Mini 862 ~ Mafia of Order (Game Over!)

[Juls]

@Cobalotty (since you two are attached at the hip)

I said that Sotty was jumping on other people's arguments not giving her own. And that she is behaving similar to the way she did in Vipod as scum. I will admit it isn't a lot to go on but we have a very short amount of time to do a lynch and I am just not on board with VP Baltar right now. I usually can tell when VP is scum and I haven't got scum vibes from him yet.

@DTMaster/Cobalt
2) DTMaster suspicion was an attempt to see if anyone else was seeing what I am seeing. This is one of my weaknesses in Mafia. I see things that I can't put into words but I will try....It is mostly to do with how he just gives opinions without really adding much. His first couple posts were lots of "I agree" and "I second this" type posts. It feels like safe play and trying to stay active.

Keep on accusing me of fence sitting Cobalt I don't care. The game is on page 6 and I am sorry I don't have it all figured out yet. You clearly do since you have managed to cast six votes in as many pages. Unfortunately, I don't think you are scum.

[Goatrevolt]

I've never played with DTMaster before, but he strikes me as the kind of player who probably plays this same analytical game as either alignment. There is one thing I'm curious about, though.

DT, what do you expect to gain by testing Cobalts role? Do you think having the role confirms him as town? If the answer to that question is no, then there is no inherent value in testing him, if the test yields no useful results. If the answer is yes, then can you explain what about the role confirms him?

Sens: From my experience, people who think their role is going to clear them (especially for reasons like "I'm the protagonist in X") are usually town. I continue to fail to understand the reason people think this is some giant scum tell. At best, null tell.

I think Juls is town.

[Locke Lamora]

Cobalt: the win condition for the mafia is kill all other factions? Specifically that wording?

Juls: why were you interested in seeing whether others saw the same thing as you were seeing with DTMaster? Would it have led you to vote for him if they did?

[VP Baltar]

I agree wholeheartedly with Goat's post 128. Kmd really seems to be phoning in his performance this game and I don't like it.

Cobalt continues his underwhelming performance of nonsense and I really hate the fact that he has spent 25 posts, claimed and done very little of what I consider good scumhunting.

Hey, LL and DDD, do you think I am the best lynch today? If so, please explain why.

Keep in mind that we only have four days until deadline and a unanimous lynch is necessary.

Right now, I think ACSN, DDD or Kmd lynch is a good idea and I would back any of them.

[DTMaster]

@DDD/KMD/Goat

To me discussion is invaluable, and Colbalt's post transfering allows protown players to discuss more. Discussion is one of the key weapons for the town. To me you three read as people trying to stop him before we can verify bits of Colbalt's claim.

It's like lynching an uncounter claimed PR, all PR roles should be tested from day 2 onwards.

While this is a theme game: I want to give you this meta game known as Foggy Londontown where town lynched the unCCed doctor and lost both hider and lovers over 1 day. I'd prefer to not repeat that mistake again and leave all PR claims for day 2 onwards to test.

I acknowledge that it doesn't necessarily mean Colbalt is clear, but it makes his claim more valid. In terms of flavour, the only person who can sacrafice in the game is Miciach. If he is lying then he wouldn't be able to use such an ability (ie if this is his real fake claim). If the target he gave his posts to die tomorrow then we can carry the case again since it reads as: fake claim with opprotunistic target.

In any case day 2 is the best way to deal with unCCed PRs and I would apply this to Colbalt. Do you three not agree?

Plus if this is scum-Cobalt giving away free posts to people, we would just do a voting analysis on him when he runs out. it would become evident in his votes to reveal his scumminess.

@Juls
No comments to my post on you? If you can point out how I am just agreeing and disagreeing by playing safe then make this case. As far as I know I've taken the extreme in the Colbalt lynch/vs no lynch debate and say: I dislike a Colbalt lynch today, and we can reevaulate tomorrow.

Preferably if you want to point fingers do so at KMD. If anything he has done the same thing with less analysis. I smell tunneling here.

@ACSN
Scumlist and your thoughts on my plan.

Unvote

Vote A Cold Stary Night

[Cobalt]

Locke: not those exact words but a semantically identical phrase.
VP: No scumhunting? I already found scum in you, juls, ACSN, and mebbe sens.

@anyone doubting my ability is worth testing: how does this ability make any sense for scum? what could be lost by testing it?

[VP Baltar]

VP: No scumhunting? I already found scum in you, juls, ACSN, and mebbe sens.

Well, from my perspective, you are probably wrong about at least three of those people, so yes, your scumhunting has been non-existant in the sense that it is useless.

^Someone other than Cobalt on this wagon is scum.

I agree, I would lynch DDD right now if you want.

Define "phoning in".

Not actively questioning and pushing cases based on facts. You seem a bit lost.

Deadline coming up and you want to support 2 lynches that aren't even close to happening?

We have plenty of time to get a wagon going. If we only had 24 hrs left, then I could see your point. Wanna get on the ACSN wagon or DDD?

[Goatrevolt]

Hey, you saw me replace into a game, vote scum, track a cult recruit, but lose the result due to being NK'd N1 in a game I hadn't even caught up on yet. My gut is very impressive.

To be fair, you directly asked me "who is scum?" I told you, then you voted that person, who was scum.

I've given reasons on Cobalt. DDD is meta/gut/connection-to-Cobalt. Fuzzy is gut.

I'll have to look back at these Cobalt reasons, because I don't remember them.

VP Baltar (L-3) ~ Debonair Danny DiPietro, Locke Lamora, Sotty7, Cobalt

^Someone other than Cobalt on this wagon is scum.

Cobalt is very unlikely to be scum. If he's scum, he's also extremely stupid, and generally when you have to make assumptions like that in order to keep your scum-read, it means you're wrong. If he is scum, I will be surprised.

I could see any of the other 3 on that wagon being scum, though. Locke, especially, who seems to be playing no different than the abandoned game I saw him in where he was scum. I don't have much of a read on DDD or Sotty, but neither have struck me as pro-town this game.

[VP Baltar]

I hate to spend a post on this, but I really disagree with the argument that we have no time to lynch anyone else apart from cobalt or ACSN.

I want everyone in their next post (including you kmd since you didn't really answer my question) to expressly state, yes or no, if they would be willing to lynch DDD before deadline on Saturday.

I for one would.

[Cobalt]

Um, why can't we lynch YOU, VP?
I'd be okay with a ACSN lynch too. Not so much for DDD, I think Locke has lurked more if we want to roll that way.
Kmd, I'm uncounterclaimed as the game's protagonist with a pro-town, confirmable ability. You shouldn't be wasting your vote on me.

[Cobalt]

explain how engineering a bandwagon on myself then making what you feel is an unreliable claim is a scum move. then when you can't, move your vote to VPscum, who wanted to lynch me for being third party (something scum wants to do and town does not want to do).

[Cobalt]

lol, do you really think I'd have let a bandwagon build on myself like that? I revealed my safe-claim, asked for role info, vote-hopped, and overrreacted to votes on me. I manufactured the bandwagon, as I already explained back on like page 4. Kmd, you should read the game. And then vote VP. Because he's scum.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Hey, LL and DDD, do you think I am the best lynch today? If so, please explain why.

I wouldn't be voting for you if I didn't think you were the best lynch right now. Besides my discomfort with your early vote, unvote pattern you simply aren't reading pro-town to me. You say I'm always scum when we play, I saw you're always town and always obvtown at that, the fact that you aren't this game says scum to me.

@DDD/KMD/Goat

To me discussion is invaluable, and Colbalt's post transfering allows protown players to discuss more. Discussion is one of the key weapons for the town. To me you three read as people trying to stop him before we can verify bits of Colbalt's claim.

It's like lynching an uncounter claimed PR, all PR roles should be tested from day 2 onwards.

I've said that I'm not lynching Cobalt today, period, so I don't know why I'm included in this group. Like almost any ability you can come up with, it's not only a town role, so while it'd be nice to confirm the ability it doesn't do much of anything in regards to Cobalt's town/scum issues.

~~~

Not an issue that feels smart to raise, but odd how KMD has gone from I'm scum with gut/meta/connection reasons behind it to saying he won't be voting for me today. I mean I guess from his perspective it makes sense to test the make believe connection between myself and Cobalt, but it certaintly doesn't mesh well with his earlier confidence.

[Vi]

We've been violated! Daein robbed us of families, friends, and homes! We cannot reconcile with monsters! And now, our hated enemy is rebuilding to threaten us again. Will we stand by and accept this?

Vote Count:

VP Baltar (L-3) ~ Debonair Danny DiPietro, Locke Lamora, Sotty7, Cobalt
a cold starry night (L-3) ~ VP Baltar, fuzzylightning, Goatrevolt, DTMaster

Cobalt (L-4) ~ SensFan, Kmd4390, a cold starry night
Sotty7 (L-6) ~ Juls

Debonair Danny DiPietro (L-7) ~

DTMaster

--With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
--Deadline is Saturday, October 17 2009.

(4 days left)

Post Count:

a cold starry night - 8
Cobalt - 29
Debonair Danny DiPietro - 4
DTMaster - 7
fuzzylightning - 6
Goatrevolt - 14
Juls - 6
Kmd4390 - 12
Locke Lamora - 4
SensFan - 18
Sotty7 - 4
VP Baltar - 12

[Juls]

Kmd, I'm uncounterclaimed as the game's protagonist with a pro-town, confirmable ability. You shouldn't be wasting your vote on me.

Statements like this are one of the biggest reasons that I WANT to lynch you. Just because you are a "good guy" in the flavor doesn't mean it translates exactly the same way in the game. Vi being the Mod makes this even more true. A flavor argument isn't going to save your scummy ass, k?

I don't like this post AT ALL. This reads like someone that doesn't know the town flavor. I can't see Vi splitting up the good guys to be on different teams. What I COULD see Vi doing, however, is leaving out the central character of Micaha because they are so obvtown. So I don't give Cobalt a free pass but I really don't like what you are selling here Kmd.

@Juls
No comments to my post on you? If you can point out how I am just agreeing and disagreeing by playing safe then make this case. As far as I know I've taken the extreme in the Colbalt lynch/vs no lynch debate and say: I dislike a Colbalt lynch today, and we can reevaulate tomorrow.

I was addressing you in post 132, is there something specific you are wanting me to address?

@VP: I am not on board for a DDD wagon at this time. I would be willing to vote Sotty, KMD, or DTMaster right now.

[saberwolf]

This is Saberwolf replacing for a cold starry night

[Cobalt]

Yes, there is motivation to act scummy. I can see who hops on the bandwagon with poor reasoning. I can see who builds a case and who is going with the crowd. I can see who wants to lynch me because they think I'm scum and who wants to lynch be because I'm a good target. I can see who's playing town motivations and who's playing scum motivations, and if I die and flip town, so can all of you.

note: since that last hypothetical will inevitably be misinterpreted, the "if" applies to "if I die" (I don't expect to) not "if I flip town" (I will).

[SensFan]

Cobalt is as obvscum as it gets.

*Claims to have acted scummy on purpose
*Very quick claim
*Gets annoyed at anyone who even thinks his claim he thinks clears him doesn't
*"When I flip Town..."
*Massive OMGUS
*Joined 3ish months ago

The first 5 are classic newbscum tells. The sixth validates that newbscum tells are reliable.

He's Scum. Lynch him.

[Goatrevolt]

If Cobalt is scum he's freaking stupid. This means he admitted to having a false-claim as scum, then spills us the scum win condition for "confirmation" and he was eager to claim early day 1 (what scum are eager to claim early day 1???). It's much simpler and easier to assume that he's town. This isn't even considering the fact that I think his claim to be the protagonist and the manner in which he claimed to be obvious town indicators. Obvious.

Let me debunk some common misconceptions:

1. Thinking your claim saves you means you're scum: Bullshit. Town do this far more than scum, who don't expect their claims to save them. I'm flabbergasted this is even a point, let alone one of the main pushes behind the wagon. Relying on your claim as the protagonist to save you is a

classic

town tell. I'm simply amazed this is being toted as a scum-tell.

2. Claims to have acted scummy on purpose. This is just dumb, as either alignment, really. I would say this is the one legit point of the wagon, but it's hardly a selling point, as there is such little motivation to make a play like this as either alignment.

3. Very quick claim. Honestly, this fits perfectly with the mentality of someone who has the ultimate "pro-town" nameclaim. People get eager to claim when their claim will save them. Not a scum tell at all.

4. "When I flip town..." Umm... Sens, that is terrible. That's the kind of thing townies say All. The. Time.

5. "Massive OMGUS." It's not OMGUS if he has reasons behind it, nor is OMGUS a scum tell anyway. OMGUS hits scum about 13.2% of the time. It's seriously a terrible scum-tell (terrible because it

isn't

a scum tell), and I'm surprised it's even being used.

6. Joined 3-ish months ago. His play this game doesn't suggest that he's a noob. I don't see a noob using someone not understanding the town win condition as a point of attack. Are you seriously looking at join date alone as a gauge? I convincingly won both of my first two games on this site, despite joining both with a join date of 2 weeks prior. I had played a bunch off-site prior to joining and was not a noob.

-----

There are so many better wagons that can be had right now.

KMD: Do you think ACSN is town or scum and why?

I am not going to wagon DDD before deadline, and also I will be gone that entire Saturday with a friend, so Friday night is the last I will post before deadline.

[saberwolf]

Ok, so I've caught up, and I shall do the following:

unvote:Cobalt

FoS:everyone who wants cobalt lynched day 1

Vote:Sensfan

Cobalt has made a very elaborate claim, one that is very hard to manufacture ahead of time, and requires a lot of cooperation night 0, which I doubt would happen if he was scum. A lot of what he says fits with the flavour, and I personally would like to see him prove his claim.

Sensfan is playing very moronically, and to be honest that's not the sensfan I know. I haven't played any games with Sens that I can recall, but I personally know him [he lives down the hall from me], and we discuss mafia and stuff, and I know he's smarter than this. My only issue with my vote would be the question of why would he set himself up in a sacrifice to take out a vital player? I mean there should be better roles out there like cop, and if scum sacrifices themselves for the greater evil, all it takes is one lucky investigation to win the game. However, in the end I have to place my vote here for a couple of reasons:

1.) He is obv not bothering to read the rules, and is playing the ignorant card. Several times Cobalt has brought up that according to rules such and such is possible or is not possible. Sensfan has spent his entire time arguing this.

2.)

Vote Cobalt

Let's get a serious wagon going as soon as possible to ensure that we don't waste any posts. My guess is that the scum in this game are going to be interested in pulling people into arguments that require a lot of posting, especially if anyone becomes a major threat to them.

This quote applies with Sensfan. He's been wasting posts and causing others to waste their posts over very stupid arguments.

btw the above quote is why i dont think VP and Sens are scumbuddies, it's too moronic of a lynch setup.

I have a theory which I will withhold for now, but I have one thing I'd like to know...

Sensfan, post count claim please.

[saberwolf]

First of all, I don't give a rat's ass about the flavour of this game.

Second of all, I don't know who the fuck Cloud is.

Third of all, finish your Massaih (or wtf you claimed) claim.
Fourth of all, make your other full claim.
Fifth of all, explain why Town got a fake claim.
Sixth of all, I've read that exchange with even the benefit of hindsight, I still see it as claiming 3rd-party, especially with all the insistance that we should leave whoever the 3rd-party is alive.

LYNCHLYNCHLYNCH.

another reason why I voted you in the bold, as everyone should know who the fuck the great and mighty cloud is

Wasn't he the archetype for all emo protagonists? The one that players started to hate because he reminded them of themselves? ~Vi

[Goatrevolt]

Saberwolf, do you have anything to say about the wagon on your predecessor?

[SensFan]

*shrug*

On the contrary to his view of me, saber is playing just as I would expect him to. Not looking too deeply into the situation, and making statements from a face-value read of the game.

For example, he claims that I have not read the rules, when I have been very clear in explaining that none of the rules say that we don't need to lynch the person that isn't Town or Scum.

He goes on to assume that I am sacrificing myself. The belief that someone who leads a lynch on someone that ends up being Town (from saber's PoV) must be lynched afterwards is also something I would expect of someone newer to the game.

Thirdly, he is falling right in line with the idea that Cobalt is fucking confirmed on Day 1. I honestly can't see how anyone can take seriously the ideas of someone who posts "FoS:everyone who wants cobalt lynched day 1".

Oh, and if he had read the thread as carefully as he accuses me of not having done, he'd know I don't plan on claiming a post count.

[saberwolf]

I know you don't plan on it, which is why I'm trying to force you to.

also, you are correct of me to a point, but you're also trying to fix it to make it look like my posts will never have value.

You also have no idea how many times *facepalm* happened after reading one of your posts.

I do not assume you are sacrificing yourself, it's a scenario possibility thats affecting my judgement on my vote, but otherwise I feel its a good vote.

I cannot say much on the BW of me, as I can understand my persons reasons for not wanting to post much. As to why when he did post it was crap, i have no idea. As to why people are voting for me, it seems like a policy lynch. I hope to change that by posting more relevent info, just please don't expect me to pull a mastin or AndyTony, as I'm more of the midsize poster.

[Sotty7]

Feeling much better now. Happy times.

I said that Sotty was jumping on other people's arguments not giving her own. And that she is behaving similar to the way she did in Vipod as scum. I will admit it isn't a lot to go on but we have a very short amount of time to do a lynch and I am just not on board with VP Baltar right now. I usually can tell when VP is scum and I haven't got scum vibes from him yet.

Umm no. I am voting VP for the same reason I found you suspicious, the weak unvote of Cobalt while leaving it open to jump back on the wagon if nothing else takes. I am not latching on to anyone else's reasoning, that is my own. Also you are misrepping my Vipod meta. Bad Juls.

When the game started and VP posted a few times in a small period of time I felt that gave him a more pro town vibe. After expressing desire to want a serious wagon right off the bat as not to waste posts I don't see scumVP going against his own advice so quickly. But then the whole push on Cobalt and his unvote happened and that wiped away my initial read.

I switched from you to VP because he was a wagon that was actually moving. I find him scummy, but not as scummy as you right now. You are using weak points to justify your OMGUS vote on me. I don't like it.

VP, we don't have time to lynch DDD. I'm keeping my vote on Cobalt. If I'm switching, it's gonna be Starry, but I'd rather not.

How do you know that? I would be willing to vote triple D today.

@VP post 142: I very much agree. I don't like people directing the lynch like that. We have a group of mostly active posters. We have time.

Welcome saber I didn't realize you replaced in for ACSN. Your posts already make me feel better about that player slot.