Mafia 102: No-Frills Game Thread(Town wins!)

[charter]

Defend your position with more than "the bandwagon seems scum-driven"

I'm not sure what more you want, this is a really solid reason. And since I'm defending someone of whom I'm not positive of their alignment, I'm not sure what else I can do.

He says we should lynch him because he knows he's been playing scummy. Terrible reason to vote someone. Scum would be (and almost certainly are) jumping all over this, which is exactly what Bigmc, muh, and Pom have done.

I don't think his posts have been particularly good or insightful, but I find the people that jumped on him far more suspicious than staple.

---------------------

Super Accurate* Vote Count(as of post 425):

RayFrost - 2(mask man, crypto)
Staple - 5(le Chat, hiphop, bigmc109, muh316, Pomegranate)
crypto - 1(X_~)
X_~ - 1(EtherealCookie)
Pomegranate - 1(SerialClergyman)
muh316 - 2(Empking, Sando)
bigmc109 - 2(Staple, charter)

Not Voting:Kaiveran, RayFrost

*Not guaranteed to be accurate.

[bigmc109]

....he's also right. He has been playing scummy. How is that an awful reason to vote someone?

[charter]

Townies play scummy all the time, at least he admitted it and is trying to correct it. The chance of him being scum is really small. You're taking his actions and refusing to even consider him as town. Why is that? Because he screwed up and you're scum and you're running with it. Same thing applies to Pom.

[Kaiveran]

Still rereading. Was gone for most of the day and my family came over and EVERYBODY needed their turn on the computer. Can always count on my family to fuck things up...

I appreciate anybody who's willing to summarize for me, but that doesn't really work. I need to see everything from my own point of view.

[bigmc109]

I refuse to consider he's town until he stops "screwing up". He has yet to do ANYTHING to defend himself well. You, on the other hand, seem to do nothing but defend for him.

[crypto]

Charter, why is Kaiveran a good choice for a wagon?

[crypto]

Townies play scummy all the time, at least he admitted it and is trying to correct it. The chance of him being scum is really small. You're taking his actions and refusing to even consider him as town. Why is that? Because he screwed up and you're scum and you're running with it. Same thing applies to Pom.

I'm calling bullshit on this. Staple has done nothing to improve his play here. Your rhetoric is painful to read.

[Pomegranate]

Defend your position with more than "the bandwagon seems scum-driven"

I'm not sure what more you want, this is a really solid reason. And since I'm defending someone of whom I'm not positive of their alignment, I'm not sure what else I can do.

He says we should lynch him because he knows he's been playing scummy. Terrible reason to vote someone.

Scum would be (and almost certainly are) jumping all over this, which is exactly what Bigmc, muh, and Pom have done.

I don't think his posts have been particularly good or insightful, but I find the people that jumped on him far more suspicious than staple.

Townies play scummy all the time, at least he admitted it and is trying to correct it. The chance of him being scum is really small. You're taking his actions and refusing to even consider him as town. Why is that? Because he screwed up and you're scum and you're running with it.

Same thing applies to Pom.

First you say that I'm jumping all over the place, as scum is probably doing, then you say that the same things that apply to Staple (who you're defending,) apply to me. If I'm jumping all over as scum(, which I don't see, myself), yet your defenses apply to me, I'm confused. You're saying that I'm scummy in one post, then you're kind of defending me in the next. You're being very contradictory here. What

is

your opinion on me?

[charter]

Pom, none of what you said in that post is what I said. I said scum are probably jumping on staple. I accused you and bigmc of this. I said that bigmc is running with 'staple is scum' because staple made some bad posts. I said you're doing the same thing as bigmc. I haven't defended you, and I can't see myself doing so today because you're very scummy.

Charter, why is Kaiveran a good choice for a wagon?

Because his one post was horribly scummy.

[charter]

Townies play scummy all the time, at least he admitted it and is trying to correct it. The chance of him being scum is really small. You're taking his actions and refusing to even consider him as town. Why is that? Because he screwed up and you're scum and you're running with it. Same thing applies to Pom.

I'm calling bullshit on this. Staple has done nothing to improve his play here. Your rhetoric is painful to read.

What the hell are you talking about? You seriously think that everyone who posts something like "I don't want to play" or "I've played scummy" is scum? Please. Probably one out of ten people that post this stuff is scum. You seriously think scum cracked under the pressure of TWO VOTES?

There's enough people in this game have have some sense, so I'm done defending staple. Can't imagine he actually gets lynched.

Ray, Empking, Sando, SC: You guys should all vote bigmc. Let's get the ball rolling.

[Staple]

@bigmc: Give me a chance then.

I am pretty much content at the moment with Crypto's reasoning for voting off Pom.

@Charter: Thanks for defending me mate, but why did you take this task upon yourself? Even though as you yourself stated it is ridiculous iyo to vote me, people generally shy away from making alliances in mafia, especially defending someone else like this. If player x defends player y, and player y turns out to be scum, player x would generally be in the spotlight. Perhaps you also know my alignment, and you are trying to work on your alibi a bit more when I turn out as town?

[Empking]

Unvote Vote: bIGMC

I'm not liking his reactions to Charter.

Muh; What are your thoughts on 435?

[bigmc109]

@ Staple: I wouldn't say I'm not giving you a chance. Every new post of yours is another chance. If you want to change my mind, improve your play.

[Kaiveran]

I would just like to say that I have mostly recovered from my illness and am in mafia playing shape again. Thanks to the mod and others for their good wishes.

Now to finally catch up with an assload of intricate, dozens of pages long arguments! Awesome! *gag*

[hiphop]

I'm not sure what more you want, this is a really solid reason. And since I'm defending someone of whom I'm not positive of their alignment, I'm not sure what else I can do.

Why are you defending him? Can he not defend himself? I am looking at three possibilities.

1. You are scum defending scum buddy.
2. You are scum defending townie. Knowing when he flips you will be right.
3. You are town defending someone for no reason other than you think he is town.
A townie should not defend anybody, unless that person is guaranteed to be innocent.

I am likely to believe the first two.

vote: Charter
unvote

[hiphop]

EBWOP
I am likely to believe the first two.

unvote
vote: Charter

[Sando]

What? A townie should never defend someone else?

The best way to find scum is to analyse their arguments and find faulty logic within it. If someone makes a faulty argument against someone else, I'm going to point it out. To merely analyse the attacks on yourself limits your scumhunting abilities to a huge extent.

I'm still happy with my vote on Muh, Bigmc has at least put his arguments out there and on the line, Muh seems to be sitting back and letting things happen, not really getting involved since he's been called out on his vote. Oh, and as for him becoming more active since being asked to, being active and jumping on the first and most opportune candidate are different things.

[Pomegranate]

You seriously think scum cracked under the pressure of TWO VOTES?

N00bs usually

do

crack pretty easily. This is Staple's second game, (the other one is a Newbie in D1) so this could easily be his first game as scum. Also, who do you think is more likely to crack easily: n00b town or n00b scum?

~~~

I went and checked up on Staple's Newbie game, and IMO he is scumhunting well there. I'm not going to continue to discuss that game because it is ongoing, but I do see a difference in his play from his play here.

[hiphop]

What? A townie should never defend someone else?

The best way to find scum is to analyse their arguments and find faulty logic within it. If someone makes a faulty argument against someone else, I'm going to point it out. To merely analyse the attacks on yourself limits your scumhunting abilities to a huge extent.

Think about what you just said. Isn't there a difference between defending someone and attacking someone for their argument? Being that Charter admitted he was defending staple...

Are you defending charter or attacking me?

[SerialClergyman]

I was ready to vote bigmc since he strted lining up lynches. Then pom spoke up on his side and I had one of those happy crystalising moments. I had a much longer post that was lost when the site went down but essentially I'm sticking with my read on staple as town vi lynchbait and bigmc went straight for it.

All abord the wagon!! Choo choo!!

Sando, as if vote the person set to be tomorrows lynch ahead of time by filthy scummy bigmc. You'll get much more kudos if you get on the wagon andstart bussing.

vote bigmc

[Sando]

You want me to vote the person defending their position, actually scumhunting, if opportunistically in my opinion, over someone who lurks, is forced to post, jumps on the best looking bandwagon, then stops posting again once he gets called out on that?

Telling me to bus though... that was smooth buddy.

Think about what you just said. Isn't there a difference between defending someone and attacking someone for their argument?

Attacking the arguments for being faulty is exactly how you defend either yourself or someone else. If the argument is not faulty, there's normally a good reason, and that person typically gets lynched.

I'm attacking your arguments on Charter (I assume, I didn't actually check who, your argument was just silly). If I show that your arguments are faulty, there are by definition less arguments saying they are scummy than before. This sounds like a defence to me.

Without attacking someones arguments, and without various other scumtells like OMGUS and deflecting, how would you suggest you defend yourself or someone else?

[charter]

@Charter: Thanks for defending me mate, but why did you take this task upon yourself? Even though as you yourself stated it is ridiculous iyo to vote me, people generally shy away from making alliances in mafia, especially defending someone else like this. If player x defends player y, and player y turns out to be scum, player x would generally be in the spotlight. Perhaps you also know my alignment, and you are trying to work on your alibi a bit more when I turn out as town?

Because we are wasting mith's precious bandwidth debating whether or not you should be lynched. I'm not making alliances or friends, I am clearing town and finding scum. If you flip scum, I'll gladly be in the spotlight, but I don't think that is going to happen.

And for anyone who thinks defending others who are obvtown is scummy, this game just finished where I single handedly derailed a lynch on someone after he was at L-1 AND claimed vanilla solely because I thought it was pretty obvious that scum were voting him and he was town. I see the same thing in this game, and I'm doing the same thing.

3. You are town defending someone for no reason other than you think he is town.
A townie should not defend anybody, unless that person is guaranteed to be innocent.

This is terribly dumb. Clearing townies is just as useful as finding scum. Look at what I just posted and like my first three posts in the game I posted, and see that I JUST DID IT AS TOWN. Bonus, I was right about him being town, and I'd wager I'm right about staple.

You seriously think scum cracked under the pressure of TWO VOTES?

N00bs usually

do

crack pretty easily. This is Staple's second game, (the other one is a Newbie in D1) so this could easily be his first game as scum. Also, who do you think is more likely to crack easily: n00b town or n00b scum?

~~~

I went and checked up on Staple's Newbie game, and IMO he is scumhunting well there. I'm not going to continue to discuss that game because it is ongoing, but I do see a difference in his play from his play here.

Town, by far. That's the case most of the time. HOW DO YOU KNOW HE ISNT SCUM IN THE OTHER GAME AND TOWN HERE? Seriously, people using "oh well soandso's playing different in another ongoing game" as a reason (even mentioning it is bad) is terrible. You don't know anyone's role in another game, PLUS it's ongoing so it shouldn't be discussed anyway. This argument makes you look scummy, not staple.

[bigmc109]

I have to say, I'm pretty amazed at the amount of people who are letting Staple's play go. I can see how the Staple wagon seems oppurtunistic; he's really the first to appear overtly scummy, and if he is town, I wouldn't be surprised if scum are jumping on it right now. But the point is that just because some people aren't providing the most unique analysis for their votes does NOT mean Staple's scumminess goes away. The fact of tha matter is that Staple's scumminess doesn't extend very far beyond what I've already accused him of. Ever since his vote on me, he's been pretty much coasting, with charter doing most of his talking for him, which means everyone who subsequently voted for him doesn't have any new insights. Of course their reasons are going to be the same if

Staple doesn't bring anything new to the table

Staple has pretty much been pushed into the background even when the discussion is about him. I'm pretty sure he could go without posting for awhile simply because the heat has shifted to the people on his wagon. I doubt any of the people voting me right now can honestly say that Staple's play has made him look town. Are you guys even somewhat suspicious of him?

Now, having said all that, he has added one thing since his vote, which was a short paragraph on charter. I'm finding it pretty interesting upon re-reading it, and it's almost making me start to rethink this whole thing. There are two things that paragraph says to me. Either:

1. Staple and charter are scumbuddies, and Staple is getting nervous about charter's defense of him, and is now trying to distance himself; or
2. charter-scum is trying to defend Staple-town in order to appear clean if Staple flips town.

Don't take this as me discounting the possibility of charter being town; those were the two things the quote said to me, not the two possibilities for this game. It could very well be Staple-scum trying to shift attention onto charter. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's what it is. But it is interesting nonetheless.

For the record, I don't think defending someone is a scumtell by itself. I think if you really believe something, you shuold express it. This is why I'm still finding charter to be town.

[hiphop]

And for anyone who thinks defending others who are obvtown is scummy, this game just finished where I single handedly derailed a lynch on someone after he was at L-1 AND claimed vanilla solely because I thought it was pretty obvious that scum were voting him and he was town. I see the same thing in this game, and I'm doing the same thing.

I defended scum as a townie, because the town didn't have a case on him, but the bw wasn't derailed and he was lynched anyways. I have done it as scum too, which is why you shouldn't defend, especially on day one, because as you yourself said the alignment is unknown.

I JUST DID IT AS TOWN.

So are you trying to say that because you did it as town, then every time you do it you will be town?

@ Sando When you defend yourself that is different, but when someone places an argument against you in which some of them are good points, and another person tries to get

all

the points dismissed. You wouldn't think that is scummy? SerialClergyman calls staple a vi, is that what charter is using to say Staple is not scum? Calling someone a vi, tells everybody that the person has good points against them, but serialclergyman can’t explain them. A vi can just as likely to be town as scum.

[charter]

I'm saying it's obviously not a scumtell, since I do it as town, but oh wait, that's why you're voting me. And you still are.