/in-Vitational Game 5, Simon Mafia 2: Game Over before 832

[SpyreX]

Oddly enough it felt genuine that you didn't realize Elmo was dead (which apparently is true) which meant, to me, that you were town.

Well done.

[Goatrevolt]

Oddly enough it felt genuine that you didn't realize Elmo was dead (which apparently is true) which meant, to me, that you were town.

Well done.

I was using that as a base point to call him town on the final day. It was one of those "tells" that was legitimate enough to use without issue.

Elmo: I feel the scum had control of the game because the town sure didn't. Nobody took control or really tried to push for a lynch. Nobody had enough conviction to try to actively push someone to get lynched, which allowed us to get 3 consecutive deadline lynches at less than majority on townies. The town really needed someone to step up and lead.

PJ: I think the game was well-balanced. I think opinions are skewed based on the outcome of this game, but the truth of the matter is 4 consecutive townies were lynched without scum being hit at all and a night kill was soaked up which gave town that extra mislynch before the loss. Even despite us being in complete control of the game (the day LF was lynched, prior to the last minute Gurgi wagon, the 4 wagons were all on townies) we still could have seen the entire game crumble on the last day if Gurgi was lynched. The red floor was locked down, ironically enough because Batt and myself were the towniest players, but if Gurgi was killed, we would have been unable to make a kill with both remaining scum on lock down and we would have likely lost. If nothing else, it would have taken quite some convincing to talk our way out of that one.

I kept expecting Gurgi to vote TDC when we were both online, but I guess he was waiting for me to do the same. We kind of went back and forth unnecessarily for a while until I realized "Duh!" he's waiting for me.

[SpyreX]

Elmo: I feel the scum had control of the game because the town sure didn't. Nobody took control or really tried to push for a lynch. Nobody had enough conviction to try to actively push someone to get lynched, which allowed us to get 3 consecutive deadline lynches at less than majority on townies. The town really needed someone to step up and lead.

This. A thousand times this.

I know I started down a few right paths but then lost steam when the only people I was really discussing things with were the damn scum.

And, yea, if we had locked red, killed gurgi and there was no kill there would have been some splainin' to do the next day.

[forbiddanlight]

And, yea, if we had locked red, killed gurgi and there was no kill there would have been some splainin' to do the next day.

Yeah...honestly, this is one of my most pathetic town games since my first one (you remember that one, don't you spyrex?)

[SpyreX]

I don't think any of us town-side can even pretended to pat ourselves on the back for this one.

Next time I'm in a game with goat I swear the minute I go "Ohh that is TOTALLY town" I'm lynching the hell out of him.

[Goatrevolt]

Next time I'm in a game with goat I swear the minute I go "Ohh that is TOTALLY town" I'm lynching the hell out of him.

Next time you're in a game with me, I will actually be town, and will be playing my town game, and you will want to lynch me. That is how it generally works .

[SpyreX]

You damn right. Fool me every time, shame on me.

(Nah you guys played a great game and I HATE when I have an itch and can't pin down why).

[Lord Gurgi]

[forbiddanlight]

As I meant to say, Kudos the the scum team. I must admit I kinda sorta thought you townie when you were exhorting me to lead, LG.

[Elmo]

I dunno, I would have happily resigned this on night 1. It's more of a town loss than a scum win; I don't think the scum did horrible, but they didn't really have to do much beyond not play jester. And people thinking Goat was town is just depressing, literally. I just give up.

Also, lol at people metagaming me. That's pretty much 100% of people who tried that have failed. I was playing different, I mix up my play a lot, durr? I decided that whatever game I played next, I'd experiment with playing a lot more passively than usual, maybe I got unlucky with the game I picked but what happened is pretty depressing. I can't possibly believe that it all falls apart without me, but I dunno what the hell happened. I'm not sure how I would have played apart from that, maybe tried to get Gurgi lynched Day 2, meh. Would probably have lost anyway, though, so at least I saved some effort.

Elmo: I feel the scum had control of the game because the town sure didn't.

Eh, that's pretty weird reasoning. I don't think either side had much control. Town was apathetic and you had influence over, like, SpyreX or so.

The town really needed someone to step up and lead.

I don't agree. The town just needed to do stuff, you don't need any leader for that. We had pretty much three lurker lynches in a row, and I don't really object to any of them because no-one put a viable case out there.

I have no idea about the setup. It was close to what I thought it would be, and didn't/don't see how town can get much advantage from it, but I wouldn't say it's hugely imbalanced either way. But then I'm optimistic about vanilla games, so.

[Patrick]

Also, lol at people metagaming me. That's pretty much 100% of people who tried that have failed.

X

[Elmo]

Because you didn't push for my lynch on meta grounds, or what, exactly?

[Patrick]

More just that people have meta'd you plenty of times successfully. This game, eh. I pressured you for doin nothing, and backed off somewhat after your responses. I don't know what stance I'd have taken if I'd been around later. I'm glad I wasn't. Plus I just had a minute online at the end of the break and felt the need to use the BJ style cross again.

[Goatrevolt]

And people thinking Goat was town is just depressing, literally. I just give up.

People kept arguing that I shouldn't be considered town but not a single person presented even 1 reason to consider me scum. Complaining about people considering me town but not actually considering me scum or doing anything at all to push for my lynch is pretty meaningless.

Elmo: I feel the scum had control of the game because the town sure didn't.

Eh, that's pretty weird reasoning. I don't think either side had much control. Town was apathetic and you had influence over, like, SpyreX or so.

It's not weird reasoning at all. Any game where not a single scum player is under threat of being lynched at any point during the game is fairly scum-dominated and scum controlled. Town apathy means the town doesn't bother to take control means the scum are in control. Any game where the town is lost and "apathetic" and weak willed the scum are in control.

As for the apathy argument, I argue some or most of the apathy was a result of the town not having a clue. I think my scum buddies both played a good game and made it difficult to easily peg them. When finding scum is hard, apathy is the path of least resistance. If finding scum were easy, I doubt the town would have been so apathetic.

I argue the town was apathetic because it wasn't easy and because there weren't any roles to play follow the role on. I don't think apathy caused the lack of scumhunting, rather I think the lack of effective scum hunting caused apathy.

[SpyreX]

My apathy came from the fact that it was like pulling teeth to get ANYTHING moving most of the game. There is no reason even with a simple plurality lynch to not push for a real one. And, I couldn't even get that.

[Elmo]

Complaining about people considering me town but not actually considering me scum or doing anything at all to push for my lynch is pretty meaningless.

"People" was me, as far as I can remember. I'm not sure what point you're making here - believing you were town was really bad. I agree it probably wouldn't have changed the outcome if everyone was neutral on you, if that's what you mean, but it's a bugbear of mine. It just mystifies me how people can get it that wrong - there is literally nothing you did that it remotely townish.

It's not weird reasoning at all. Any game where not a single scum player is under threat of being lynched at any point during the game is fairly scum-dominated and scum controlled.

So in a hypothetical game where scum have no influence over the lynch beyond their own votes, but they're under no threat of being lynched, they have control of the game? How does that work? You can pretty much define control as being able to dictate what happens, and they can't do that.

As for the apathy argument, I argue some or most of the apathy was a result of the town not having a clue. I think my scum buddies both played a good game and made it difficult to easily peg them.

Town started getting apathetic like a week into the game. It was effectively lost maybe a couple of days before Night 1. Your scumbuddies played competently, which was sufficient to outplay the town, that's about it. I don't think they played a good game; I just don't see what you think the scum did that brought them the win. Again, we had 1-2-3 lurker lynches, it's not like the scum actually needed to do anything.

This isn't sour grapes, I do think the scum outplayed the town, and I do think the side that played the best won, and I'd be the first to say so if I thought you guys played really well, but the town pretty much rolled over for you here. I probably contributed to that by being absent for a good part of Day 1, which was caused by stuff coming up unexpectedly - which is pretty much bad luck in itself. (shrug)

[Goatrevolt]

Complaining about people considering me town but not actually considering me scum or doing anything at all to push for my lynch is pretty meaningless.

"People" was me, as far as I can remember. I'm not sure what point you're making here - believing you were town was really bad. I agree it probably wouldn't have changed the outcome if everyone was neutral on you, if that's what you mean, but it's a bugbear of mine. It just mystifies me how people can get it that wrong - there is literally nothing you did that it remotely townish.

Eh, this really sounds like a hindsight thing to be honest. You say there is nothing I did this game that was remotely townish. If that were true, I would have been lynched. If that were true, why wouldn't you vote me and never let go? I wasn't exactly a pinnacle of townieness but I feel like I played above the level of the majority of the town, which was good enough to get by. Is there any reason to play above that level? Playing more townie than that just helps the town too much. The only real point anyone raised against me the entire game was that I was scum IF Llama was scum.

So in a hypothetical game where scum have no influence over the lynch beyond their own votes, but they're under no threat of being lynched, they have control of the game? How does that work? You can pretty much define control as being able to dictate what happens, and they can't do that.

Scum absolutely have control of that game. Scum win by not being lynched. If scum aren't in danger of being lynched, they are in the driver seat. They don't have to be actively creating mislynches or actively influencing how townies are acting to be in control. Simply being considered town is sufficient control. Being in control of a game means you are actively affecting how the game is going to end, and if you have no threat of being lynched, you are affecting the outcome, even if it's in less outright manipulative ways.

Town started getting apathetic like a week into the game. It was effectively lost maybe a couple of days before Night 1. Your scumbuddies played competently, which was sufficient to outplay the town, that's about it. I don't think they played a good game; I just don't see what you think the scum did that brought them the win. Again, we had 1-2-3 lurker lynches, it's not like the scum actually needed to do anything.

I think you are underselling the value of how well the scum played. Whether or not the game was 1-2-3 lurker lynches (Llama really wasn't a "lurker" lynch, and neither was TDC, but that's beside the point), the fact is that not a single town player at any point in this game had any kind of a good lead on who was scum. That right there pretty much says it all. What exactly could the scum have done differently to play a "good" game as opposed to a perfect win where the town had absolutely no clue whatsoever? What is good scum play as opposed to what happened in this game? The scum generated mislynches, avoided taking the blame for them, and got townies lynched. This was done in an invitational game against quality players.

Yes, there was a lot of apathy, and no real pushes made by town players, but even the weak pushes were on other townies.

This isn't sour grapes, I do think the scum outplayed the town, and I do think the side that played the best won, and I'd be the first to say so if I thought you guys played really well, but the town pretty much rolled over for you here. I probably contributed to that by being absent for a good part of Day 1, which was caused by stuff coming up unexpectedly - which is pretty much bad luck in itself. (shrug)

The town did fail and shoot itself in the foot. I just don't understand what the criteria is for what constitutes a good scum game and an average scum game. What were suboptimal plays the scum made and why didn't the town jump on them?

[Elmo]

Eh, this really sounds like a hindsight thing to be honest.

No, I said pretty much exactly that at the time. You complained about it, remember?

If scum aren't in danger of being lynched, they are in the driver seat. {..} Simply being considered town is sufficient control.

Those are different things, though. Scum can be no danger of being lynched without being considered town, and indeed sometimes while being considered fairly scummy if other townies are being scummier. The fact that they're not in danger of being lynched doesn't mean that they caused it. If town never lynched lurkers, and all the scum were unexpectedly V/LA, then they're almost certainly not being lynched, through no virtue of their own, and yet they have exercised no control over the outcome of the game.

Whether or not the game was 1-2-3 lurker lynches (Llama really wasn't a "lurker" lynch, and neither was TDC, but that's beside the point)

Llama was at minimum nine tenths of a lurker lynch. From memory, most of the votes on that wagon were largely due to lurking, and I seriously doubt he'd have been lynched if he wasn't V/LA.

the fact is that not a single town player at any point in this game had any kind of a good lead on who was scum. That right there pretty much says it all.

I don't know why you think that's an indicator of good play when you would be hard pressed to find a single town player who was seriously trying after Day 1, if that. Personally, I was tempted not to defend myself on Day 1 and hope I got lynched so I wouldn't have to play out the rest of the game. I played the rest pretty much purely out of a sense of obligation and dropped that somewhere on Day 2; I don't think I reread the game once. Most other people seem to have done similar. If it wasn't obvious, my attitude to Llama was because I literally didn't care who got lynched that day. People weren't looking, so it's wrong to claim that you must have hidden well because they didn't find you.

The scum generated mislynches, avoided taking the blame for them, and got townies lynched.

What mislynches did the scum generate? It's possible you were all incredibly subtle and I missed it, but I think town would have lynched pretty much the same people if scum didn't influence them at all (beyond not playing jester, if you want to say that). We had a lurker lynch, a lurker/"Elmogate" lynch pushed primarily by townies (SpyreX & FLight at least, I think Danny might have been in there too), a 95%-lurker lynch, and then LyLo. I didn't read what happened in LyLo, but it should have been a fairly easy win from there considering the previous days.

This was done in an invitational game against quality players.

This wasn't an invitational, and I'm not going to debate the quality of the players (since I can only really disagree by insulting people) but the quality of the

play

was bad. You can say that Nuwen's a good player, but when she's outright apologising for her play after the game, I don't think you can say that performing better than her in this game is an achievement.

What were suboptimal plays the scum made and why didn't the town jump on them?

I don't think you (plural) played optimally, but more than that, playing optimally against a town doesn't necessarily require playing well. If the town decides to lynch people at random, then optimal play is simply to agree and go along with it. That's pretty difficult to

lose

, let alone requiring any level of play to win.

I guess I'm curious, have you ever been apathetic or part of a very apathetic town? Maybe you don't understand how anyone could actually take that attitude, since it's alien to you. Gotta win win win, aye?

[Elmo]

As an aside, I vaguely remember elias complaining that he didn't get a scummie nom for The Pine Barrens, which amused me greatly. Symmetrically, KoC thought we should get a scummie for BSG Mafia just because the town demolished the scum when actually, the scum were just crap. I guess this is the kind of thing I find analogous, although obviously not as accentuated.

[Goatrevolt]

I can't say I've been a part of an apathetic town before, but then again I generally try to generate reads and information when I'm town, and I try to push home lynches. So I suppose this is alien to me. It's not "gotta win win win" but rather, "why the hell am I playing this game if I don't even care who wins and I'm not trying?" Also, I definitely don't think the scum deserved a scummy for this game. I think we played well, and I think much credit should go to the scum for the victory (as opposed to simply blaming town on the loss) but it clearly wasn't an award-worthy performance by any stretch. I simply object to the sentiment "you didn't play well, we just played worse" because I think the scum did play well.

[Elmo]

"why the hell am I playing this game if I don't even care who wins and I'm not trying?"

Because I signed up in the hopes of a fun game, and I can't un-signup once I've discovered that's not going to be, basically. Did you have fun this game? I've absolutely hated some games that I ended up winning in similar fashion, from memory, but for some reason I imagine you enjoyed it.

I still have no idea why you think the scum played well; you haven't answered that beyond essentially saying they played better than the town, which (as far as I can see) we agree isn't sufficient. I also don't know which mislynches you think the scum generated (that required non-jester-level play).

[Goatrevolt]

I enjoyed it less than other games I've played, definitely.

I have explained why the scum played well. Nobody in the town had any clue, and perfect win. While some of that can obviously be blamed on poor town play, you can't simply say it's all poor town play. On the flip side, what did the scum do this game that made them play only an average game as opposed to a good game? What were some moves that could have made this exceptional scum play? Is there any scum play that could possibly have happened in this game you would consider good, or does poor town play automatically mean that the scum get a "you played ok" regardless of whether that is actually true or not? I feel like the town playing poorly means the scum automatically get knocked down two notches on how well they played as well, whether that is true or false.

[forbiddanlight]

Eh, yanno what? My mind can't really process this.

How bout this.

LG, Batt, and Llama are scum.

I have no idea why, but this will now be my assumption from now on

as such,

Vote Llamafluff

Oh hey, remember this list?

It's really sad that I didn't stick with it :S.

Random guessing with a couple people removed led to two scum :S.

[Patrick]

Vote: Battousai
FoS: Lord Gurgi

Remember this randoming? I'm really sad I didn't stick with it.

[forbiddanlight]

Vote: Battousai
FoS: Lord Gurgi

Remember this randoming? I'm really sad I didn't stick with it.

Apparently our neurons were telling us something.

That our neurons hate scum.