pretty ugly things down the line, regardless of your intentions. If we all weigh in with our Top 3 Town list, we're handing the Scum an NK shopping list. If there are mostly accepted proTownies on each others' lists, then the Scum have a great opportunity to setup a cherrypicked End Game scenario.

For an example on that last point, say that pretty much everyone thinks players A and B are proTown. Player A has some suspicion towards B and visa-versa. The Scum will see that and try to play it up, leaving the 2 of them in the game longer so that in the End Game scenario, they are going to go after each other. I know that this isn't going to happen every time, but it

does

happen.

Dizzle · Post Post #210 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:10 am

MonkeyMan576 wrote:I really don't see what the point in withholding my vote would be if I believe there is a strong case against him. Are you suggesting I don't vote for him so I don't look like I'm trying to build town cred?

I suggest that you don't publicly state that one of the reasons you're voting for him is to build townie cred. But cruelty is correct, while they still don't sit well with me, I'm probably exaggerating the significance of your comments.

Dizzle · Post Post #211 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:14 am

On d3x's point, to be fair to Monkey, he only asked for one player's top townies, not everyone's. However, for an experienced player such as Monkey to not be able to conceive how info could possibly be bad for the town is worrisome. Yes, info is generally good for the town but I'm sure Monkey could think up a few instances in which it might not be.

d3x · Post Post #212 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:16 am

Dizzle wrote:I suggest that you don't publicly state that one of the reasons you're voting for him is to build townie cred.

+1

to be fair to Monkey, he only asked for one player's top townies

I'm well aware. That's why I said this...

I wrote:If you're askling a single player, I see less harm in this than otherwise. If you're asking everyone, then it's pretty dangerous, imo.

Dizzle · Post Post #213 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:19 am

I knew you were well aware, just making sure that Monkey knew that I was well aware as well. Hopefully everyone is well aware now.

d3x · Post Post #214 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:23 am

Chinaman · Post Post #215 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:27 am

MM wrote:I've already explained I want my vote to be on the record, I'm guessing scum on Raivann at this point and to not vote would be anti-town. I think there's a good chance Raivann could eventually be lynched and I'd rather vote now than give scum the opportunity to vote at L-1. If people have a problem with my vote, I'll unvote if they are worried about a scum lynch.

So does that mean if a scum gets lynched and there are 3 people on on the wagon, are those 3 people your next top suspects since them not being on the wagon is "anti-town"? Also, I don't like that you are worried about what other people think of your vote. It's not the vote people were attacking...it's you basically holding up a big neon sign saying "Hey guys, for the record, I voted for scum!!" That's what is bothering people including myself. The fact that you want to "make others happy" by removing your vote if they say to do so also bothers me. If you think he's scum, who cares what others think about your vote? It's supposed to be your opinion. If it bites you in the ass later, well, it bites you in the ass. Only scum truely care about how they look in others eyes. Town care about finding and lynching scum. So yeah, the above questions to be answered please.

MonkeyMan576 · Post Post #216 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:33 am

Chinaman wrote:
MM wrote:I've already explained I want my vote to be on the record, I'm guessing scum on Raivann at this point and to not vote would be anti-town. I think there's a good chance Raivann could eventually be lynched and I'd rather vote now than give scum the opportunity to vote at L-1. If people have a problem with my vote, I'll unvote if they are worried about a scum lynch.
So does that mean if a scum gets lynched and there are 3 people on on the wagon, are those 3 people your next top suspects since them not being on the wagon is "anti-town"? Also, I don't like that you are worried about what other people think of your vote. It's not the vote people were attacking...it's you basically holding up a big neon sign saying "Hey guys, for the record, I voted for scum!!" That's what is bothering people including myself. The fact that you want to "make others happy" by removing your vote if they say to do so also bothers me. If you think he's scum, who cares what others think about your vote? It's supposed to be your opinion. If it bites you in the ass later, well, it bites you in the ass. Only scum truely care about how they look in others eyes. Town care about finding and lynching scum. So yeah, the above questions to be answered please.

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not voting because I'm worried about what people think about my vote. I'm voting because I believe he's scum.

Josh Lyman · Post Post #217 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:45 am

I'm well aware that we need a....

VOTE COUNT

Raivann: 4

d3x (136), ZEEnon (150), Scien (176), MonkeyMan576 (179)

ZEEnon: 1

Fuzzyman (100)

Hero764: 1

jasonT1981 (4)

d3x: 1

Raivann (123)

Not voting: cruelty, Dizzle, Hero764, Manzcar, Chinaman (Sweep)

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Seeking a replacement for

Manzcar.

I've stopped posting all the historical votes and unvotes. If there's a consensus that you'd like to go back to that, let me know; it seemed more confusing than helpful.

Raivann · Post Post #218 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:51 am

Dizzle wrote:I agree with cruelty here, proclaiming Fuzzy as leaning town seems premature given his, and the general, lack of posts. I look forward to hearing Raivann's reasoning.

Voting me for giving a town read on someone? Giving town reads on players is protown and my scumdar is operating at maximum effectiveness.

d3x · Post Post #219 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:10 am

Raivann wrote:Voting me for giving a town read on someone?

Are either Dizzle or cruelty Voting you? Did I miss that? The Vote Count seems to disagree with your sentiment.

Dizzle · Post Post #220 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:53 am

Raivann wrote:
Dizzle wrote:I agree with cruelty here, proclaiming Fuzzy as leaning town seems premature given his, and the general, lack of posts. I look forward to hearing Raivann's reasoning.
Voting me for giving a town read on someone? Giving town reads on players is protown and my scumdar is operating at maximum effectiveness.

Yeah, not sure what this is all about as neither I nor cruelty have voted for you. It seems that your scumdar is in need of repair.

Also, do you have any other thoughts on the discussion since you last checked in?

d3x · Post Post #221 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:56 am

@Mod

and all- Please note the sig. I'll be in Arizona for a friend's wedding from Thursday until the following Monday.

d3x · Post Post #222 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:25 am

Also, Mod- I just noticed that Hero hasn't posted a single time in thread. Can we get a prod/replacement/status update on him, please?

@Fuzzy- Are you waiting for something to happen?

Josh Lyman · Post Post #223 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:29 am

MOD NOTE: Hero764 has been prodded.

Scien · Post Post #224 (ISO) » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:38 am

Scien wrote:Why ask about the townies? Who do you think it serves more to tell the town about your townie feelings?

Monkey wrote:I think any info is good for the town. Why do you think info is bad for the town?

LAWL. Wasn't your fight earlier today about generalizations? I didn't say information was bad for town. Moreover I don't think this specific kind of info is totally bad for the town. I think that certain information tends to help scum more than townies however.

One of these types of information is town rankings.

Think of it this way. I say A B and C are townish in my book. What does the town gain from that? They know that I am likely to not question them as hard... they know that I might be buddying them... they know that I might be nodding to my partner if I am scum. But all of these are rather weak.

What does a scum gain with the same information? They know the person saying it is town. They have info about where that guy is going to be pressuring over the next few days. They can target townies that don't have scum on their lists. The townies that have nothing but scum on their lists are going to be their best town assets to let live. Effectively giving the scum easy information about how to confuse the town the most.

I argue that asking for peoples townish feelings is more beneficial to scum than town. Hence my question.

d3x wrote:If you're asking everyone, then it's pretty dangerous, imo. You can ultimately set the Town up for some pretty ugly things down the line, regardless of your intentions. If we all weigh in with our Top 3 Town list, we're handing the Scum an NK shopping list. If there are mostly accepted proTownies on each others' lists, then the Scum have a great opportunity to setup a cherrypicked End Game scenario.

Yep. This.

So let me ask you in a different way Monkey. Do you see what I am saying? What information did you hope to gain from Raivann by asking who he thought was town? How do you think it would benefit town?

Raivann wrote:Giving town reads on players is protown and my scumdar is operating at maximum effectiveness.

One, there are other points against you, and your brevity is not helping.

Two, how the heck is giving town reads on players protown?

Anyone can do it. Also scum committing to lying saying they have scum tells on someone is typically more dangerous for them to do than telling us they have town tells on people... its easy to find new 'scummy' stuff to change the scum's mind later and pursue a townie they said was town earlier...

However irritating a townie by weakly pursuing them earlier using 'scum tells' is going to catch them attention, from the very least their target.

I don't get why you think that giving town reads is protown... How so?