Mini 855: Colorless Rainbow Town (Halted for list mod error)

[MonkeyMan576]

Sorry, alt.

[Dizzle]

I can't wait to see how Zee, or anyone else for that matter, tries to paint Monkey as town. Should be an interesting read.

@Monkey - So you get on the Zee bandwagon nice and early as to not be accused of bandwagoning this time. Immediately after Zee makes his first significant post in a while, you drop your vote on him and switch your suspicion over to the scum at the top of his fancy town/mafia list. To me, it looks like you go after whomever you think will become the town's top suspect with little or no regard to any actually scummy things they have done.

Scien seemed intent on slowing it down.

While Scien did seem to question his vote of Raivann in p.267, he made no effort that I could find of trying to change others' votes. Skruffs was the first person, I think, that questioned the Raivann votes.

1) That I've been a proactive scumhunter, at least more so than most players

2) I was on Raivann's scumlist...

3) I was on the Raivann wagon

4) I am on Zeenon's townlist

1) We get it, you want us to think you're town, enough already.

2) Raivann knew he was in trouble so it's not out of the realm of possibility that he would try to bus his partners or try to distance himself for their future benefit.

3) So were many other people, some of whom could have been Raivann's partners. You also stated that your vote was partly to get it "on the record".

4) Zee is just one player who, like all of us, is susceptible to making mistakes. Due to his lurking and avoidance of questions, I would assume that he is near the top of many people's suspect lists too. Anyway, how does Zee's opinion of cruelty as likely town change the way that you look at the back and forth between yourself and cruelty?

@everyone, are the points I'm making against MM valid? Vice versa?

Yes, I think you're making mostly valid points. I do take issue with you stating that you'd be ok with a Zee lynch because active lurking supersedes your suspicion of Monkey. Do you mean that active lurking always supersedes any suspicions you might have or just in this case with Monkey?

[Fuzzyman]

Tell me Fuzzy, is it normal behaviour for you to lurk this bad in games? Honest question. Could you please link me to some of your games {Town and Scum}? Why do you feel the need to not participate?

viewtopic.php?t=8578 ~ Mafia Abandoned
viewtopic.php?t=8218 ~ Town Loss
viewtopic.php?t=11997&start=0 ~ Mafia Win

Admittedly haven't brought a town to victory yet.

I also don't feel that I'm making the biggest failure to play here.

@ZEEnon: Please prioritize more effectively. Rationales for votes come first.

1) That I've been a proactive scumhunter, at least more so than most players

2) I was on Raivann's scumlist...

3) I was on the Raivann wagon

4) I am on Zeenon's townlist

1 is valid, 2 and 3 are too Wifomish (No chance of a bus?), 4 makes me think less of you.

[cruelty]

I do take issue with you stating that you'd be ok with a Zee lynch because active lurking supersedes your suspicion of Monkey. Do you mean that active lurking always supersedes any suspicions you might have or just in this case with Monkey?

Oh fair enough.

I think that active lurking (that is, occasional posts that say "I'm here" and nothing more) is about as scummy as you can possibly be without making an obvious scum slip. MM hasn't made an obvious, undeniable scumslip so yeah, I'm not against a Zeenon lynch (if it transpires he is active lurking).

[StrangerCoug]

Vote count when I get home.

[cruelty]

1) That I've been a proactive scumhunter, at least more so than most players

2) I was on Raivann's scumlist...

3) I was on the Raivann wagon

4) I am on Zeenon's townlist

1 - Where in the last few pages have you been proactively scumhunting?

2 - Irrelevant.

3 - Irrelevant.

4 - Irrelevant.



You cannot use other people as evidence that you're not guilty. I don't want to keep bringing it up but the setup allows for more than one anti-town group (eg: sk), and that's ignoring the possibility of bussing.

There is a precedent for your alignment being determined by your actions with other people, but they have to be YOUR actions. Citing what other people think of you as quasi-conclusive proof that you're not scum is illogical.

I'm not consciously trying to state my towniness. It is something I am generally against in other players.

So everytime you post you're pro-town, it's your subconscious hitting the keyboard? What do you actually mean to say here?

Being defensive is not a scum tell, in fact players that defend themselves well end up being town more often than not, so it could be seen as a town-tell.

Do you think you're defending yourself well?

[MonkeyMan576]

1 - Where in the last few pages have you been proactively scumhunting?

I've been a pretty steady scumhunter throughout the day. The last few pages I've been concentrating defending myself.

You cannot use other people as evidence that you're not guilty. I don't want to keep bringing it up but the setup allows for more than one anti-town group (eg: sk), and that's ignoring the possibility of bussing.

There is a precedent for your alignment being determined by your actions with other people, but they have to be YOUR actions. Citing what other people think of you as quasi-conclusive proof that you're not scum is illogical.

I never said anything was quasi-conclusive. I'm just citing why I think I'm not scummy.

So everytime you post you're pro-town, it's your subconscious hitting the keyboard? What do you actually mean to say here?

I mean there are times when people act more defensive and times when people act less defensive, based on how other players are acting, independant of their alignment.

Being defensive is not a scum tell, in fact players that defend themselves well end up being town more often than not, so it could be seen as a town-tell.

Do you think you're defending yourself well?

I'm trying to, but yes, in a short answer.

[MonkeyMan576]

I am suggesting that you are doing exactly that, trying too hard to seem Town; so much so that you are physically pointing out what

should

gain you Town points.

what's happening is you're trying to isolate things that sound scummy and not looking at the overall pictureWell, they say that the Devil's in the details. Ok, I'll play it your way. What is the overall picture that I should be looking at?

That overall I've been valuable to the town, I was on the Raivann wagon, I was fingered as scum by Raivann, so obviously he was trying to get you to think I was scum.

in the abscence of a good lynch target

Are you suggesting that we don't have a "good lynch candidate"?

Right now I would support a scien lynch. In fact,

Unvote:
Vote: Scien

it's certainly a valid strategy. Here's what concerns me. In my first game {Newbie 782} we did exactly that. The Town decided to lynch a lurker instead and it helped my partner and I to secure a perfect Scum victory. It was glorious.

Well, that's certainly a valid concern. But that's not what's happening here. Lurking is definately a scum tell and deserves to be treated as such and with consequences.

On to the lurkers, who specifically do you think needs more attention? How would you suggest we get lurking players to not get 'free passes'?You answered one question of this batch, so I left it off.

By lynching lurkers if there's not a scummier player to lynch.

Again, I don't believe you were being attacked on that point. In the above example, Dizzle was just asking you why you Voted ZEE. Aside from that, wanting to seem proTown and blatantly calling your own play proTown are 2 very different things.

That's a valid observation, but I only called my play pro-town in the context of being questioned/attacked, which I believe was the case.

As to you 'attacking' Raivann, you clearly said that you wanted your Vote on Raivann to be 'on record'. It's never really sat well with me, but it got dropped for want of jucier conversation after a few posts. Your p200 reads exactly like the 'bringing out lurkers is proTown' comment. It doesn't help the fact that you end p200 by saying you'd be ok taking your Vote off if the Town didn't want it there.

It feels like you're trying to appease us and tell us why you're proTown instead of showing us. This isn't a question, but you didn't respond to it, so I'm listing it. You put something vague down about my suspicions being valid, but 'people' are seeing scummy things where there aren't scummy things. You can't have it both ways, MM. Either my suspicions are valid {you're acting scummy} or people are jumping at shadows {you're not acting scummy}. If the later is true, then you haven't even begun to adress my issues with you.

The "on the record" statement is being over-analyzed. I did not mean that my vote on Raivann was not a real vote. I meant that I thought Raivann was going to be lynched, and since I felt strongly that Raivann was scum, I wanted to be helpful and be on the wagon.

Also, as these aren't hidden, cleverly disguised to trip you up, or make you think they're rhetorical, how are you...

not refusing to answer anything

...? You were...

not aware of the question

...? Bullsh!t. You've already played that card. The point is, you can answer these, but it's about the third time it's happened with me alone.

I'm having multiple questions asked of me by multiple people. I understand your frustration, but not answering questions isn't intentional on my part.

[StrangerCoug]

VOTE COUNT

MonkeyMan576 3:

Dizzle (316), dvx (340), cruelty (361)

Scien 2:

ZEEnon (302), MonkeyMan576 (407)

ZEEnon 2:

Fuzzyman (100), Scien (297)

Not voting: Hero764, Skruffs, Chinaman, jasonT1981, MonkeyMan576

With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch.

[Chinaman]

Cruelty: Your response with the whole lurker vs. MM is understandable. I will however disagree with you when you said MM hasn't made any scumslips that are obvious and undeniable. I will explain below.

OK, so nobody except MM actually posted about ZEE's ISO on known scum. This is curious to me but doesn't mean anything yet. Cruelty, you obviously read ZEE's second post thus I'm assuming you read his first (the ISO). Why did you choose not to comment on any of the meat and only comment on the fat so to speak (ZEE's second post). I read both and decided that the second post was more of a rant than anything to take into consideration. It's actually something I could see myself posting out of emotion or annoyance. Although I may not be fully behind ZEE's posts, I will say that I see what he was trying to point at most of all. The game was practically dead. Everyone, including myself, seemed as though we would rather wait for a substantial post from ZEE than come up with one on our own. Not pointing any fingers as I was there as well, but truth be told, the game was slow, and now has picked up thus validating his point in his second post imo.

ZEE: I will agree with cruelty however that you (ZEE) did not really address the questions put out to you which is what I think more people were waiting for than your actual ISO and scumhunt. I personally want both and I will say that some of your points in ISO are something to think about.

MM: Cruelty is entirely right in the fact it is not crazy scummy to be suspicious of you and someone you are suspicious of. I hadn't really thought too much about what other roles might be out there, but if he is taking that into consideration, his suspicion of you and someone you are suspicious of makes sense if there are other non-town roles. Would you agree? Also, you unvote and FoS: Scien. I'm assuming this is mainly due to ZEE's ISO post. Then you later Vote him. Here's my problem with this....you unvoted ZEE and then picked up his top suspect on one post from him. He didn't answer any questions you and others had for him, but you unvote him based on his scumhunt? What if you were right and he was scum?! Would anything in his ISO be worth a dump in the toilet? Anything at all? It doesn't sit right with me. It's opportunistic to switch back and forth so freely. Also, the fact that he put you at the top of his town list makes it look a little like buddying to me. He's the only one who's said your actions are towny, and tbh, I can't tell where he's getting it from. Let's look at what has stood out about you as I see it:

1. You constantly say the things you are doing are Pro-town or help town or whatever. This is scummy because you wanting to point out that what you are doing is pro-town makes it seem like you don't really buy into what you are doing. Actions should speak for themselves, even if not everyone thinks the actions are as towny as you may think they are.

2. You are dead set in making sure we know you were suspicious and on the wagon of known scum. We know that already, and pointing it out in multiple posts seems scummy.

3. You are dead set on ZEE as it seems like most people were, he posts and ISO on someone and BAM, all a sudden what ZEE is posting must be true? On top of it all, you then try and use ZEE opinion of you to try and defend yourself. Seriously, cuz ZEE says your town you must be town? Did you really think so much time has passed by that we had forgotten that ZEE was suspect and still is?

4. The whole you and manz at the beginning of the game looks bad on you now. He asks why it mattered what roles were out there and instead of simply telling him why you thought it mattered, you blew up and voted for him? It seems now that I am viewing you as scum, your actions here look more like jumping on the first opportunity you could see to start a mislynch. TBH, even though it was the beginning of the game, reading enough into a question to actually accuse someone of being scum looks bad. Also, I got the feeling that your unvote came from seeing nobody back you up. Had there been more votes on Manz, I wonder if you still would have unvoted.

5.

Well, maybe Raivann should be the one to lay out the argument for Manz instead of me, then. I think I've already explained it enough, and there is some reasonable concern as to Raivann's understanding of it.

This now has meaning where I didn't really understand why you posted it before. I can see this as a cry for help from a scumbuddy. Like "hey, back me up here." Not saying it is or isn't but looking at your posts with scum goggles on, it sure looks that way.

6. Uhg, I did an ISO on you and was going to post here all the times you flip flopped your opinion but to be honest, that would take too much time. It's like you go balls to the wall on someone, then 'oh, well, maybe not, too hard to tell', then back to balls to the wall on someone else, then back up again, then again and again..../sigh. I didn't even get to the modkill of Raivann to know you did it too many times for my liking.

7. Another thing I picked up in the ISO that I had forgotten was when you started on the Raivann/Scien team. You said this long before ZEE's post. With ZEE pointing his finger at Scien as his top suspect, it makes a little more scum-sense as to why you flip-flopped back over to Scien.

Due to these things, I have to

Vote: MonkeyMan

Please address my points and tell me how these actions are coming from someone town. Put a town spin on them instead of a scum one if you will. Should be easy for you since you're claiming to practically bleed town.

-----------------------

MOD

: sorry I didn't get this post in before your vote count post...

[MonkeyMan576]

Cruelty: Your response with the whole lurker vs. MM is understandable. I will however disagree with you when you said MM hasn't made any scumslips that are obvious and undeniable. I will explain below.

OK, so nobody except MM actually posted about ZEE's ISO on known scum. This is curious to me but doesn't mean anything yet. Cruelty, you obviously read ZEE's second post thus I'm assuming you read his first (the ISO). Why did you choose not to comment on any of the meat and only comment on the fat so to speak (ZEE's second post). I read both and decided that the second post was more of a rant than anything to take into consideration. It's actually something I could see myself posting out of emotion or annoyance. Although I may not be fully behind ZEE's posts, I will say that I see what he was trying to point at most of all. The game was practically dead. Everyone, including myself, seemed as though we would rather wait for a substantial post from ZEE than come up with one on our own. Not pointing any fingers as I was there as well, but truth be told, the game was slow, and now has picked up thus validating his point in his second post imo.

ZEE: I will agree with cruelty however that you (ZEE) did not really address the questions put out to you which is what I think more people were waiting for than your actual ISO and scumhunt. I personally want both and I will say that some of your points in ISO are something to think about.

MM: Cruelty is entirely right in the fact it is not crazy scummy to be suspicious of you and someone you are suspicious of. I hadn't really thought too much about what other roles might be out there, but if he is taking that into consideration, his suspicion of you and someone you are suspicious of makes sense if there are other non-town roles. Would you agree? Also, you unvote and FoS: Scien. I'm assuming this is mainly due to ZEE's ISO post. Then you later Vote him. Here's my problem with this....you unvoted ZEE and then picked up his top suspect on one post from him. He didn't answer any questions you and others had for him, but you unvote him based on his scumhunt? What if you were right and he was scum?! Would anything in his ISO be worth a dump in the toilet? Anything at all? It doesn't sit right with me. It's opportunistic to switch back and forth so freely. Also, the fact that he put you at the top of his town list makes it look a little like buddying to me. He's the only one who's said your actions are towny, and tbh, I can't tell where he's getting it from. Let's look at what has stood out about you as I see it:

1. You constantly say the things you are doing are Pro-town or help town or whatever. This is scummy because you wanting to point out that what you are doing is pro-town makes it seem like you don't really buy into what you are doing. Actions should speak for themselves, even if not everyone thinks the actions are as towny as you may think they are.

2. You are dead set in making sure we know you were suspicious and on the wagon of known scum. We know that already, and pointing it out in multiple posts seems scummy.

3. You are dead set on ZEE as it seems like most people were, he posts and ISO on someone and BAM, all a sudden what ZEE is posting must be true? On top of it all, you then try and use ZEE opinion of you to try and defend yourself. Seriously, cuz ZEE says your town you must be town? Did you really think so much time has passed by that we had forgotten that ZEE was suspect and still is?

4. The whole you and manz at the beginning of the game looks bad on you now. He asks why it mattered what roles were out there and instead of simply telling him why you thought it mattered, you blew up and voted for him? It seems now that I am viewing you as scum, your actions here look more like jumping on the first opportunity you could see to start a mislynch. TBH, even though it was the beginning of the game, reading enough into a question to actually accuse someone of being scum looks bad. Also, I got the feeling that your unvote came from seeing nobody back you up. Had there been more votes on Manz, I wonder if you still would have unvoted.

5.

Well, maybe Raivann should be the one to lay out the argument for Manz instead of me, then. I think I've already explained it enough, and there is some reasonable concern as to Raivann's understanding of it.

This now has meaning where I didn't really understand why you posted it before. I can see this as a cry for help from a scumbuddy. Like "hey, back me up here." Not saying it is or isn't but looking at your posts with scum goggles on, it sure looks that way.

6. Uhg, I did an ISO on you and was going to post here all the times you flip flopped your opinion but to be honest, that would take too much time. It's like you go balls to the wall on someone, then 'oh, well, maybe not, too hard to tell', then back to balls to the wall on someone else, then back up again, then again and again..../sigh. I didn't even get to the modkill of Raivann to know you did it too many times for my liking.

7. Another thing I picked up in the ISO that I had forgotten was when you started on the Raivann/Scien team. You said this long before ZEE's post. With ZEE pointing his finger at Scien as his top suspect, it makes a little more scum-sense as to why you flip-flopped back over to Scien.

Due to these things, I have to

Vote: MonkeyMan

Please address my points and tell me how these actions are coming from someone town. Put a town spin on them instead of a scum one if you will. Should be easy for you since you're claiming to practically bleed town.

-----------------------

MOD

: sorry I didn't get this post in before your vote count post...

Your post is littered in sarcasm, and fails to take seriously any of MY arguments, yet I am supposed to take you seriously? You are trying to boost your argument with colorful language yet there is little substance to your arguments.

1. You're entitled to your opinion. Again, my point is not to paint myself as town, but to point out that there are far scummier people out there.


2. I'll point it out as often as people point out the same arguments over and over against me, despite that I have answered them.

3. At this point, everyone's a suspect. I don't think anyone has ruled YOU out yet. But, we wouldn't want to accuse you of trying to paint yourself as town or anything...

4. I don't see how my interaction with Mancar looks bad. It's still true that being against scum rolefishing is scummy. You claiming otherwise doesn't look good on you.

5. I was clearly asking Raivann to post the argument because I didn't believe he understood it, and voting for someone without understanding the basis for the argument is scummy.

6. This doesn't make any sense. Zee and I are advocating the Scien/Raivann scumpair theory because Scien was defending Raivann. You defending Scien at this point clearly looks suspicious.

In the future, please try not to exaggerate your arguments with colorful language. Most people will see style over substance. And lose the sarcasm, it doesn't advance your argument at all, and in fact hinders it.

[Chinaman]

Sarcasm is a tool and one I use. Deal with it. Why wouldn't you take someone accusing you of being scum seriously? I happen to believe there is plenty of substance to my arguments and after that last post, I think you have only strengthened them.

1. I have to disagree. Who's scummier? Scien? Why? Cuz Zee said so? If ZEE changed his mind and said you were scummy, would you stay on Scien or find a way to get back on ZEE without it looking like OMGUS? (<--rhetorical questions)

2. Being on a wagon of scum does not make you town. Period. ESPECIALLY since we didn't get to see how it would have panned out due to him being modkilled and not lynched. Who knows, you could have easily flip flopped again.

3. What? I don't even get this. Everyone's suspect, but when you go after someone it's balls to the wall. I would hope nobody would rule me out. That's buddying and scummy. Only scum have info on what side others are on. I don't even get where the second part of that came from......how would you even be able to accuse me of that? Because I go out of my way to say "hey, look at all the town things I'm doing" as I do them?? No wait, that's you.

4. wow....did I ever once say anything close to being against "scum rolefishing"? First of all, I'm not sure that town can actually tell the difference between standard rolefishing or "scum rolefishing". In fact, I'm at a loss on what the difference is or even how to go about fishing for scum roles. Aside from that, the point you are missing is that Manz never said this either. He asked you a question. YOU are the one calling it "against scum rolefishing". EITHER WAY THOUGH, my point was you being opportunistic about jumping on someone....not for what the argument was about.

5. Obviously it was not as clear as you think since that's not how I saw it.

6. When did I defend Scien? Did I do it in your mind? If you close your eyes really tight and hope it's true, does it then become true? Cuz if when I read my posts and if I read them correctly, I am accusing you, not defending anyone.

In the future, please do not make things up. How do you know my argument is hindered by sarcasm? Is it because I didn't get you to vote for yourself?
------------------------------------
Overall, I think your response to my points to be erratic and emotional. You're only digging a bigger whole when you post like that.

[ZEEnon]

According to some players I have been purposely ignoring questions, which I clearly have not.
I stated that I lacked internet access before, so I was not disregarding the questions that have been directed towards me.
I have went through what I missed in order to see what questions are being asked to me, hopefully I caught them all.

The problem with the question you asked is that instead of specifying your question to say 'mafia roles', you generalized and made it just 'roles', which also infers that he is rolefishing. So you put his post in a negative light, perhaps on purpose, perhaps unknowingly.

Yes, that is part of the issue of this whole mess I agree. He did generalize, and it will be hard to tell if this was intentional or unintentional at this point I agree. However I believe this post makes it sound like you were certain one way or the other, and I would like to ask you if that is the case:

I think his intentions were clearly to incriminate me.

This was my thought too while I read that post of his.

Yes, I do feel that the question was posed to cast suspicion on MonkeyMan576.

I fully realized this while I wrote that. Although I feel the argument could potentially be town vs. town, Manzcar is in actuality my top suspect. I'm not sure if that makes sense to you.

What you are saying now makes sense. However again, when you said it originally it sounded different than what you are saying now:

Reading through some more of their back-and-forth posts, I currently see the MonkeyMan576 and Manzcar argument as town vs. town, with MonkeyMan576 leaning the more likely town.

Not trying to give you too much of an out, but this might be because I am putting too much meaning into town-vs-town. What do you mean by that term. I am having an issue about how you can think an argument is town-vs-town, and have one of those 'town' be your cheif suspect.

I think in both of my quoted posts, I state that I think the

argument

itself is town-vs-town, not necessarily the players.
_________________________________________

Everything Skruffs said about me in post #233 makes no sense to me. All I see is that Skruffs thinks that I am possibly Scien's partner because he voted Raivann after I asked a question to Raivann. I'm also seeing that Skruffs thinks that I stalled the completely pointless question that Raivann asked me. The fact that Skruffs feels the question Raivann posed to me was actually "pretty good" makes me a bit more wary.

I singled your vote because your vote came immediately after Zeenon 'passed' on answering the question Raivann asked about why Zeenon thought you were 'null' if your behavior was striking him as both town AND scum. The implications seem pretty obvious to me.

Here Skruffs completely misinterprets Raivann's post, or is Raivann's partner trying to make it seem like his post had deeper meaning by saying that Raivann was asking me why I felt Scien's question could be seen as both town-like as well as scummy, when in actuality Raivann was only asking me why I bothered to post how I felt about Scien. How Skruffs drew that conclusion so confidently about what Raivann's post can mean one of two things normally. Either 1. He misread the post or 2. They are scum together. However, I don't feel that Scien and Skruffs would be aligned with each other as mafia currently and since I feel Scien is scum, I will not focus on this point. I would like it to be addressed by Skruffs however, and I would definitely like Skruffs to explain how he misinterpretted Raivann's post.

So ZEEnon saying that you were both pro town AND scummy SHOULD HAVE made him say, "And that's suspicious", instead of disregarding it in the same sentence.

Misinterpreted again, Skruffs. I said that Scien's question can be seen as both pro-town as well as scummy,
but never did I say both at the same time, nor which one I felt it was.

Number two, do I detect a whiff that you are happy about this?

This makes Scien look better since after his partner was modkilled I would have expected Scien-scum to have acted happy as well; definitely not question someone else about being happy.

How were we to know if your computer was broke or not. Even when you come in and tell us that's why you have been gone, how can we know that you are truthful. For all I knew you were keeping tabs and not contributing. In that case I needed to pressure in order to get you to talk.

The fact that you and a few others make the mistake of labelling it as lurking rather than inactivity makes me very suspicious.

On another note, I have decided against using yellow, and I am now using a darker pink.
My town-to-mafia list needs to be updated after today's review of mine.

[ZEEnon]

Update:

TOWN-ALIGNED

MonkeyMan576

- Confident Town

d3x

- Confident Town

cruelty

- Confident Town

Sweep/Chinaman

- Leaning Town

jasonT1981

- Neutral

Hero764

- Neutral

Fuzzyman

- Leaning Mafia

Dizzle

- Leaning Mafia

Manzcar/Skruffs

- Leaning Mafia

Scien

- Confident Mafia

MAFIA-ALIGNED

[Chinaman]

ZEE: So you don't agree with any of my points on MM? In fact, it looks like you completely and utterly disagree with them since MM is your top townie still. I guess I should ask if you are current on the game or not first. Are you current?

[jasonT1981]

gonna try my best to get caught up again, I am a few pages behind, still in and out of hospital and drugged up at the best of times, all while trying to play more than one game.

but still am not sure on Monkey, Hopefully a catch up will make my mind up fully.

Hopefully by tomorrow afternoon I will be caught up again.

[MonkeyMan576]

Sarcasm is a tool and one I use. Deal with it. Why wouldn't you take someone accusing you of being scum seriously? I happen to believe there is plenty of substance to my arguments and after that last post, I think you have only strengthened them.

If you have to use sarcasm to "strengthen" your argument, then it only shows your argument is weak to begin with.

1. I have to disagree. Who's scummier? Scien? Why? Cuz Zee said so? If ZEE changed his mind and said you were scummy, would you stay on Scien or find a way to get back on ZEE without it looking like OMGUS? (<--rhetorical questions)

Way to ask a question without actually asking a question.

2. Being on a wagon of scum does not make you town. Period. ESPECIALLY since we didn't get to see how it would have panned out due to him being modkilled and not lynched. Who knows, you could have easily flip flopped again.

How many times do I have to say I am not trying to "look town"? I am pointing out there are scummier players.

3. What? I don't even get this. Everyone's suspect, but when you go after someone it's balls to the wall. I would hope nobody would rule me out. That's buddying and scummy. Only scum have info on what side others are on. I don't even get where the second part of that came from......how would you even be able to accuse me of that? Because I go out of my way to say "hey, look at all the town things I'm doing" as I do them?? No wait, that's you.

So now you're reverting to a "I know you are but what am I argument"

4. wow....did I ever once say anything close to being against "scum rolefishing"? First of all, I'm not sure that town can actually tell the difference between standard rolefishing or "scum rolefishing". In fact, I'm at a loss on what the difference is or even how to go about fishing for scum roles. Aside from that, the point you are missing is that Manz never said this either. He asked you a question. YOU are the one calling it "against scum rolefishing". EITHER WAY THOUGH, my point was you being opportunistic about jumping on someone....not for what the argument was about.

You were attacking me for scum rolefishing(saying my interaction with Manczar was scummy). According to you I can only attack you if I have your permission.

5. Obviously it was not as clear as you think since that's not how I saw it.

Well, that was the point, and if you had asked rather than jumping to conclusions(which you are doing a lot of), then you would have realized that.

6. When did I defend Scien? Did I do it in your mind? If you close your eyes really tight and hope it's true, does it then become true? Cuz if when I read my posts and if I read them correctly, I am accusing you, not defending anyone.

There you go, using sarcasm again, thinking it strengthens your argument. You are attacking the Scien wagon, and therefore defending him by proxy.


[Quote="chinaman]In the future, please do not make things up. How do you know my argument is hindered by sarcasm? Is it because I didn't get you to vote for yourself?
------------------------------------
Overall, I think your response to my points to be erratic and emotional. You're only digging a bigger whole when you post like that.

[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

I don't think so, my arguments are much more logical than yours. If anyone is digging themselves a hole it's you.

[Chinaman]

Well, time and other posters will tell.

[StrangerCoug]

Amished replaces Hero764.

[Amished]

Hey there. Deadline in 2 days, I'll mostly be looking at the top vote-getters, just FYI. (Noted Monkey, Scien, ZEE; all of which I've played with in various circumstances). Reading now.

[Amished]

Heh, thinking back, I've seen all three as scum, Monkey twice as scum. Good deal. Page 8.

[Fuzzyman]

My vote remains on ZEEnon; I seem to be the only one noticing that he still hasn't justified what looks like it will be his deadline vote.

I dislike Monkey's most recent post.

If you have to use sarcasm to "strengthen" your argument, then it only shows your argument is weak to begin with.

He didn't state that sarcasm strengthened his argument. He stated that you ought to deal with his sarcasm, and that other things you said in your previous post had strengthened his argument.

Way to ask a question without actually asking a question.

Yet it is a question that goes by you unanswered.

How many times do I have to say I am not trying to "look town"? I am pointing out there are scummier players.

I'm inclined to disagree based on your Post 399.

So now you're reverting to a "I know you are but what am I argument"

And a correct one at that.

You were attacking me for scum rolefishing(saying my interaction with Manczar was scummy). According to you I can only attack you if I have your permission.

What abyss did this come from? You completely ignore Chinaman's point.

I don't think so, my arguments are much more logical than yours. If anyone is digging themselves a hole it's you.

This, on the other hand, is an incorrect, "I know what you are, but what am I?" argument.

If Monkey leads the polls near deadline, I'm not opposed to throwing down the hammer.

[ZEEnon]

Amished, what game have I played with you, and what game have I played with you as scum?
You

may

have played with me before but i'm pretty sure that unless you were on an alt, I did not play with you as scum on this site.

[Fuzzyman]

Nice job procrastinating on the Scien case.

[Amished]

I replaced into Inventor Mafia after you replaced out. However, I misremembered and thought that your replace-ee was scum when they weren't. Zazier was the one that was scum in that game that I pegged. Actually, your "Z" names made me confused while in that game as well.

Anyways, here's my (copied) list of people (from the OP), and my thoughts on what they should do:

cruelty - calm down, reread what monkey said after a night away, and start over. It's pretty clear that you weren't seeing what Monkey said correctly.

Dizzle - Post more, especially on your suspects. Double especially on people other than MMan.

d3x - Not too bad, other than voting for the wrong person.

Fuzzyman - post more, period. Christ.

jasonT1981 - Is he here? I'd say post more than what you have by 8, maybe 18.

Skruffs - not too bad.

MonkeyMan576 - be less emotional when posting. I see where you're coming from, but a lot of the details are being lost in translation I believe.

Scien - Hi, keep being scum.

Chinaman - {refer to Scien's comment}

ZEEnon - Hi, keep up the great work.

Clearly, Scien is scum; Chinaman is almost certainly scum as well. MMan is nothing like I've seen him as scum, and he's been under plenty of pressure in scumgames that I've been in with him. ZEEnon (other than one "read" thing concerning Raiv's ISO being different from me) has been spot on with his posts. Oh, and I think his (ZEE's) read of Scien's response to Raiv dying is wrong, but I can see where he is coming from there as well.

Hell, Chinaman's "case" against MMan in 409 should be enough to convince everyone that Chinaman is not aligned with MMan, and Chinaman isn't town in this argument.

However, Scien has more tells that he's scum, as well as more of a connection with Raiv (our only current scumflip) so he's my choice for today's lynch; as well as being on the actual somewhat-high votegetter list.

Unvote

(if necessary, I don't think it is)

Vote: Scien