Newbie 841 - Game over!

[Tororingu-chan]

EBWOP: "defending" should be "defenders" ^_^

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Final Day 1 Vote Count

RayFrost - 5 (Tororingu-chan, PaltryExcuse, DeathNote, Albert B. Rampage, havingfitz)

havingfitz - 2 (Pablo Molinero, MiteyMouse)
Pablo Molinero - 1 (RayFrost)

Not Voting - 1 (ronnieroo)

5 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Thursday, October 1.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Ray's final arguments are not enough to save him from the noose. Hopefully the remaining members of the Council can root out the Mafia and avenge his death.

RayFrost,

Townie

, lynched Day 1

Night has begun. Those of you with night actions must submit your choices before October 2.

I will get the game opened ASAP, hopefully before I pack up the computer on Friday morning.

Mafia and any Town PRs are encouraged to get their night choices in sooner rather than later so that you don't have to wait until next week for the game to restart.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

MiteyMouse takes one for the team, spilling her blood across the polished marble floor of the Council chambers. Hopefully her death can be avenged!

MiteyMouse,

Townie

, killed Night 1

Day 2 has begun. With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Deadline is the end of Wednesday, October 21.

[MiteyMouse]

Have fun and play nice guys! See you at the after party!

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

NOTE: I am going offline starting Thursday, October 1 until further notice for a move down to North Carolina. If anything happens between now and then, please be patient and I am going to try to get back by the 5th at the latest.

[DeathNote]

So... thoughts? What do you think of Mitey being killed Ronnie? Why not someone else?

[ronnieroo]

So... thoughts? What do you think of Mitey being killed Ronnie? Why not someone else?

Well, it's a town loss. Better then the death of a Power role (if we even have any). Why not someone else? How should I know? Ok, I'm guessing that you are suspcious of me and are looking for a slip, so, why are you suspcious? If you have some other reason for singling me out with what is generally a broad question, please let me know.

[DeathNote]

If I was suspicious of you, I would say so. I am just wanting your opinion as you didn't vote for anyone. To me, this seems like you want to stay out of the light and added with your lack of judgment last day phase, I was interested in what you had to say.

[Tororingu-chan]

Hmm~ gonna reread~ ^_^;

[Albert B. Rampage]

Ah crap. You guys been here since the beginning, who do you think is scum? I'm gonna sit back for a while and go "hmm..yes...interesting. indeed."

[Pablo Molinero]

havingfitz havingfitz havingfitz havingfitz havingfitz.

Huge surprise there. The way he handled the last week before dropping the hammer was incredibly scummy. Hopefully I'll find a break in homework (which I'm currently doing) sometime this week to give a longer post why and drop my vote on him.

[PaltryExcuse]

Alrighty, I did a quick re-read, so now I got a few questions:

@ABR: I'd think you'd have the most broad perspective considering you came into this game later. Are your suspicions on ronnie still worth the vote you threw at him Day 1 and why?

@DeathNote: You posted once that you were watching Pablo, and later pursued Pablo on his argument against fitz. Are you still 'watching' fitz or has any of that changed into a more definite suspicion and why?

@Havingfitz: You put a vote on OMG to make him L-1, and encouraged others to vote before replacements (considering your distaste for them). Why was it once Ray 'arrived' the time to wait for OMG/Ray a chance to talk?

@Pablo: When you switched your vote to fitz, it was upon his voting OMG and the fact that the vote put OMG at L-1. Were your suspicions of OMG gone? If not, were you going to hammer Ray? If yes, what cleared OMG?

@Ronnieroo: You seemed to suspect Pablo (accusing him of a WIFOMy argument) on the first day, and you defended anyone else who you talked about. Are your suspicions still pointed at Pablo and if not what changed your mind?

@T-chan: ABR claimed you were tunnel-visioned towards OMG, I never saw a response to that claim. What do you think of that assessment?

[havingfitz]

That sucked. Two of my top three suspects turn out to be town. Obviously any gut feel/intuition I've got needs re-adjusted.

havingfitz havingfitz havingfitz havingfitz havingfitz.
Huge surprise there. The way he handled the last week before dropping the hammer was incredibly scummy. Hopefully I'll find a break in homework (which I'm currently doing) sometime this week to give a longer post why and drop my vote on him.

Pablo...your gameplay is not what I would have expected from an IC:

- You have had limited involvement...fewest posts of anyone left in the game..even ABR (and RayFrost before he was lynched!).
- You have repeated the same mantra over (post 142) and over (post 165) and over (post 236) [i.e. Fitz' actions towards OMG and L-1, and hammer vote are suspicious] while ignoring my explanation of my activities.
- You have been hypocritical...taking one position and then denouncing others when they follow suite/recommendation (posts 70, 91, 104, 110), and
- You ignore questions (posts 148 & 171).

In summary...You are lying low, avoiding any input of value, and ignoring questions to you and defenses to your repeated/repetitive allegations. All of these points are based on fact and I find your actions scummy.

Vote: Pablo Marinero

That said...I now need to take a closer look at everyone else as my suspicions towards OMG and MM were wrong. At least my odds of hitting scum have improved. From 1:4 to 1:3.

@Havingfitz: You put a vote on OMG to make him L-1, and encouraged others to vote before replacements (considering your distaste for them). Why was it once Ray 'arrived' the time to wait for OMG/Ray a chance to talk?

Please see post 171. I basically answer the same line of questioning from Pablo.

[DeathNote]

@DeathNote: You posted once that you were watching Pablo, and later pursued Pablo on his argument against fitz. Are you still 'watching' fitz or has any of that changed into a more definite suspicion and why?

I am assuming you meant to say, "am I still watching Pablo" and not fitz. I still have my doubts on Pablo's actions but the way that other zone in on him makes me cautious to apply pressure. Not to mention, he hasn't posted anything much of merit recently that I may work with.

[PaltryExcuse]

I am assuming you meant to say, "am I still watching Pablo" and not fitz.

Hah, yah. Typo.

@Havingfitz: You put a vote on OMG to make him L-1, and encouraged others to vote before replacements (considering your distaste for them). Why was it once Ray 'arrived' the time to wait for OMG/Ray a chance to talk?

Please see post 171. I basically answer the same line of questioning from Pablo.

Which was:

I was gung ho until the vote on OMG went from L-1 to L-2 and the town consensus seemed to favor waiting.

That doesn't make your intentions clear at all for me. If the town doesn't want him lynched, they'll respond in kind. It seems to me as though you shied away from attack and hid behind 'what the town wants'. From what I understand, it was the 'what the town wanted' that convinced you.

On a sidenote to both DN & fitz, Pablo has mentioned his workload increasing since school has restarted. Probable explanation for his decreased posting. But other than that, I'm gonna give the case on Pablo a second look.

[havingfitz]

@Havingfitz: You put a vote on OMG to make him L-1, and encouraged others to vote before replacements (considering your distaste for them). Why was it once Ray 'arrived' the time to wait for OMG/Ray a chance to talk?

Please see post 171. I basically answer the same line of questioning from Pablo.

Which was:

I was gung ho until the vote on OMG went from L-1 to L-2 and the town consensus seemed to favor waiting.

That doesn't make your intentions clear at all for me. If the town doesn't want him lynched, they'll respond in kind. It seems to me as though you shied away from attack and hid behind 'what the town wants'. From what I understand, it was the 'what the town wanted' that convinced you.

I expanded further in post 171 here:

On a serious note, now that OMG has been replaced...

Unvote RayFrost

and

FoS RayFrost

.

I stand by my earlier comments regarding a replacement for someone I had the bulk of my suspicions aimed at but

now that the replacement has taken place I'm resigned/willing to hear what a more active experienced player can make of what OMG started.

I do not have anything against RayFrost and have shelved my impatience...though I still am suspicious of his position (thanks to OMG's fine work) and look forward to hearing from him as well.

I wasn't shying away...when the votes for OMG were getting fewer I was basically resigned to the fact he wasn't going anywhere (at least before a replacement was made) and once that replacement

was

made, it was only common courtesy to let the replacement have their say.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I think one of havingfitz and Pablo Molinero are scum. Which one would you guys side with based on what we have so far? I'm having trouble deciding.

[PaltryExcuse]

I think one of havingfitz and Pablo Molinero are scum. Which one would you guys side with based on what we have so far? I'm having trouble deciding.

It's definitely looking that way, with Pablo building a case on Fitz, and vice versa. However, the thought that we might have one scum cornered, brings to mind that there still is another around.

To answer your question though, I'm a little hesitant to get rid of Fitz at this point as he has become much more active in comparison to the busy Pablo. However, I haven't seen Pablo's case on Fitz, so it may change my mind. Fitz's case on Pablo, on the other hand, is more an attack on inactivity and a lack of progression in Pablo's arguments. If Pablo was active in many other games, I could see this case having a little more backbone. Fitz's defense looks logical enough to me that I can't pinpoint him. I'm not really convinced on either front enough yet to vote.

My thoughts on Fitz may change if I am convinced by Pablo's argument, while my thoughts on Pablo are waiting on how he goes at Fitz as well as the answer to my question. Overall, I think the inactivity on Day 1 is coming back to haunt us in a bad way.

In other news, ABR, you didn't answer my question so I'll try rephrasing it: How do you feel about Ronnie come day 2? You didn't really respond to her defense from day 1 either.

@Fitz: If you could line up exactly what parts of Pablo's posts you see as hypocritical it would be much more clear for me.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I think Tororingu has more to answer for than ronnie at this point.

Activity isn't a scumtell at all, in fact most scum like to use lack of activity as a reason to mislynch town.

[Tororingu-chan]

Hi everyone~ sorry about that, I've had a lot of work to do recently~ >_<;;

ABR claimed you were tunnel-visioned towards OMG, I never saw a response to that claim. What do you think of that assessment?

Yes, I was probably tunnel-visioning a little... @_@; I thought he was miles scummier than anyone else, so I tried to get him lynched..

I'll post more later, but currently, my top suspect is DeathNote~! ^_^

[havingfitz]

@Fitz: If you could line up exactly what parts of Pablo's posts you see as hypocritical it would be much more clear for me.

Uh...Ok.

Post 64 -

I'm just riding out the first few pages so I can get a good read on everyone. Then the scum hunting will commence.

Not going to post much and essentially lurk for awhile. Then once he has a good read the scumhunting will begin.

Post 70 -

Vote: OMGLyncher

The reasons are two-fold. Firstly,... Secondly, he challenges a few idea on page 2, but when people come in to argue against him, he just sort of shuts down instead of pushing back.

He hasn't posted anything since then and I feel like he's trying to stay out of sight after ruffling a few feathers.

Votes are our weapons, kiddies. If we sit back and look for people doing things scummy *cough*havingfitz*cough, you'll get NOWHERE and the game will die and/or get taken over by the scum. You have to be proactive and challenge people.

In post 70 he denounces people from doing what he just stated he was going to do

<post 64+70 = hypocrisy>

and makes a point of singling out me in regards to sitting back. Use your votes, be proactive and challenge people he says. Ok. He also votes for OMG and uses "He hasn't posted anything since then and I feel like he's trying to stay out of sight after ruffling a few feathers" as one of his reasons for his vote.

Post 91 -

...let's pile on the votes!

Ok.

Post 104 -

This town is way too tentative for it's own good. I'm still cool with my vote on OMGLyncher.

Town, in general, don't be afraid to use your votes as weapons. At this point, you're not going to lynch someone simply by voting for them once. Nothing gets someone's attention like voting for them.

Ok...don't be tentative and use your votes. You said that already but it still sounds like good advice.

Post 110 -

Believe me: Quiet towns = Dead towns.

And yes, guess what, I STILL want people to pile on some votes. Anyone, anywhere: it is the #1 guaranteed way to spark a discussion.

I think you're looking at all the wrong reasons with your # 2 and 3, fitz. It appears to me that you're marking the 2 most active (content-wise) players simply because there's a lot of material to go off of with us. I'd be more concerned with the people NOT talking.

Ok...I think I get it now. Be active and vote. Got it.

Note: at this point the two most active players were TC and DN. Pablo's 10 prior posts were within one or two posts of everyone else's in the game. Trying to divert attention from himself as one of the two most active players (which he wasn't) and steer attentions to the less active players, of whom he was actually right in line with and is now the leader of,

=hypocrisy IMO

Post 134 -

I dislike playing against replacements

Noted.

Post 142 -

Replacements definitely will have to answer for everything their predecessor was responsible before. I would hate for scum to get off the hook merely because they're a new player in the game.

That said, havingfitz's current post/vote comes at a very bizarre time, in my opinion. OMGLyncher is very clearly AWOL and unable to currently defend himself AND clearly in need of a replacement, (which I'm sure VRK will get in no time once OMG misses his prod), and only then does havingfitz pops in with a vote and post encouraging the town to close this day out ("I won't find vote #5 scummy"), before a defense for OMG can made. I hate replacements as much as the next guy, but to axe a player while gone without allowing them to retort... it screams scummy to me.

Yeah, I don't like OMG being at L-1, yet.

unvote, vote: havingfitz

Huh? I'm trying to be more active in the game. I give my reasons for thinking OMG is the scummiest person (whom you have been focusing on up to this point as well) and vote for him. In your limited number of posts you have urged activity (and used the lack of it as a reason to suspect OMG), prompted us to cast votes, stated your dislike of replacements, and cast suspicions towards OMG. In this one post you use basically all of these things you have espoused to shift suspicions towards me and change your vote from OMG to me. That IMO is

several examples of hypocrisy

lumped into one post.

Post 165 -

Sorry about not being around so much this week. I think it's interesting that havingfitz immediately downgrades to a FoS after a real life person came along. Not only that, but the real-live person hasn't even posted a proper defense or response yet. Where did the gung-ho behavior go? What about keeping pressure on and making replacements answer for with their predecessor did? I'm fine where my vote is right now on havingfitz, who hasn't helped himself one bit with his recent actions, but I'd definitely like to see how Ray responds.

Pablo, who doesn't like replacements and wants people to vote and be active, denounces my downgrading of my vote on RayFrost (which I have explained in detail was to allow him (RF) to state his case) and looks forward to seeing how Ray responds. ? Isn't this what I am trying to achieve as well?

<=Hypocrisy>

In summary....Pablo has: urged us to be active, to pile on votes, stated his dislike of replacements, used OMG's lack of activity as a reason to suspect OMG, and been willing to hear OMGs replacement state his case

and hypocritically,

Pablo has been: the least active on the board, vehemently objected to my vote on his main suspect (OMG), and criticized my willingness (however reluctant it may have been) to allow OMG's replacement to have his say in the very same post where he (Pablo) announces he is looking forward to hearing OMG's replacement's response as well. And then Pablo disappears until Ray is gone.

A lot of hypocrisy and suspicious behaviour in my opinion. That said...I am going camping this afternoon and will be without internet access until Sunday.

v/LA til Sunday afternoon

BTW...I realize I should not focus solely on Pablo as a scum candidate and will try to explore other possibilities after the adventures in camping this weekend [UK forecast...cold and rainy]

[Pablo Molinero]

Post 70 -

Vote: OMGLyncher

The reasons are two-fold. Firstly,... Secondly, he challenges a few idea on page 2, but when people come in to argue against him, he just sort of shuts down instead of pushing back.

He hasn't posted anything since then and I feel like he's trying to stay out of sight after ruffling a few feathers.

Votes are our weapons, kiddies. If we sit back and look for people doing things scummy *cough*havingfitz*cough, you'll get NOWHERE and the game will die and/or get taken over by the scum. You have to be proactive and challenge people.

In post 70 he denounces people from doing what he just stated he was going to do

<post 64+70 = hypocrisy>

and makes a point of singling out me in regards to sitting back. Use your votes, be proactive and challenge people he says. Ok. He also votes for OMG and uses "He hasn't posted anything since then and I feel like he's trying to stay out of sight after ruffling a few feathers" as one of his reasons for his vote.

Hoooolllly crap, really? To the town, I present my whole post #70:

You know what, this whole "sit back for a few pages" thing just doesn’t do it for me. It sounded better when I was first doing it. (Yeesh, I don't post for a freakin' day and I already have people saying "the IC doesn’t post enough?! I'm offended good sirs and madams!) I've reread the thread and have some decent reads on people.

Vote: OMGLyncher

The reasons are two-fold. Firstly, he prefaces his RVS vote with "OMGUSVote:" so we're really, super sure that he's not serious with his vote. Being overly cautious is sometimes forgivable in newbie games, but it is as a whole, mildly scummy. Secondly, he challenges a few idea on page 2, but when people come in to argue against him, he just sort of shuts down instead of pushing back. He hasn't posted anything since then and I feel like he's trying to stay out of sight after ruffling a few feathers.

Votes are our weapons, kiddies. If we sit back and look for people doing things scummy *cough*havingfitz*cough, you'll get NOWHERE and the game will die and/or get taken over by the scum. You have to be proactive and challenge people.

You left out the first paragraph, and in doing so, are guilty of creating a reality that is convenient for your case. I specifically went back on the "sit back" mentality when it was apparent that I was being embarrassingly lazy and the town wasn't being too active. Sorry, when I address the issue myself, it isn't hypocrisy, you're just fabricating reality.

Post 91 -

...let's pile on the votes!

Ok.

Post 104 -

This town is way too tentative for it's own good. I'm still cool with my vote on OMGLyncher.

Town, in general, don't be afraid to use your votes as weapons. At this point, you're not going to lynch someone simply by voting for them once. Nothing gets someone's attention like voting for them.

Ok...don't be tentative and use your votes. You said that already but it still sounds like good advice.

Post 110 -

Believe me: Quiet towns = Dead towns.

And yes, guess what, I STILL want people to pile on some votes. Anyone, anywhere: it is the #1 guaranteed way to spark a discussion.

I think you're looking at all the wrong reasons with your # 2 and 3, fitz. It appears to me that you're marking the 2 most active (content-wise) players simply because there's a lot of material to go off of with us. I'd be more concerned with the people NOT talking.

Ok...I think I get it now. Be active and vote. Got it.

Note: at this point the two most active players were TC and DN. Pablo's 10 prior posts were within one or two posts of everyone else's in the game. Trying to divert attention from himself as one of the two most active players (which he wasn't) and steer attentions to the less active players, of whom he was actually right in line with and is now the leader of,

=hypocrisy IMO

Yes, I have not been the most active and I apologize for doing so. I was moving into the University of Cincinnati and my entire momentum in the game was demolished. I've been modding one game and playing in two and ever then barely able to keep up. I think I'll start to pick it up again as I post more and build a case, though.

Tearing apart the rest of your case will also build up my case against you, conveniently enough, so I'll make that a different post.

We need to look at the context of everything in the events of pages 5-9, something you're not looking at in your desperate attempt to build up a case.

[Pablo Molinero]

Oh look, another quote you cut down for the sake of your own case. For those keeping score, this is count #2 of havingfitz editing down reality to serve his case:

Heh, while I do admit that my "playstyle" sequence posts looks odd (what was I thinking?!), you have to ask yourself if that odd behavior=scummy. I was going to ride out the next few days because I thought the town was going to be more active than it is. When it was apparent we have quite a few people here semi-lurking, I took it upon myself to push the town forward.

Believe me: Quiet towns = Dead towns.

And yes, guess what, I STILL want people to pile on some votes. Anyone, anywhere: it is the #1 guaranteed way to spark a discussion.

I think you're looking at all the wrong reasons with your # 2 and 3, fitz. It appears to me that you're marking the 2 most active (content-wise) players simply because there's a lot of material to go off of with us. I'd be more concerned with the people NOT talking.

In 246, he cut the bolded part out so he could make a point THAT I ALREADY POINTED OUT MYSELF, AT THE TIME. Go up and check where he quoted this from me and see the difference. I don't like this one bit.

[Pablo Molinero]

Huh? I'm trying to be more active in the game. I give my reasons for thinking OMG is the scummiest person (whom you have been focusing on up to this point as well) and vote for him. In your limited number of posts you have urged activity (and used the lack of it as a reason to suspect OMG), prompted us to cast votes, stated your dislike of replacements, and cast suspicions towards OMG. In this one post you use basically all of these things you have espoused to shift suspicions towards me and change your vote from OMG to me. That IMO is several examples of hypocrisy lumped into one post.

Let's look at the context of each case:

OMG disappearing after being called out and voted for by several people: mildly scummy, possibly newbish.

Pablo being less active with no votes on him, but always present: a little lazy, but nothing more.

I am not comparable to OMG, so I think your label of hypocrisy in this case is invalid.

Bear with me, kiddies, and read this all. It will be worth your while.

----------------------

Page 6:

Game is going SLOOOOOW and OMG is prodded, looking like he will not show up.

havingfitz posts this:

Well I'm looking at everyone as a possible mafia but for some I'm not seeing much if any. I'm just pointing out a few interesting observations IMO regarding Mitey. The lack of anything else going on has given a bit of time to do some nitpicking.

Also...with Vel being out of pocket around the first of Oct I'm crossing my fingers we get to the next day sooner than later. I know that sounds bad but this game is creeping along enough as it is.

He stalls, admitting that he can do nothing but nitpick in a game so slow.

And yet, havingfitz's next post is the vote is for OMG and pressures a hammer

before a replacement can be found

.

I don’t like replacements either...especially when they are for someone I suspect to be scummy. As I don’t have any suspicions of note vs. MafiaFailure I don’t think a replacement for him would be the worst thing. On the other hand, I do think a replacement on OMG would suck. Even if the replacement was active and coherent I would still have difficulty getting past the fact the person he replaced (OMG) had given me reason to suspect that combined “OMG & replacement” position. (

Yes, I have this problem, too, but to not even give the person a chance? It's too extreme

) I am definitely not a fan of no-lynching as I think the only ones a no-lynch helps is mafia, as they essentially get a free Day one pass and get to deplete the townies by one at no risk. It also robs the rest of us to opportunity to analyze the votes that were cast. (

reasonable

)

I know putting someone at L-1 is usually seen as a bad thing but I think the current situation in our game, i.e. we seem to be stuck in neutral save a handful of players with OMG being viewed as the roadblock, warrants action (

being overly-defensive about your vote is scummy

). OMG has produced the most evidence for people to suspect him (either in initial actions or his defense and subsequent withdrawal) and in the interests of 1.) progressing the game, 2.) acting on the suspicions he has raised, and 3.) reducing the prospects of a replacement player by at least one (

What? Reducing the prospects of a replacement?!

), I Vote: OMGLyncher . If anyone else wants to moves things forward...now is your chance. (

And here you encourage the hammer, pressuring those who haven't voted to do so and finish this before more discussion can happen. Stifling discussion = majorly scummy. Why would you want less posts, and therefore information, for the town?

)

Note...as I read this post back to myself before submitting it I thought how I would view the person who potentially would place a 5th and deciding vote on OMG. I would have a hard time placing suspicions on the 5th vote on the basis of that vote itself. If I already had my doubts about a player those doubts would remain, but a 5th vote in this instance would not increase my suspicions. (

And here you pressure for the 5th vote in a different way, trying to coax the hammer-er into a sense of security. The hammer is NOT something to be taken this lightly.

) And while that sentiment would appear to take away some of the value earned in analyzing votes, on the chance we do get it right I think the value is still there. Realistically we were moving in the direction of an OMG lynch anyway (

We were a week and a half away from deadline here! Things can easily change in 9-10 days, but you saw the kill you wanted and pushed it hardcore.

) This just gets us there a bit quicker without the added confusion (for me at least) that the replacement of a player with the preponderance of suspicions would introduce (

Again, this reads as "discussion=bad" to me

).

(Bold is mine, obviously)

I back off at this point in the Day, because it's apparent we're getting a replacement. I dislike that as the next guy, but we were still waiting for an OMG reply, and we would finally get

something

with a replacement.

You call me hypocritical for doing this, and this is the cornerstone of your argument. Let's look at the reality:

- I pressure for activity/votes in a slow game. True.

- OMG votes pile up and I have no problem because I believe he is still playing.

- When it becomes apparent we need a replacement, havingfitz jumps on the vote-wagon.

- I back off. True. WHY? Because it's everyone's right to defend themselves, but you persist for the lynch. And

I'm

scummy for wanting the day to continue instead of cutting off discussion?

Your preemptive vote on me today also looks like panic and I'm not liking it. The biggest thing you've done today to add to my preexisting suspicion is selectively edit quotes for your non-existent arguments.

Yeah.

vote: havingfitz