Mini 843- The Fast and the Furious Mafia! (Over-Mod Error)

[MordyS]

[quote=DJ"]the existence of one neighbor means the existence of another. a counterclaim debunks her story and we have none.[/quote]

Clearly I'm missing something. She claimed she had a neighbor AND that he was lynched. How could there possibly be a counterclaim?

[MordyS]

Oh crap. I didn't realize the Mod had verified neighbor. When we started getting off on the flavor tangent, and whether neutral survivor was a confirmation, I totally lost sight of the role reveals.

Unvote

[JereIC]

Vote: MordyS

Yesterday he stuck with voting SB for pages until somebody called him on it, and today he did basically the same thing. I also don't buy his explanation that he missed DB's role reveal in the discussion about flavor, and his post 337 is logically flimsy.

[Faraday]

Gonna go through Starbuck and what I feel are the main points against her.

I really didn't see what don_johnson saw of Boxman. It's supposed to be RVS, so why give a reason at all? I definitely don't like that quick bandwagon.

Now I'm not really that suspicious of don_johnson because at least he gave a detailed reason, but MordyS and Kodamma jumped on for no reason other than "who can resist a wagon!". Kodamma, once called out, quickly jumps off the wagon.

I'm not sure if I buy his defense in post 48.

FOS: Kodamma

I don't get this, I mean you say you're not suspicious of Don just b/c he gave a reason. That seems like a rather large amount of craplogic. A detailed reason can be still full of shit, like don's pretty much was (no offense).

I know that you started it and I did just read it, so please don't tell me to re-read. don_johnson was the only person who gave a reason, you didn't even give one. I really don't buy that you were trying to get the game moving. Why are you trying to deflect attention?

Well I've already given my opinions on this post. I don't see why you wouldn't buy MordyS reasoning, really. It's obvious he wanted to get the game started.

So more or less, Mordy is FOSing me for disagreeing with him because we have different points of view.

if you read the exchange this is a pretty clear strawman, he's saying she's being inconsistent and making a poor argument.

@Faraday - I FOS'd because currently I don't feel the need to move my vote on Mordy. His back and forth with me has made me a bit suspicious of him, so I'll be leaving my vote on him for the time being.

Refering to her earlier FOS on kodamma. I'd like to point out this seems false, due to the fact the exchange with Mordy only really started after her FOS.
I didn't even spot this initially. I'm not sure if it's scummy per-se, as I suppose it's just...wrong?

Her 148 is rather okay.

I still don't get how me as neutral would pique her interest. I think her vote on Ross wasn't bad, really. He was quite scummy at the time.

You know Mordy, you are really struggling to get a case on me.

I don't like this. No quantifiable reason, it just sits awfully with me.

Was/is the main points against starbuck.

She also refers to herself as town, or the town a lot, which may just be something she does, regardless though, so I'll have to check that out.

Don't like the gem of a post @ the start of day as I said, the straw that broke the camel's back if you will.

early claim = meh. I can see her town reasoning, for wanting an early claim, but also the scum ones. I find claiming w/o reason to be less than optimum play though, at the very least.

Her neighbour dying night 1 isn't really much of a tell, I guess, idk, I just see the claim as no reason to believe her to not be scum.

Anyway, that's basically it. I think Starbuck is very probably scum.

Don_johnson is also probably scum, I think.

someone should investigate her. lynching at this point is stupid. her role is as confirmed as it can be, and her alignment can be discovered other ways. continuing to push this angle is distracting from actual scumhunting imo, and the behavior itself should be indicative of lazy scum latching onto the "easy" suspicion

Well, ya know, if she's scum it's kinda not distracting at all.

Also the fact he's done pretty much nothing all game apart from pop up w/ the occasional one liner. His reasoning for finding SpyreX scum, for not dying. Think he's also a possible scum-partner for Starbuck, i.e. could easily see them being scum together.

I'm also going to..admit I'm a bit confused re: the ani situation. Not knowing if he was scum or not is a severe handicap. As well we can't look for possible scum-partners or not

sorry if this is all over the place

[Boxman]

Uh, wow. A lot happened.

I'm willing to believe Starbuck's neighbor claim for now, but it definitely doesn't clear her. I'm not suspicious of her at all, though, so I'll roll with it for now.

And then we have Mordy and Tjoe. Tjoe always acts like this, apparently, so that leaves Mordy. Like Jere said, you seem to be bent on killing Starbuck. Why? I'm personally not getting that much of a scum vibe from the claim, and a few scumtells here and there doesn't necessarily indicate scum. That said, 2 Neighbors usually does include a scum, but we can't assume that.

Vote: MordyS

I was suspicious of you yesterday, and today just makes me think you're scum.

[Shadow Knight]

For the record, I *hate* comments like "Tjoe always acts like this, apparently, so that leaves..." No, it doesn't "leave." If he's acting scummy (and he is), he deserves to be voted. I can't stand it when people get a free pass for acting scummy because they *always* act scummy. If you don't want to be lynched, learn to play better. End of story.

[Starbuck]

We definitely don't need another zwet running around.

[SpyreX]

So the Neutral Survivor flip means nothing and I get to assume he was telling the truth and we're down a PR from that and last night.

Which also means I was balls out wrong on my call with them. Awesome.

Unvote, Vote: SK

Tjoe seems far too transparent. I'm not buying it.

However, not buying this, still.

[MordyS]

To: Boxman, Jer

Eh. It was a reading error. And yes, I kept trying to lynch Starbuck because I found her suspicious. News flash: Mafia scum don't get bonus points for forcing lynches on specific players. My tunneling on Starbuck is a null tell at best. But I'm not going to write hundreds of words in defense of a reading error. That's all it was. Not much more I can offer in way of defense.

[Tjoe Min Ja]

It bothers me that he's jumping on me for lurking but I've barely seen him in the thread.

let's just say that I find that you active in other thread and decide to have "vacation extension" here

not saying that you are scum (yet) but wanna know the reason why you lurk...

[Starbuck]

I'm not lurking. I was V/LA, and I did check in when I could. If that game didn't move more than a page or two, I could keep up.

I also wrote to the mod via PM just in case they were looking for me, and posted my V/LA in the V/LA thread which is what you are supposed to do. Not that it's any of your business.

I have never replaced out of any of my games, and if you need to see a history of my games and view my activity please go to my Wiki.

Can we get off this subject now? Or are you still going to focus on things not of this game?

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote SK

yeah, what spyrex said. he's really good at scumhunting. i will be enormously surprised if he survives too many more nights. i don't really get the starbuck/don pairing. she claimed neighbor. theres no reason to be suspicious of that at this point. there are others who are not suspicious of her as well. are they her scumpartners?

[Tjoe Min Ja]

whatever, Starbuck...

[Starbuck]

Vote: Tjoe

For his lack of scumhunting and distractions.

[SpyreX]

Don you are officially scaring me this game. Flattery will get me a tinfoil hat.

I've been crusin' on Mord being my ultra-town read from early on but 358 gives me a worried feeling in my belly.

Tjoe isn't a BAD lynch. Don't get me wrong. However, I think SK is a much better lynch overall.

[Shadow Knight]

at present, I'm liking the don/tjoe pairing. seriously don? you're voting me for no reason beyond "what spyre said". Nice that I have a case I can defend against and all.

[MordyS]

Yesterday he stuck with voting SB for pages until somebody called him on it, and today he did basically the same thing.

Not actually what happened yesterday. I unvoted SB when her own post convinced me she wasn't scum. But good reading comprehension. :/

[MordyS]

Ok, at the moment I'm split. On one hand, SK's #355 sounds scummy to me. It's doesn't deliver a lot of content, and really makes a pedantic argument. Add that to his super long PBP where he doesn't find a scum but clears a guy as Townie, and I'm a little suspicious. I'd love to hear more about why DJ and SpryeX find him suspicious. As far as DJ; Every day he posts like that I get more and more suspicious. Last game I played with him he was a much more active scumhunter. Here he's completely taken a backseat (to someone who seems townie at least, but way to completely duck any responsibility for your vote). SpryeX: Do you find it scummy that DJ just wagoned on your vote without any contribution of his own? I do. Finally, Tjoe has sounded scummy from Day One, but I haven't been able to figure out whether that's a language/tone thing, or actual scumminess.

And yes, I've tunneled on Starbuck. I think she's very scummy, but like SK pointed out, she's the closest thing we have to a confirm right now. If she's scum and she finagled a good claim, I feel like there's not much I can do.

That said, 2 Neighbors usually does include a scum, but we can't assume that.

Is this so? If it is, please elaborate since it will clearly change my strategy and I'll go back to looking at Starbuck. Particularly the "usually" part. Do you have evidence for this? Is it just in your experience? Or are you just spouting off? (And if it is usually so, than why would you be suspicious of me for going after Starbuck? Wouldn't I be following the intelligent course of action?) Actually, I think Boxman's entire quote/vote here is suspicious:

1) If one half of a neighbor pair is usually scum, then you should be voting for Starbuck. You should certainly not be attacking me for doing that.
2) I actually UNVOTED Starbuck when you made this comment, which makes you late at best, and disingenuous at worst.

Vote: Boxman

[don_johnson]

at present, I'm liking the don/tjoe pairing. seriously don? you're voting me for no reason beyond "what spyre said". Nice that I have a case I can defend against and all.

if the case spyre stated is bad then defend against it. if there is no case then you should be at least somewhat equally suspicious of him as you are of me.

[JereIC]

News flash: Mafia scum don't get bonus points for forcing lynches on specific players. My tunneling on Starbuck is a null tell at best.

I'm talking about bandwagoning here. You voted for her when she was an attractive bandwagon, and unvoted her when she wasn't. And you did it

twice

. What's bonus points got to do with anything?

Not actually what happened yesterday. I unvoted SB when her own post convinced me she wasn't scum. But good reading comprehension. :/

In that post, you said you unvoted after you had reread the thread, but you never cited to what Starbuck posted that made you lean towards her being poor town at that point.

Regarding post 367, it feels off. I actually agree with pretty much everything you post in that first paragraph. SK's huge post, DJ's me-too vote, Tjoe in general, all are suspicious. But throwing out so many suspicions at once feels like a diversion tactic. Then again, you immediately bring attention back to your tunneling on Starbuck, so that diversion theory isn't 100% clear.

The post gets weird again when you say SB is the closest we have to a confirm - how so? If I understand Neighbors correctly, at best she's got an equal chance as the rest of us of being scum. While her role is likely confirmed, as she hasn't been counterclaimed, we have no information as to her alignment.

You need to explain, "If she's scum and she finagled a good claim." Since there's

always

more than one Neighbor, and she hasn't been counterclaimed, it's likely her roleclaim is truthful, but she could still be scum.

At the end, your case against Boxman is weak (he says one Neighbor is usually scum, but "we can't assume that,").

[MordyS]

Actually, if one neighbor is "usually" scum, then we CAN assume that is likely. Probabilities are a good play any day. And I don't know if neighbors are usually scum or not. I'd love for Boxman to explain himself. Also, if you reread, you'll see that I was quoting SK who said she's as close a thing we have to a confirm. And I believe some other players (DJ included) have mirrored that argument. So there are a number of people who believe she's a confirm.

[Shadow Knight]

@dj- nope. I can see someone coming in and deciding that I'm scum and voting me for it. I'm not going to let you barn him just to dodge responsibility for your vote.

[Shadow Knight]

EBWODP- and with that last post by DJ he climbs past Tjoe on scumminess.

unvote, vote DJ

[JereIC]

Actually, if one neighbor is "usually" scum, then we CAN assume that is likely. Probabilities are a good play any day. And I don't know if neighbors are usually scum or not. I'd love for Boxman to explain himself.

That's a good point. I'll have to take a second look at Boxman tonight.

Also, if you reread, you'll see that I was quoting SK who said she's as close a thing we have to a confirm. And I believe some other players (DJ included) have mirrored that argument. So there are a number of people who believe she's a confirm.

Whether or not SK and DJ said it before, you seem to agree with it, so you must have a reason why. What is that reason?

[MordyS]

I've never seen a "neighbor" before, so I was taking the general consensus into account. It seemed like people agreed that she was a confirmed townie. Now some disagreement is emerging. Are you of the opinion, Jere, that she isn't a confirmed townie?