Mini 855: Colorless Rainbow Town (Halted for list mod error)

[Chinaman]

Moving on:

p630 cont: Why are you confident that MM and ZEE are town? Because they agree with you on Scien?

p632: Can't wait to see your case on me. Also can't wait to see where you claim I'm buddying you.

p637: Actually, he has no reason to hammer himself if he's scum, let alone lie about his flip. He's hammered at this point and I don't see any reason to do so as scum.
--------------------------New day starts-----------------------------
p665: Monkey's first post. Bam right out the gate with "I have a power role" Can't wait for the info.

p668: Again with the buddying. Where? Also, scummy behavior? Where? I'm sure there is a nice long case on me later, but that's what I'm wondering at this point. Especially since you want everyone else to explain their votes on MM but "buddying" and "scummy behavior" is all you need to vote me?

p669: Just because YOU think their weak doesn't make them weak. Scien had a good point before he died that most your case on him could be brought down to WIFOM (especially now that he flipped town). I agreed with your case on him and it's too bad I wasn't around when things lit up with his responses. I don't think at that time I could have let him not get lynched due to we wouldn't have had proof he'd actually do it, so in the end he had to be hammered, but he was making solid points that are clearly town now that he flipped.

p672: First, this isn't the only game I'm in. Second, I don't live and breath MS and do have a life outside the internet. Third, sorry I don't live on your timeline of when I should and shouldn't do things.

p673: Ok, so MM isn't going to claim Cop

p679: Amished, do you think that you interaction here could be viewed as coaching? It's one of the things you brought up in your case on Scien, I'm not seeing much of a difference in what he did vs what you are doing with MM.

p682: Alright, I now have 2 people saying I was buddying Amish. So that's 2 people that can point to where please.

p684: I read this and thought, ok, that makes sense. But then I added the interaction between you 2 and you basically told him what PR he could claim to be the safest. You also told him in this post, that he could pretty much point to anyone he wanted now. I skimmed ahead to see if he revealed yet, and he hasn't. So it will be interesting who he targets. Between your interaction with MM, your constant defense of him, and your lack of case on me but rather just small comments here and there,

FoS: Amished.

Also, once we get MM's reveal, there will be no way to prove it until his lynch.

p690: Wow, I didn't expect this from MM. I thought for sure he'd be on board with it. ESPECIALLY if Amish'es scenario of what happened at night were true. If MM was a watcher/tracker, why would he ask this question? Wouldn't it make sense to him if he saw someone "visit" Amished at night and amished was still alive? Should be an interesting reveal to say the least.

p711: I do agree with this post.

p718: at the end, you say Raiv's protown list might be his scumbuddies. Is it also a possibility to think Raiv was buddying up to townies? Also, I would point to Scien's post where he was accused of coaching. Raiv pretty much took everyone that didn't attack him and put them on a town list.

p724: Oh, that wasn't my case on MM at all. It was my thoughts as I caught up. I am now caught up. Also, you have missed some direct questions I had for you. As they are all found in 2 posts, please go back and answer them.

[Chinaman]

Also, I'm surprised you haven't listed your case on me. The post you pointed out as having your thoughts on my scummy behavior has been answered by me already and after Scien's flip, I don't see most of it holding water (Amished ISO 12). Most everything in it is under the assumption that Scien is scum and MM is town. We know at least half of that assumption isn't true, and I think it would be good to find out if the other half is bunk as well. I'm not going to cast my vote on MM yet till I can give you in my own words as to why, just know it's going there as of right now. So yeah, again, why am I scummy? and again, where did I buddy you? I went back and tried to find it myself and the only thing I can find is where I thought you made good points on Scien being scum. And tried to ask you questions in a polite manner. The first part is because they were good points at the time! Am I not supposed to read them and agree with them? If that's the case, why build a case on someone at all? Secondly, I tend to come down pretty hard on those I believe are scum (question wise). You just came in and literally had nothing to judge your alignment on at the time. Being respectful is bad? Guess what, I don't have a scum read on Dizzle at this time either. If I ask a question to him respectfully and without sarcasm, does that mean I'm buddying him? So again, PLEASE point out the buddying.

Also, I'm glad you thought my going back and commenting on what I saw as a complete waste of time and utter crap. So happy I wasted time in doing so. I guess I should have just skipped it or not commented on it at all then as to not waste your time. Seriously though, I know you don't like anything negative being said about MM (God knows why), but what about the comments not about him? Were they all a big waste as well? If they were, why? You are not above the rest of us and don't get to just say something is crap without backing it up Amished.

[Amished]

First I want to point out how absolutely hypocritical (not sure if this is the right word, but ridiculous works too I guess) it is for you to go back and start off saying that Scien's posts look like they're coming from a pro-town POV. Of course they are, *because we know he was town from the flip*. Stop pretending you thought he was town after the fact as you've basically agreed with anything I said yesterday saying that "I make a lot of sense" in more than one occasion. *That* is what we're calling buddying. Now you're trying to push yourself against a claimed town power role that really had no reason to out himself so early. The pushing a town power role that you fear I've *only* seen come from scum. I will bet my self-protecting doc life that you {china} flip scum based on this alone.

I'll get to your "timeline" in a minute. (BTW gogo IIoA)

[Chinaman]

What? First off, his posts seem more townie than scum where I pointed out they did. That doesn't mean I wouldn't have hammered, I would have, but if you take the post alone, it had more of a town than scum feel to it. Of course I'm only human and knew that he was flipped town when I wrote this, but I'm not condemning anyone for it, only that since he started posting again after I went to bed, they were from more of a town standpoint. I'm not accusing anyone of anything by saying that, so not sure why you're jumping on it. Secondly, you want people to agree with your case enough to vote for person your case is on, but you will call it buddying after that case turns out to be on town? That's basically what I'm getting from you here. I will say it again "buddy", your case made a lot of sense and I did agree with it. We now know it was wrong, and I'm scum for agreeing with it...*THATS* hypocritical. Secondly, why should I just believe that a claimed power role is not a fake claim automatically? He hasn't even posted his info yet. I also don't know if I believe your claim to a PR either. There is no list of what is and isn't out there and thus no way to CC your claims. So I'm sorry if I don't automatically put the 2 people I think most scummy into a town list just because they claim. Your claim protects yourself (so far) so has no real use to town as your situations of what scum did and didn't do are purely hypothetical, and MM is scummy to just about everyone but you. MM has posted since you asked him to wait, then told him it was ok to tell, and he hasn't told. I think we are all ready to hear it, but no matter what it is, it's not going to be automatically believed (by me anyway). I'm trying to find scum, not believing everything everyone has to say. For someone with a very logical case on Scien, you have been very illogical toward me as of late.

[Amished]

Ok, so here's my evidence of:

after flip making yourself look good, your references to: post 532, 541, 549, 572/573 (saying you would've unvoted), and finally 669, which is probably the grandest of them all. It's a convoluted story that I think has you saying you thought he was obviously pro-town but he had to be hammered anyways.

Your buddying with other people after the fact: 545 (with cruel); 551 parrots what cruel said in 545 (with cruel); 560 and 566 with Fuzzy; 572/573 with d3x; 585 with Jason. This is ignoring any posts that I haven't read while going through your timeline.

Your point being weak or contradictory to another stance that you hold:

533: You state that you ISO'd fuzzy and didn't see much from him either way; but with your references to 607, you say you're going to bring up the point that I replaced somebody with no interactions to our scum. Fuzzy = one real major posts defining his stance vs. a *flaker* that turned into me where I give plenty of stances is worse for me. Got it.

This is going to be a big one:
538 you condemn WIFOM statements (by me) describing Scien's play.

589 you say that it's WIFOM, but it doesn't matter cause you want MMan lynched (which, oddly enough somewhat contradicts your reference to 570, in which you expect not to lynch MMan if something crazy happens today. I refuse to believe that you didn't read any of what happened the night before with MMan soft-claiming PR and my claiming self-protecting doc. That's pretty crazy if you ask me).

599 is complete WIFOM (who scum buddy with).

621 WIFOM about MMan distancing himself.

669: You condemn WIFOM again.

684: WIFOM about how scumbuddies would act during the day.


Blatant misrepresentations/bad "points"/points that I feel have no business coming from a townie: 630 (I have already explained why I thought ZEE and MMan to be town, and because they agree with me isn't the reason.)

679: You draw the comparison of me "coaching" mman like *scien* did with Raiv. However, you condemn me for it while in your analogy I'm taking the role of scien who flipped town and not scum. This could've been your best point against MMan, but you chose not to make it so in the effort to discredit my claim (clarification: my claim is pro-town power role. In your effort to paint me as anti-town, you're also discrediting my power role status).

684/690 together: First you'd have to assume that I wasn't active or able to tell MMan what to claim and when and how during the night phase if we were both scum. Secondly, since you've said that I've looked logical, you'd think that I'd be able to go through and make a good fake-claim for both of us to save our skin. Take a watcher/self-protecting doc (that I thought could be the most condemning of anybody else). Assuming that we're both scum, we'd be the last two. A scum-fakeclaim-watcher would then *have to lie* about who targeted me last night for the mafia kill. EVEN IF we lynch said player, MMan would then be outed as scum (1 for 1 at this point isn't logical) and be lynched the next day, with me trying to save my own ass through 2? days of mislynching without getting caught by any town power roles.

back to the first major post for other "points" that fall into the same category.

541: Saying that (rearranged a little) "If he's {MMan} is scum, MMan should lurk more." Following this line of reasoning, you feel that one of the scum are lurking, and that MMan being active leads you to believe that he's town. Good work undermining everything you've said against MMan so far. Congrats.

551: The question that *cruel* (not dizzle) asked was why I was still aggressively defending MMan. My response in 551 stated that I want my town read to live and my scum read to die. That's a perfect answer to the question and not dodging it at all.

578: I wasn't uneasy about MMan and Scien being at L-1. I was questioning why Jason (the he that's in the rest of the reference; not me) voted for one or the other when he's claimed to have what I thought was a contradictory stance and was later cleared up.

590: Sometimes optimal scum play is self-hammering. With your admittedly two games playing; I don't think you're one to lecture on mafiascum strategy, let alone condemn anybody for it.

621: I admit good points when I see them. With your views of me coaching/defending MMan even after this post; I fully expect you to retract this if you think it adds to your case against me at all.

627: You now question Dizzle when you reference 597 as "lol, i can only guess that this post ended that back and forth between dizzle and amished." Clearly you thought Dizzle had a good point, but your contradictory reference to 627 when you think he's now wrong allows you to have no stance what-so-ever and do whatever you want later on in the game.

Finally, the rest of the post is useless IIoA that wastes everybody's time and/or distracts from what actually is going on in the game. The bolded are my two most important parts about my post (IMO) and I'd like to see your {China's} and everybody else's thoughts on them after China responds.

I'll respond to 728 later if I feel I have to.

[MonkeyMan576]

@d3x - I haven't had time to list my power role games yet, it will take quite a bit of work, so you'll have to give me a chance.

My night action result:

I roleblocked Chinaman last night. I suspect the reason why there were no deaths is that my roleblock prevented him from his kill.

This would also explain why he is so adamant about not believing my night action result.

[StrangerCoug]

Vote count when I'm on a computer with a mouse without a mind of its own.

[StrangerCoug]

VOTE COUNT

Chinaman 1:

Amished (668)

MonkeyMan576 2:

d3x (693), cruelty (723)
Not voting: Chinaman, Dizzle, Fuzzyman, jasonT1981, MonkeyMan576, Skruffs, ZEEnon

With 10 alive, it's 6 to lynch.

Josh Lyman, if you're still reading this thread, happy birthday.

[d3x]

While I'm not wanting to have the two of you stop the back and forth, I'd like the other players to get in here and be a bit more active as well.

Anyone who hasn't posted yet, please do {disclaimer- I'm well aware the thread's been only open 24 hours}. Topics can revolve around the MM case, the CM case, the Amished claim, the MM claim, or other notable issues that are at hand.

@Fuzzy, I'd especially appreciate to hear from you. I skimmed the games you linked to and you seem very much more involved than in this one. Why? Unfortunately, one was a Scum role and one was a Town role, so it equates to a Null Tell at best. You said earlier that you aren't the biggest fail of this game and I agree. However, I don't think that should be a badge of honor.

@MM- Definitely, I was just making sure that you remembered and it didn't slip under the cracks. Also, why would you assume that your 'RB' stopped the NK? There are many possibilities and yours is only one. Afterall, according to Amished, there was no NK because he Doc saved himself. You did say that you were only 85% sure, but still...

[Amished]

Ok, so I don't know about the rest of you, but if I was scum *with* China; I wouldn't want him to send in the kill. However, I've definitely been on scumteams where they want to kill due to a grudge, so there's a chance that the kill was double blocked.

@MM: Is there a restriction as to who you can roleblock?

[MonkeyMan576]

Ok, so I don't know about the rest of you, but if I was scum *with* China; I wouldn't want him to send in the kill. However, I've definitely been on scumteams where they want to kill due to a grudge, so there's a chance that the kill was double blocked.

@MM: Is there a restriction as to who you can roleblock?

No.

[MonkeyMan576]

While I'm not wanting to have the two of you stop the back and forth, I'd like the other players to get in here and be a bit more active as well.

Anyone who hasn't posted yet, please do {disclaimer- I'm well aware the thread's been only open 24 hours}. Topics can revolve around the MM case, the CM case, the Amished claim, the MM claim, or other notable issues that are at hand.

@Fuzzy, I'd especially appreciate to hear from you. I skimmed the games you linked to and you seem very much more involved than in this one. Why? Unfortunately, one was a Scum role and one was a Town role, so it equates to a Null Tell at best. You said earlier that you aren't the biggest fail of this game and I agree. However, I don't think that should be a badge of honor.

@MM- Definitely, I was just making sure that you remembered and it didn't slip under the cracks. Also, why would you assume that your 'RB' stopped the NK? There are many possibilities and yours is only one. Afterall, according to Amished, there was no NK because he Doc saved himself. You did say that you were only 85% sure, but still...

Amished said he was targeted, not that there was a kill attempt against him. He could still have been investigated(which seems likely to me) or protected by someone else, etc.

[d3x]

Amished said he was targeted

Interesting. Can you point out exactly where this happened?

[d3x]

MM- Would you care to respond to p720?

[MonkeyMan576]

Amished said he was targeted

Interesting. Can you point out exactly where this happened?

Screw it, I want to brag a bit; and I think it might help MMan make up his mind if I'm reading the signs correctly (which I believe I am). I am a doctor who can self protect. Clearly I protected myself last night, and unless there's another way for somebody to block a kill;

I'm certain that I was targeted

. I'm betting that MMan is a watcher or tracker (more likely watcher) who watched me and saw somebody "visit" me last night. Since we have one "correct lynch" (the modkill) and one mislynch; I don't feel like we're anywhere near lylo and can test MMan's claim; which should help everyone feel much better.

He's assuming it was a kill attempt that targeted him, he doesn't know for sure. And since I know I roleblocked someone, I'm pretty sure it wasn't a killer. At least that seems the most likely scenario to me. Feel free to point out other scenarios though.

[Amished]

I suspected I was targeted because I thought that there was no other ability to prevent me being targeted. (Pending MMan saying he's telling the truth) if China targeted somebody else, the same night result would've had it.

735 makes me much less likely to believe MMan's claim. In fact, I'm considering reversing my whole opinion of him and voting for him, though I want to think over the game first.

[Amished]

MMan, answer d3x's question already. I pointed out what he was asking so you can look at my recent posts too for said question.

[MonkeyMan576]

MMan, answer d3x's question already. I pointed out what he was asking so you can look at my recent posts too for said question.

That's a more involved question, and takes more time to answer. I'm getting tired of the pushiness.

[MonkeyMan576]

I suspected I was targeted because I thought that there was no other ability to prevent me being targeted. (Pending MMan saying he's telling the truth) if China targeted somebody else, the same night result would've had it.

735 makes me much less likely to believe MMan's claim. In fact, I'm considering reversing my whole opinion of him and voting for him, though I want to think over the game first.

Why would a roleblocker have restrictions on who they can roleblock?

[Chinaman]

d3x: it was post 684 where he "was certain" he was targeted.

MM: you blocked a townie.

Assuming that MM and Amished are both telling the truth, here are the scenarios:

1 - The scum decided not to kill anyone to out town power roles today.
*I for don't know about his one. If we are going under the above assumption, then I give this less credit. Can't see why the scum wouldn't try to NK no matter what roles were out there. In fact, it would be in there best interest to at least try and kill someone and maybe get lucky and get a NK on a PR. But it's possible so I put it down.

2 - The scum targeted Amished and since he protected himself, no NK.
*Best possible scenario under the above assumption from where I stand. I'm town, nobody died, and Amished saved himself from scum.

3 - Scum targeted someone else and there is another town PR out there that hasn't claimed and protected scums target.
*With 2 town PR's already claimed, I would find a 3rd to be unlikely, but you never know and I'm not asking. No need to give scum a 3rd target.

4 - I'm lying out my ass and was basically double blocked.
*Zero credence from where I stand, but for everyone else not scum, it should be something you consider at least since you aren't me.

5 - I'm lying out my ass and was blocked by MM but targeted someone other than Amished
*Same as number 4.

6 - I'm lying out my ass and am some other PR with a NK, got blocked by MM and scum targeted Amished and both NK's failed.
*Same as number 3 and 4.

7 - The above assumption is wrong and there is a fake claim from one or both of them.
*Judging by MM's play thus far and my scumdar going off almost every time he posts, I would say that if only one is lying about a PR, it's him. No NK, and it took a long while to come out with the info. I'm not saying he is or isn't lying, I'm saying I'm not in a rush to put either one of them in the confirmed townie slot at this time.

Those are all the possibilities I can think of as of now. There are more possibilites if number 7 turns out to be true, but we'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it.
------------------------
Don't worry Amished, I will address your "evidence" in p729 next time I post. Just wanted to get the above scenarios compiled so we are a little more organized in the hunt.
------------------------
Also, if there is another scenario that I missed, please quote the above and add it in bold or something to keep this compiled. I think it will help in the hunt in the long run if we have all the possible scenario's laid out in an organized manner.

[Chinaman]

Oops, should have checked to see if anyone had ninja'd me, and I have been ninja'd.

[d3x]

MM- Re:p739, you know that if you are targeted {in almost every instance} you are not told that you are targeted, right? He's not saying that he knows he was targeted, he's saying that he's almost 100% sure that the NK attempt came at him and because he "self-protected", there was no NK. The porblem is,

if

both of you are telling the truth, there is no way to know that CM is Scum or Amished was the target or someone else did something else to stop the NK {including the Scum setting up a false protect claim by submitting a No Kill}. MM, did you receive confirmation that CM tried to do anything last night?

[MonkeyMan576]

MM- Re:p739, you know that if you are targeted {in almost every instance} you are not told that you are targeted, right? He's not saying that he knows he was targeted, he's saying that he's almost 100% sure that the NK attempt came at him and because he "self-protected", there was no NK. The porblem is,

if

both of you are telling the truth, there is no way to know that CM is Scum or Amished was the target or someone else did something else to stop the NK {including the Scum setting up a false protect claim by submitting a No Kill}. MM, did you receive confirmation that CM tried to do anything last night?

No, all I know is I succesfully roleblocked someone.

[d3x]

it was post 684 where he "was certain" he was targeted.

I know. Not to be a d!ck, but I was asking MM for a reason.

I think it will help in the hunt in the long run if we have all the possible scenario's laid out in an organized manner.

As the whole thing is WIFOM, I don't see how it

could

help. There are also almost an infinite amount of permutations that could have happened and what this is doing is serving to distract from actual Scum Hunting. I'm not trying to be mean or sh!t on your parade, but how does this help us to catch Scum? You said that it doesn't hurt, but neither does talking about the Dodgers' chances at the Series. The fact is, it doesn't hurt {possibly}, but it doesn't really help either.

---------------------------

MM- How do you "know" that you successfully "RBed" someone?

[MonkeyMan576]

it was post 684 where he "was certain" he was targeted.

I know. Not to be a d!ck, but I was asking MM for a reason.

I think it will help in the hunt in the long run if we have all the possible scenario's laid out in an organized manner.

As the whole thing is WIFOM, I don't see how it

could

help. There are also almost an infinite amount of permutations that could have happened and what this is doing is serving to distract from actual Scum Hunting. I'm not trying to be mean or sh!t on your parade, but how does this help us to catch Scum? You said that it doesn't hurt, but neither does talking about the Dodgers' chances at the Series. The fact is, it doesn't hurt {possibly}, but it doesn't really help either.

---------------------------

MM- How do you "know" that you successfully "RBed" someone?

The dodgers don't have a chance. Go Angels!