/in-Vitational Game 5, Simon Mafia 2: Game Over before 832

[LlamaFluff]

ZazieR wasn't a non-candidate. The point is that LF went for a non-candidate, not TDC. TDC did what you did, and I didn't get on him, SpyreX did.

Its self-preservation due to the fact that I am trying to wagon shift at the last minute. It is just not the best course of action if that was my ultimate goal is the point people are trying to make.

[Battousai]

Just sitting there?

1) I called Elmo scum, and LF town based on the fact Elmo said the LF lynch seemed inevitable (apparently seemed and are, are totally different for Elmo). Guess what, his vote is still on him...

2) I think you are scum, therefore I don't see my vote switching from you

[petroleumjelly]

Official Day Three Vote Count #8

4 – LlamaFluff (Elmo, TDC, forbiddanlight, Debonair Danny DiPietro)
2 – Debonair Danny DiPietro (LlamaFluff, Lord Gurgi)
2 – TDC (SpyreX, Battousai)

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch and

3

to lynch at deadline. Deadline is October 10, 9:59 pm CDT.

Not Voting – 1 – Goatrevolt

---

LOCK COUNT

6 – Green (Goatrevolt, Lord Gurgi, forbiddanlight, SpyreX, Debonair Danny DiPietro, LlamaFluff)
0 – Blue
0 – Red
0 – Yellow

Not Locking – 3 – Battousai, Elmo, TDC

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lock a floor.

At nightfall, the floor to be locked is: GREEN.

[Elmo]

Lock: Green

and that Elmo has a bad feeling about it but isn't doing anything against it

I said nothing resembling that

This is me being shocked about where Gurgi's vote is right now. There's no way I'm voting Danny over Fluff, and I thought TDC was a bit townish when talking to me similar to Goat, so vote stays. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to be distancing myself from this lynch when I haven't said anything bad about it? This is a little silly; I should probably just have lurked out the deadline, obv.

(apparently seemed and are, are totally different for Elmo)

Durr?

[Goatrevolt]

And then, of all people, it's GR who disassembles the Fluff wagon. With the reasoning that Gurgi isn't joining it (wasn't that the reason to think they were BOTH scum just a few posts ago?) and that Elmo has a bad feeling about it but isn't doing anything against it (isn't that exactly what Gurgi has been doing to give GR the idea of them being scum together?).

Multiple reasons. One is that there were two people content to let the wagon go while not being happy about it. Screams mislynch. Originally I thought Gurgi and Fluff were scum together, but Gurgi wasn't pushing in another direction, and Fluff's lynch become almost inevitable. If Gurgi/Fluff were scum together, Gurgi would jump on board for the bus, if he wasn't going to push elsewhere. The combination of that and Elmo's statement, which was kind of like an "oh well, guess we'll lynch Llama" and the Llama wagon started to look pretty poor. I also felt like both Gurgi and Elmo were sowing the seeds of a future mislynch on me as well. Gurgi with his "I'm not sure if this is scum driven or not" and Elmo with repeatedly wondering why people considered me town.

I personally think it's, because those that are trying to derail the Fluff wagon can't convincingly sell voting me.
GR certainly couldn't. Not sure about Gurgi, think if he wanted to, he could do it and not take too much flak.
So yeah, Fluff-scum would look bad for GR, as far as I'm concerned.

This paragraph assumes I'm scum. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Numerous players in this game keep asserting or suggesting that I'm scum or "could be scum" (same thing, really) but are unwilling or unable to provide any reasons behind it.

Why would Fluff being scum look bad for me? Why do you even assume I want to sell voting for you when I have spent a few posts today trying to suggest that people

don't

vote you. This is getting absurd.

TDC: I assume you want Llama to be lynched then? You didn't really say much but left your vote on. Originally this was a self-preservation vote, what is it now?

I would like to lynch either Gurgi or Elmo today. They are the two with the worst stances in regards to Llama, who I think is more likely town than scum at this point. I would like everyone to weigh in on whether or not you are willing to support either of these candidates.

As it stands now, I will vote Fluff over either of the other two players with votes, but there is time to wagon elsewhere.

Also, I want to see what Gurgi has to say about his DDD vote.

[Lord Gurgi]

You've completely reversed your reads, and all at the last minute, because of what other people are doing at the last minute. I just can't help but see all this as hypocrisy. You're starting a new direction the day before deadline, because you say other people are starting in new directions at the last minute. How simply can I say it?

You've connected yourself to Fluff. You hopped onto the wagon. You tried to kill the wagon, you accused me of trying to distance myself from the wagon, and Elmo of going along with it. Then you said that Fluff was town because of this, and now you want to lynch Elmo and me. You've managed to completely reverse your position, and along the way you've been firing buckshot. It's a really obvious connection.

I get that you want to know about my vote. I do. You don't need to continue on like this.

[Elmo]

I would like to lynch either Gurgi or Elmo today. They are the two with the worst stances in regards to Llama, who I think is more likely town than scum at this point.

This has nothing to do with you thinking I'm being all devious in your direction?

[TDC]

Just sitting there?

Sorry, hyperboled a bit. You just don't seem particularly interested in what happens with the Fluff wagon. Perhaps you're hoping the DDD wagon and the Fluff wagon will steal each over votes and, miraculously, my wagon will come out on top or whatever.

Multiple reasons. One is that there were two people content to let the wagon go while not being happy about it. Screams mislynch. Originally I thought Gurgi and Fluff were scum together, but Gurgi wasn't pushing in another direction, and Fluff's lynch become almost inevitable. If Gurgi/Fluff were scum together, Gurgi would jump on board for the bus, if he wasn't going to push elsewhere. The combination of that and Elmo's statement, which was kind of like an "oh well, guess we'll lynch Llama" and the Llama wagon started to look pretty poor. I also felt like both Gurgi and Elmo were sowing the seeds of a future mislynch on me as well. Gurgi with his "I'm not sure if this is scum driven or not" and Elmo with repeatedly wondering why people considered me town.

Okay so first you think Fluff is scum.
Then you think Gurgi is his buddy because he's not joining the wagon despite being suspicious of him.
Then you think they can't be scum together, because Gurgi would jump on when Fluff's lynch seems to go through.
And then you conclude that Fluff is probably town and Gurgi is probably scum.

Do you see what happened here? You added something to Fluff-scum, removed it again, and come out with Fluff-town and Gurgi-scum.
I'm really not getting it.

This paragraph assumes I'm scum. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Numerous players in this game keep asserting or suggesting that I'm scum or "could be scum" (same thing, really) but are unwilling or unable to provide any reasons behind it.

Why would Fluff being scum look bad for me? Why do you even assume I want to sell voting for you when I have spent a few posts today trying to suggest that people

don't

vote you. This is getting absurd.

I'll try to make this clearer:
You can't save Fluff by voting me, it would completely contradict your earlier play (we seem to agree on this).
You can save him, by voting someone who isn't me.
Like, uhh.. DDD. Conveniently, Fluff, instead of voting me (whom he suspected all along and is suddenly very unsure about), starts a wagon on DDD.
Fast forward to deadline, and you can easily vote DDD over Fluff.
Of course, all that only makes sense if Fluff is scum.

Or that's what I assumed (unvotes tend to send the message you're not interesting in lynching whom you voted previously anymore..).
But you're now claiming you will vote Fluff over DDD.

TDC: I assume you want Llama to be lynched then? You didn't really say much but left your vote on. Originally this was a self-preservation vote, what is it now?

Half self-preservation, half "if these were two town wagons, how could his ever fall apart like that this close to deadline?"

I would like to lynch either Gurgi or Elmo today. They are the two with the worst stances in regards to Llama, who I think is more likely town than scum at this point. I would like everyone to weigh in on whether or not you are willing to support either of these candidates.

What's the difference between Gurgi and you?
Your arguments for not being on the wagon right now are kind of the same, aren't they?

[TDC]

I suppose Gurgi found clearer words for what I tried to say than I could.

[Elmo]

One is that there were two people content to let the wagon go while not being happy about it. Screams mislynch.

If one of these is me, this is wrong and pretty much in direct opposition to what I posted.

[Goatrevolt]

Okay so first you think Fluff is scum.
Then you think Gurgi is his buddy because he's not joining the wagon despite being suspicious of him.
Then you think they can't be scum together, because Gurgi would jump on when Fluff's lynch seems to go through.
And then you conclude that Fluff is probably town and Gurgi is probably scum.

Do you see what happened here? You added something to Fluff-scum, removed it again, and come out with Fluff-town and Gurgi-scum.
I'm really not getting it.

Here's the timeline...

1. I think Fluff is scum.
2. I think Gurgi is a scum buddy for pushing him repeatedly on days when Fluff wasn't under scrutiny by others and then making no move to get on when Fluff finally does come under pressure.

Intercession: Fluff moves from 2 votes to 4 votes.

3. At this point Gurgi has made no move to make an alternate push or attempt to cash home on the Llama wagon. If he is scum, I expect one of the two to occur. Otherwise, he completely throws away any credibility he attempted to create by pushing Fluff in the first place. This right here suggests they are not scum together.

4. Unrelated to 1-3, I think Fluff is town. This is brought about by my look around the town. I see Gurgi unwilling to jump on the wagon he tried to build for 2 days. I see Elmo express at the

very least

a neutral attitude toward lynching Llama but keep his vote on anyway. He later suggests that he is "not a fan" of how the Llama wagon is going, but keeps his vote on regardless. He has kept that vote on despite suggesting a flawed "inevitability" theory that was shot down and stated dislike of the wagon.

This does not give me a good feeling about hitting scum. Is this wrong? Am I stupid? I'm simply playing off of what I see.

I'll try to make this clearer:
You can't save Fluff by voting me, it would completely contradict your earlier play (we seem to agree on this).
You can save him, by voting someone who isn't me.
Like, uhh.. DDD. Conveniently, Fluff, instead of voting me (whom he suspected all along and is suddenly very unsure about), starts a wagon on DDD.
Fast forward to deadline, and you can easily vote DDD over Fluff.
Of course, all that only makes sense if Fluff is scum.

STOP. STOP. STOPPPPPPP.

This is like some sort of circle of fallacy. You say it in the last sentence, but seriously...

You are using me jumping off the Fluff wagon (the Fluff wagon falling apart) to suggest that Fluff is scum. You are using your newfound stance that Fluff is scum to suggest that I am scum with him, because I jumped off the Fluff wagon. Therefore I am scum because I jumped off of the Fluff wagon, making him scum, making me scum.

If anything is a fallacy, this is it. I'm too tired to decide what it is, but it kind of strikes me as a "using the conclusion to prove the conclusion" kind of a fallacy.

You've completely reversed your reads, and all at the last minute, because of what other people are doing at the last minute. I just can't help but see all this as hypocrisy. You're starting a new direction the day before deadline, because you say other people are starting in new directions at the last minute. How simply can I say it?

This is not true. It has nothing to do with new directions. It has entirely to do with how people interacted with Llama.

Reversing my reads because of how other people are acting? Well, fuck me. Isn't that how we're supposed to play this game?

-------

I'm not voting DDD. I've already said this.

[Goatrevolt]

One is that there were two people content to let the wagon go while not being happy about it. Screams mislynch.

If one of these is me, this is wrong and pretty much in direct opposition to what I posted.

Elmo:

SpyreX, why do you want to hammer?

Questioning the hammer is not how someone acts toward a wagon they are fine with.

Llama, can you give any reasoning behind any of the reads? Like, one of LG and TDC being scum. I just want to hear what you're thinking, really.

Questioning Llama for reads, suggests that you are not sold to the wagon.

I think it's fairly inevitable that fluffy gets lynched at this point. Derp.

Calling a wagon "fairly inevitable" suggests a mentality that you are unhappy with the wagon. If you liked the Llama wagon and it was fairly inevitable, then that is a good thing, not something to bring up at the end of a "woe is me, I have no reads" paragraph.

I'm also not a fan of how the wagon's going; I actually considering unvoting and voting SpyreX in that post, but like I said, it looked/looks fairly inevitable, though, so meh.

Self-explanatory. Really.

No, this is not an excuse. If you unvote, TDC and Fluff will be tied in votes. If you voted SpyreX he would also be tied in votes. I refuse to accept this as valid.

I thought he was on four, and I don't/didn't expect anyone to show up and care before deadline. Shrug.

I present you with the information that Llama's lynch is NOT inevitable, and in fact that your vote by itself could cause a tie or even someone else to be the vote leader, and you simply explain your earlier stance, yet still make no move off of Fluff.

-------------

I don't think it is far-fetched at all to suggest the idea that Elmo is not enthralled with the Fluff wagon, but yet has remained on board.

[Elmo]

Questioning the hammer is not how someone acts toward a wagon they are fine with.

That's pretty weasel-worded. I asked why he wanted to hammer, I didn't object to him doing it.

Questioning Llama for reads, suggests that you are not sold to the wagon.

How does it suggest that?

Calling a wagon "fairly inevitable" suggests a mentality that you are unhappy with the wagon.

If you actually read my post, that is right after I talk about not showing up to decide what I wanted to do. The decision's been made for me, as far as I could see.

I'm also not a fan of how the wagon's going; I actually considering unvoting and voting SpyreX in that post, but like I said, it looked/looks fairly inevitable, though, so meh.

Self-explanatory. Really.

Well, no. I considered switching my vote, and didn't. What I didn't like about it was (I'm going from memory) that it seemed like a bunch of people showed up and tossed votes on without having a particularly good reason to suspect him. I thought Danny's vote was pretty bad.

Saying I am "not enthralled" with it is probably literally true. I think it's the best wagon at the moment.

[TDC]

If anything is a fallacy, this is it. I'm too tired to decide what it is, but it kind of strikes me as a "using the conclusion to prove the conclusion" kind of a fallacy.

Meh, you're not the only one trying to derail the wagon. It's more some kind of force-feedback loop than a perpetuum mobile.

[TDC]

GR: Of Gurgi and Elmo, which would you prefer to lynch? Why?
Do you think you can possibly start a wagon in the few hours left?

[TDC]

And what do you think about DDD? I assume you have some sort of town read on him?

[Goatrevolt]

GR: Of Gurgi and Elmo, which would you prefer to lynch? Why?

Honestly, I don't know. I'd really be fine just lynching either.

Do you think you can possibly start a wagon in the few hours left?

Nobody seemed too enthusiastic about it when I suggested the idea a day or so ago.

At this point, I think it is unlikely that I can do anything to change the lynch away from Llama. I hope you all are right, and hope that you remember what I said today in the case that I am right.

And what do you think about DDD? I assume you have some sort of town read on him?

This is correct.

[Elmo]

I think it's ironic that you criticised me for thinking LF's lynch looked inevitable and then say that it is pretty much 24(?) hours later. I also think it's ironic that if you're feeling conspiratorial, it makes far more sense for you to be setting me up (with town Llama) at this point than vice versa. I dunno why you think I'd want to try and get you lynched tomorrow as opposed to some lower hanging town fruit considering the state of people's opinions. But whatever.

I do find Gurgi's behaviour around Llama weird. We only need three to lynch - how'd you like it if you and me voted Gurgi, now? I don't have a strong preference between the two, but no-one wanted to wagon him previously. I remember thinking he was a bit off a while ago, but I don't really know why.

[LlamaFluff]

I think deadline has passed though...

Look at LG-TDC tomorrow, I still think that pairing has scum in it. Spy-GR still make me feel uneasy, but it nothing I can really put down a solid reason for. Batt is most town to me, if DDD or TDC is scum, it bump up elmo-scum chances, but Im still not sure on him.

So bah go town and whatnot

[Elmo]

Nope, four hours 44 minutes. Until 10pm Central Daylight Time.

[Elmo]

Blah, I hope that wasn't obviously fake.

unvote, vote Lord Gurgi

for now?

Anyone?

[Lord Gurgi]

Hi. Just checking in before the deadline. Homecoming last night and SATs today and I'm really tired. LF isn't acting how I would expect. Goat just seems to have completely changed since a week ago.

Unvote

(Not hammering LF)

[Battousai]

Anyone up for an Elmo lynch or TDC lynch? There's three of us here that can swing it that way (LF, myself, LG).

[LlamaFluff]

Well ok then... I think last time I have guarenteed access before deadline is about now. There is a small chance I can get another post in, but I think this is it.

Still stand by what I said before, if I get access near deadline I might change votes, but it would really only move under basically ideal wagon circumstances. Either way I think my lynch might be the best for town today. I am not a PR, I am not on green, and there are a whole lot of people attached to me

[TDC]

Not buying the "oh I'm lynched" thing. If Fluff just forgot about the magic of timezones he'd think the deadline was further away than it actually is, seeing how he is located farther to the west.

Gurgi: How would you expect Fluff to act?