Mini 855: Colorless Rainbow Town (Halted for list mod error)

[Chinaman]

MOD: I believe I should be in the "not voting" category as per p303.

[cruelty]

mod: manczar was replaced.

MOD NOTE: Skruffs has replaced Manzcar.

Vote count in a few minutes.

Anyway, I'm a little concerned Zeenon is deliberately active lurking. I'm not against a Zeenon lynch if he doesn't post within the next day or two.


(That's not to say I'm not suspicious of you MM).

[MonkeyMan576]

mod: manczar was replaced.

MOD NOTE: Skruffs has replaced Manzcar.

Vote count in a few minutes.

Anyway, I'm a little concerned Zeenon is deliberately active lurking. I'm not against a Zeenon lynch if he doesn't post within the next day or two.


(That's not to say I'm not suspicious of you MM).

If you're so convinced I'm scum wouldn't you be against the lynch I am for?

[Chinaman]

At first I said, "wow, MM has a good point here"....then I read an ISO on Cruelty to see where he was "so convinced" that MM is scum....I'm not finding it.

@cruelty: I will say this, MM had sorta a good point. Why would you be ok with a ZEE lynch when your vote is on MM. Basically, why are you voting MM if you are fine with lynching ZEE...whom MM is voting for. Are you voting for MM for any other reason besides suspecting him as scum?

[cruelty]

If Zeenon is active lurking that supersedes any suspicion I have of MM.

[StrangerCoug]

mod: manczar was replaced.

MOD NOTE: Skruffs has replaced Manzcar.

Vote count in a few minutes.

Damn Josh Lyman for not updating the player list then >< There's still somebody missing in the vote count, and I'm trying to figure out who that is.

[d3x]

I think you're missing jason.

[d3x]

Sorry.

Mod- I think you're missing jason. In case you didn't see that last one due to it not being bolded.

[Fuzzyman]

Isn't it awesome that ZEEnon also left us hanging on a rationale to vote Scien?

[d3x]

Isn't it awesome that ZEEnon also left us hanging on a rationale to vote Scien?

Isn't it awesome that you continue to actively lurk your way through this game? Have you nothing to say regarding what

is

happening?

HoS:Fuzzy

[Fuzzyman]

I kind of agree with cruelty's sentiments on MM.

[d3x]

Tell me Fuzzy, is it normal behaviour for you to lurk this bad in games? Honest question. Could you please link me to some of your games {Town and Scum}? Why do you feel the need to not participate?

[MonkeyMan576]

If Zeenon is active lurking that supersedes any suspicion I have of MM.

That's rather convenient that you can say that you are suspicious of Zeenon's lurking and me. They seem to be rather mutually exclusive at this point, as by saying you are suspicious of Zeenon, you are supporting the wagon I am on.

[ZEEnon]

Alright, so to begin we will go through a post-by-post analysis of Raivann's posts and interactions for his stay during the game. This is in order to both find pro-town connections as well as possible scum partners.

Caution:

Most of the Raivann post-by-post analysis is speculation. Readers discretion is advised.

Raivann's Isolation Post

(which can be accessed at the bottom of the page)

#0:

In his first post, Raivann provides us with tons of speculation material. First of all, his need to vote Sweep, in my opinion, makes Sweep (now Chinaman) look bad since Raivann may have wanted to attempt to distance himself from Sweep/Chinaman early on. However, since this is WIFOM, it should be disregarded by you all. I'm just stating this because although it may mean nothing, it could potentially mean something later on. Second off, Raivann clearly shows that he couldn't pick between MonkeyMan576 and Manzcar, now known as Skruffs. This could either be due to the fact that both of them are town and that he wanted to keep his options open, which is what I suspect, OR one of them may have been his partner. While this second situation is more unlikely in my opinion, it is possible. If it was the second situation, I still hold the belief that Manzcar/Skruffs is the more scummier of the two and would be my number one mafia choice if it came down to one of the two.

Raivann's Isolation Post #1-2:

In Raivann's second and third posts, his interactions with d3x make me believe that d3x is town. d3x points out early on that Raivann clearly didn't read the situation in posts #81 and #105, and is actually the FIRST person to start suspecting Raivann now that I checked. Raivann's third post was trying way to hard to cast suspicion upon d3x. He started off by saying "Another scummy post from d3x.", however if they were partners and d3x didn't post a previous scummy post, which he didn't, I think that Raivann would not have posted that. The fact that Raivann claims that d3x creates cases out of thin air also adds to my viewpoint that d3x is town.

Raivann's Isolation Post #3:

This post, Raivann decides to point suspicion upon two new candidates, MonkeyMan576 and myself. I will skip over analyzing the posts directed as me since it will just be a bunch of WIFOM to all of you. Raivann's post to MonkeyMan576 is very telling, however. His comment "Why can't you concentrate on other players with your vote still on Manz? Or did you have a change of heart?" is really stretched because in my opinion it had a clear, huge motive behind it. I think it was an attempt to get the heat off himself in any way possible.

Skipping a little because they just make d3x and MonkeyMan576 look even more town.
His post to Dizzle doesn't sway me one way or the other.

Raivann's Isolation Post #12:

This post makes me think Chinaman is less scummy, which may surprise you. Since Raivann was under major suspicion now at that point, I would expect more buddying up to town-aligned players, saying that he thinks they are town, while he very likely started to bus his buddies to potentially get them a better standing within the town community. In this post, Raivann calls Chinaman's post townie, which is likely due to the fact that Chinaman IS in fact town and that he wanted to buddy up to him. Just my opinion on the post, no need to feel the same way as me.

Raivann's Isolation Post #3 & #13:

In these posts Raivann calls Fuzzyman town. I am unsure whether this is to buddy up to Fuzzman-town or because Raivann wanted to protect Fuzzyman-scum. Since I can't get a read off this, this post is neutral.

Raivann's Isolation Post #15:

probscum=Zeenon,MM

I support either a Scien or Zeenon lynch.
Vote:Scien

Within a span of, wait for it, ONE post, he completely turns around from naming me as his top suspect, to voting Scien. Just like I stated in my analysis of Raivann's Isolation Post #12, I think this is the time that Raivann would DEFINITELY start to bus as mafia, since he had at least half of the players suspecting him majorly. The fact that he just names Scien as a suspect and votes him just from one post Scien made is extremely suspicious to me, making Scien pop onto my radar immediately after seeing Raivann flip scum.

Raivann's Isolation Post #17:

This post of Raivann's just makes me laugh. Like seriously! What goes on in this guy's head?

"I'm going to ask my number one suspect if he wants to switch with me to my number two suspect!"

To be honest, "Would you support a Zeenon lynch, Scien?" makes me feel even stronger conviction that Scien is mafia. Sure, you might argue that scum wouldn't be that obvious about their partners. But then again you would also argue that scum wouldn't be obvious about themselves, but clearly Raivann contradicts that statement since he obvious to the extreme.

That's it for the Raivann post-by-post analysis, stay tuned for more!

[ZEEnon]

*Commercial Break!*

Just some current events that I need to express my view on:

First of all, I have no idea why people are acting like my overview of the game is so important. First of all, I freely volunteered to do it myself, but you are all acting as if it was asked of from me and that I

have

to do it. Second, discussion should be able to continue, but I seen some of you say "i'm waiting for ZEEnon to post his synopsis." Like HELLO! One, that doesn't give you any excuse to stop discussing. Two, it is

not

mandatory. I chose to write what I said I would write of my

own free will

. When you act like I have an obligation to make a summary of each player, I completely feel like doing the opposite, which is not doing anything at all.

[ZEEnon]

TOWN-ALIGNED

MonkeyMan576

- Confident Town

d3x

- Confident Town

cruelty

- Confident Town

Sweep/Chinaman

- Leaning Town

jasonT1981

- Neutral

Hero764

- Neutral

Manzcar/Skruffs

- Neutral

Fuzzyman

- Leaning Mafia

Dizzle

- Leaning Mafia

Scien

- Confident Mafia

MAFIA-ALIGNED

I will let you all know why I feel the way I do for each individual tomorrow, these posts take a LONG time.
I think I forgot to mention, my computer is down for good unfortunately which is why I am re-writing these summaries.

[ZEEnon]

I thought I said this during the commercial break, but I completely don't agree with the current MonkeyMan576 lynch.

[cruelty]

Just some current events that I need to express my view on:

First of all, I have no idea why people are acting like my overview of the game is so important.

Don't really care about your overview of the game (any content is good content but this isn't the info I want from you). You have had several questions asked of you which you need to answer. This is why people are waiting on you to post, because your answers to said questions could absolutely prove important.

When you act like I have an obligation to make a summary of each player, I completely feel like doing the opposite, which is not doing anything at all.

That's nice. But again, you've incurred a little bit of suspicion, you have to follow through on what you said you would do now, or you'll get pinged for active lurking.

That's rather convenient that you can say that you are suspicious of Zeenon's lurking and me. They seem to be rather mutually exclusive at this point, as by saying you are suspicious of Zeenon, you are supporting the wagon I am on.

Look.

Your suspicion of Zeenon does not make you innocent.

The setup specifically states that there may be some anti-town roles that aren't mafia-aligned. I'm not going to engage in speculation regarding the setup, but I bring it up so that we're clear that I can be legitimately suspicious of both of you.


I feel like your entire defence has been very flimsy, I don't think you're actively scumhunting and I don't really like that you're trying to paint me in a negative light for suspecting you. It's very hard to look past you when basically every post of yours directed my way is (going by my 'liberal definition') OMGUS.

I'd also like a little bit of input from other players.

@everyone, are the points I'm making against MM valid? Vice versa?

[MonkeyMan576]

Unvote

Appreciate Zeenon trying to contribute, hopefully it will be on a more steady basis.

Re: Cruelty, he says the same thing over and over and there really isn't any substance to it.

FOS: Scien

Zeenan brings up some good points and I'm starting to reconsider the Raivann/Scien sumpair theory. The lynch on Raivann was running pretty smoothly and Scien seemed intent on slowing it down.

[d3x]

Scien seemed intent on slowing it down.

Can you specifically point to where?

@cruelty- I'm with you. In the least, I think he's being dodgy and he's admitting to it. Further, he's not following through, which is scummy in my eyes.

[MonkeyMan576]

Scien seemed intent on slowing it down.

Can you specifically point to where?

Pretty much starting @267.

[d3x]

MM- Thank you. Now, why are you blatantly refusing to answer questions?

[MonkeyMan576]

MM- Thank you. Now, why are you blatantly refusing to answer questions?

I'm not refusing to answer anything. List the questions I'm not answering and I'll answer them.

[d3x]

I'm going to go backwards in time, with just me. cruelty can list his if he feels the same.

So I just read over that last interaction we had MM, and I noticed that you are continuing to selectively answer small points in my posts. Why? This time, I'm not feeling as forgiving.

Lets start easy.

if I was trying too hard to seem town, I would be suspicious of the same thing

I am suggesting that you are doing exactly that, trying too hard to seem Town; so much so that you are physically pointing out what

should

gain you Town points.

what's happening is you're trying to isolate things that sound scummy and not looking at the overall picture

Well, they say that the Devil's in the details. Ok, I'll play it your way. What is the overall picture that I should be looking at?

in the abscence of a good lynch target

Are you suggesting that we don't have a "good lynch candidate"?

it's certainly a valid strategy

Here's what concerns me. In my first game {Newbie 782} we did exactly that. The Town decided to lynch a lurker instead and it helped my partner and I to secure a perfect Scum victory. It was glorious.

Gotta cut this short. I'll be back...

You didn't respond to anything in this post, it was completely ignored.

On to the lurkers, who specifically do you think needs more attention? How would you suggest we get lurking players to not get 'free passes'?

You answered one question of this batch, so I left it off.

Again, I don't believe you were being attacked on that point. In the above example, Dizzle was just asking you why you Voted ZEE. Aside from that, wanting to seem proTown and blatantly calling your own play proTown are 2 very different things.

As to you 'attacking' Raivann, you clearly said that you wanted your Vote on Raivann to be 'on record'. It's never really sat well with me, but it got dropped for want of jucier conversation after a few posts. Your p200 reads exactly like the 'bringing out lurkers is proTown' comment. It doesn't help the fact that you end p200 by saying you'd be ok taking your Vote off if the Town didn't want it there.

It feels like you're trying to appease us and tell us why you're proTown instead of showing us.

This isn't a question, but you didn't respond to it, so I'm listing it. You put something vague down about my suspicions being valid, but 'people' are seeing scummy things where there aren't scummy things. You can't have it both ways, MM. Either my suspicions are valid {you're acting scummy} or people are jumping at shadows {you're not acting scummy}. If the later is true, then you haven't even begun to adress my issues with you.

Also, as these aren't hidden, cleverly disguised to trip you up, or make you think they're rhetorical, how are you...

not refusing to answer anything

...? You were...

not aware of the question

...? Bullsh!t. You've already played that card. The point is, you can answer these, but it's about the third time it's happened with me alone.

[MonkeySudo]

what's happening is you're trying to isolate things that sound scummy and not looking at the overall picture

Well, they say that the Devil's in the details. Ok, I'll play it your way. What is the overall picture that I should be looking at?

1) That I've been a proactive scumhunter, at least more so than most players

2) I was on Raivann's scumlist...

3) I was on the Raivann wagon

4) I am on Zeenon's townlist

in the abscence of a good lynch target

Are you suggesting that we don't have a "good lynch candidate"?[/Quote]

My instinct says cruelty is scummy for his refusal to see my productive points, but I am holding back against that because it is a little OMGUSy. I would prefer to find another candidate. Scien seems the best option right now, if it were up to me.

it's certainly a valid strategy. Here's what concerns me. In my first game {Newbie 782} we did exactly that. The Town decided to lynch a lurker instead and it helped my partner and I to secure a perfect Scum victory. It was glorious.

Well, lurking is definately a scum tell, and if you don't follow through on scum tells it will end badly for the town more often than not. You won't get a 100% victory rate, but you can't let lurkers get away with lurking.

Again, I don't believe you were being attacked on that point. In the above example, Dizzle was just asking you why you Voted ZEE. Aside from that, wanting to seem proTown and blatantly calling your own play proTown are 2 very different things.

As to you 'attacking' Raivann, you clearly said that you wanted your Vote on Raivann to be 'on record'. It's never really sat well with me, but it got dropped for want of jucier conversation after a few posts. Your p200 reads exactly like the 'bringing out lurkers is proTown' comment. It doesn't help the fact that you end p200 by saying you'd be ok taking your Vote off if the Town didn't want it there.

It feels like you're trying to appease us and tell us why you're proTown instead of showing us.

I'm not consciously trying to state my towniness. It is something I am generally against in other players. But cruelty was attacking me, rather baselessly I might add, so that can account for my rather defensive tone. Being defensive is not a scum tell, in fact players that defend themselves well end up being town more often than not, so it could be seen as a town-tell.