Mini 843- The Fast and the Furious Mafia! (Over-Mod Error)

[don_johnson]

Is that absolutely necessary? Do you have no tact at all?

no, but its funny.

and yes. no tact here. have we met?

[MordyS]

Why is he not scummy enough to deal with at the moment?

Because you're striking me as way scummier, and he's on board for that. It's a pragmatic decision. As long as he supports crusades against scum, he's useful. And as my major issue with him is his bandwagoning, it doesn't make sense to attack him for doing so when it's useful. Besides, it's not like he's refused to join a wagon yet, so either he's willing to bus every last one of his scum partners, or he's not scum. (Maybe an SK, tho? Who knows. Today is not the day for SK hunting.)

[Knight of Cydonia]

Wot I Think
(As with all WIT's when replacing into games, this is being written as I read through, and my opinions of players are likely to change as we go. Attempting to build a case on this will be viewed dimly at best.)
Skipping the RVS stage, because it was so damn short.

^^ what he said.

vote: boxman

post 23 is a modified piggyback reason of of post 22. during rvs, players "randomly" vote other players, however, the "randomness" of many votes is extremely questionable thus prompting scum players to overcompensate in making absolutely sure that their vote is interpreted as in fact, "random". this is clearly what has happened here and boxman should be lynched forthwith. a similar argument could be brought against doombunny, but by being first, he scores points for originality and should thusly be lynched second, as opposed to first. hm.

MordyS initially comes across as genuinely just playing for a reaction in this absurd-o-wagon, but don_johnson's reason for hopping on is terrible. Questioning the randomness of RVS votes is like questioning the existence of the cat in Schrodinger's box. Basing a wagon-vote on it (and not even having the smarts to pretend to be doing anything other than "what he said" voting, is... euch.
Kodamma scores slightly more scumpoints for just admitting "Hurr Durr, I Liek Wagonz" and jumping on, and the quick jump-off strikes me as someone who didn't genuinely think "Hey, this is going to get interesting reactions, I'll go with it and defend it." Boxman OMGUSes hard, and with good reason, since it is a pretty much unexplained wagon at this point- an RVS vote and 3 "Yaaay, wagon!" votes. Kodamma and Faraday interplay is interesting, they're clearly taking shots at each other, but it feels kinda half-hearted. MordyS on page 3 sums up my thoughts on Kodamma at this point... then insta-jumps onto this new wagon. A couple of people at this point are making the mistake of assuming that, since don_johnson gave a reason, it must make him less scummy. It doesn't, because it was a crap reason combined with a jump on a wagon. Starbuck's inconsistency over MordyS starting the wagon/just being a wagoner is interesting. roland sliiides on in and defends DJ's crapvote - loving the chainsaw, dude, loving it. Interestingly, at this point, both Mordy and rolandgarros have claimed DJ's vote was a jokevote... but DJ hasn't. If I had been Tjoe at this point, I'd have made pretty much the same vote he did here: Kodamma voted with no reason, then jumped off "to avoid pressuring players" (which is, y'know, the point of Mafia - pressure people into scumslips, lynch scum, PROFIT). Doombunny is right that he didn't add anything new, but is there really anything new to add at this point in the game? Any case is going to be a small case.
DJ re-appears, questions Boxman, then unvotes and simply says "yeah, they were right, these guys are reading my mind, man." Faraday at the top of page 4 makes a teeeny case on Kodamma, a slightly more substantial one pointing out Starbuck's strawmanning of Mordy, then... votes Kodamma. Right.

dj's not lurking. he's just been busy. haven't done a thorough read through here, but i agree with the suspicion on starbuck.

This is the kind of thing dj has been doing that annoys me. "Oh, I haven't read properly, but I'm going to agree with this stuff for the sake of looking like scumhunting."
A lot of the stuff thrown at Starbuck seems to be accusations of lurking out of arguments, but Starbuck spends (and I know this from the last couple of games I've played with her) a LOT of time out of the game because of RL. I suffer from the same problem: work, college and RL add up, and they all come before this site. When she has posted, she's answered the questions levelled at her: but it's the silences people are playing on.
Boxman's ISO reads leave much to be desired - because they're all 1 liners. Oh, and he invokes meta on my predecessor to excuse poor play. Mmmkay. Buddy much? Faraday gets it pretty much spot-on about Tjoe: there is a difference between playing in an anti-town style, and being scummy. Scum like to switch these terms about, Faraday doesn't.
MordyS's 151 is horrible. WIFOM and accusations of "lacklustre readings and manufacturing scumminess" without any kind of back-up. In fact, a lot of his D1 is ad-hom. Bit of a null-tell, since even townies fall into ad-hom sometimes, but the fact he sustains it for so long is interesting.

^^ ok, so it's going to be one of those games.

i am now officially entering "skim" mode until further notice.

anyone care to garner my vote towards a lynch?

NO. BAD DON JOHNSON. I'd like to say this is a one off thing, but it really doesn't appear to be.

@Doom- the turning point is where I realized that a lot of what I was getting suspicious about is just his way of scum hunting. Once I put things in that light, I'm able to say I'm leaning town on him.

This allows you to excuse any amount of scummy play by simply saying "yeah, but that's just how he rolls." It's why I hate playing with the likes of zwet/killa seven. And this interaction between confirmed dead-scum and currently alive unconfirmed is... interesting.

vote: animorphery

"oh no he didn't!"

yes. he did.

/facepalm.
Really?

So, uh, huge posting now, officially going to look at that later. It's too big.

I'm unsure who to vote for, I might just wait and see who looks scummier...

Hey, here's some tweezers. You're gonna need them for the splinters you're gonna get from sitting on that fence so hard. ¬_¬

DJ, you're definitely lurking a lot more this game than the last one we played together (where you were town and IIRC, I was scum). Any particular reason why?

mostly rl time constraints. also, i try to play differently in each game to a certain extent to avoid "meta" references. but no, no real particular reason. things seem to be humming along without me and the quote walls are a bit over the top.

Actively playing to avoid generating a meta + admitting to active-lurking to avoid having to comment on the walls of text with lots of good stuff in them = scummy.

^^ requesting mod kill

"oh no he didn't?"

yes. he did.

Would afatchic have noticed this if DJ hadn't pointed it out? Maybe, maybe not. At the end of the day, though, this was entirely un-necessary. Requesting a mod-kill on a claimed doctor? Not pro-town. Not pro-town at all.

i have to go with my gut here and think spyrex must be scum. sorry, man, but you should get whacked night one, all the time, when you are town.

spyrex: who do you think is scum?

So, you say your gut says he's scum, then ask him who he thinks scum is? Right...

I think it's a pretty huge coincidence that Starbuck's partner who stood her up last night (and is, therefore, the only person who could verify or debunk her story) also happened to be a night lynch.

Except that, if Starbuck WASN'T Doombunny's partner, the real other neighbour could CC, and we'd have a 1v1 for scum. This kind of sideways accusation with no real backup is pretty scummy. DJ does his first decent piece of hunting all game and picks up on this, then suddenly MordyS "didn't realise" Doombunny was the dead neighbour... Which doesn't seem to add up with the above post.

don_johnson is full of ad-hom and some terrible reasoning: he seems to have decided "Spyrex looks town, so let's follow his lead without any decent thinking of my own but ad-hom".

Tjoe/Me gets pressured into a claim. I can't read minds, he may well have been genuinely making a gambit here, but I think the way he got pushed into the claim suggests scum on the wagon. And who put him to L-1, then unvoted as soon as the power was claimed? Don Johnson. Patterns, they are emerging.

He can't stall long enough to take the heat off, and if he comes back and can't explain himself, I'd be happy to pull the trigger on the inventor.

Either you believed the claim, and just didn't care (poor play) or you were happy to lynch a claimed inventor before he got around to saying who he handed an item to. -slowclap-

unvote

I can't imagine a scum inventor, and I don't think Faraday is scum, so I'm guessing this is legit.

maybe you're not trying hard enough.

vote: tjoe

spyrex brings up a good point. again.

Wh... wh... Oh dear god. HOW HAS THIS GUY NOT BEEN LYNCHED?

JereIC has been active-lurking a lot. I hope my invention, whatever it is, wakes him up a bit.
SK and DJ's fight looks a lot like DJ trying to bus his partner out - SK makes a decent case as scum, DJ one-lines it away, and basically becomes zwet but less entertaining.

I sometimes wish I was a dayvig, just once

Anyway, still quite happy w/ a DJ lynch. He's done nothing to change my mind imo.

Spyrex still looks fairly towntowntown. Boxman be rubbing me the wrong way (mind out of the gutter, plz ) so i'll probs go back and read him in iso when i get a chance.
Aka wednesday or tomorrow, have exams tuesday.

the dj wagon isn't happening. shadow knight is getting lynched today. please get with the program.

Hate this kind of posting. Any wagon can happen if people present a better case.

This brings me to the end of Day 2. Based on this, I will now

Vote: don_johnson

. I would be entirely unsurprised if he was bussing SK while hanging on Spyrex-town's coat-tails.

[MordyS]

I'm on board with you, KoC, until you get to the ShadowKnight lynch. It seems outside the realm of possibility to imagine that two scum partners decided to start bussing each other to death. I've never seen a scum bus work that way (since attacking each other would make both of them look bad, and bussing is a strategy to clear one scum by attacking the other, no?).

SK and DJ's fight looks a lot like DJ trying to bus his partner out - SK makes a decent case as scum, DJ one-lines it away, and basically becomes zwet but less entertaining.

I don't get the inside-baseball (who's zwet?), but I also don't buy this read. Dead scum win with scum, just as much as live scum do. I don't believe that DJ starts bussing SK and SK decides his best chance to get out is to attack his partner back. If it were simply distancing that would be one thing, but SK ends up throwing everything at DJ in a last ditch attempt to turn the lynch.

[don_johnson]

KoC, couple things:

the animorph vote was later explained. you fail to address that.

Requesting a mod-kill on a claimed doctor? Not pro-town. Not pro-town at all.

if you think hard enough, then there are a couple situations in which my call for mod-kill makes perfect sense. also, regardless of those situations i believe in fair play. all players are responsible for maintaining a balanced and rule abiding game state.

And who put him to L-1, then unvoted as soon as the power was claimed? Don Johnson. Patterns, they are emerging.

unvoting a claimed power role at L-1 is null tell at best.

SK makes a decent case as scum

please clarify this statement. are you saying that SK made a decent case on someone else? or are you saying that SK, himself, looked like a decent case as scum?

DJ one-lines it away, and basically becomes zwet but less entertaining.

KoC: do you think Animorph was town or scum?

if town, then he was doctor because town has no reason to lie. if we lost our doctor day 1, how do you explain the absence of ANY nightkills on night 2?

what are your thoughts on the case against starbuck? oh, which reminds me:

When she has posted, she's answered the questions levelled at her: but it's the silences people are playing on.

^^ NO. the initial pressure on star may have had to do with lurking, but it was her continued avoidance of the issue and reluctance to answer the case against her which brought more of a shitstorm. it was only until she did answer that she was unvoted and the pressure decreased.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Requesting a mod-kill on a claimed doctor? Not pro-town. Not pro-town at all.

if you think hard enough, then there are a couple situations in which my call for mod-kill makes perfect sense. also, regardless of those situations i believe in fair play. all players are responsible for maintaining a balanced and rule abiding game state.

And who put him to L-1, then unvoted as soon as the power was claimed? Don Johnson. Patterns, they are emerging.

unvoting a claimed power role at L-1 is null tell at best.

Yes, it is. Putting the L-1 vote on with no reasoning, ordering a claim, then jumping off straight after that claim, however, is NOT a null-tell. And that's what you did.

SK makes a decent case as scum

please clarify this statement. are you saying that SK made a decent case on someone else? or are you saying that SK, himself, looked like a decent case as scum?

DJ one-lines it away, and basically becomes zwet but less entertaining.

Misrepresentation here. Let's look at the whole quote:

SK and DJ's fight looks a lot like DJ trying to bus his partner out - SK makes a decent case as scum, DJ one-lines it away, and basically becomes zwet but less entertaining.

The way you've dissected it makes it look like I'm complaining about you one-lining away a case against someone else, when it was a fairly good case against you.

KoC: do you think Animorph was town or scum?

if town, then he was doctor because town has no reason to lie. if we lost our doctor day 1, how do you explain the absence of ANY nightkills on night 2?

I think he was town, and I think he probably was a protective role of some sort. However, speculation on this is useless - protectives roles have a fairly sketchy chance of getting a successful protect, so relying massively on them is pointless in well-designed setups.
As for the lack of kills: we don't know what my invention did for Faraday, we don't know about any other town PRs that might have helped with this, and the scum could well be forced to pick between a kill and their power (since I'm assuming the "no vanilla" line of this game applies to no vanilla-scum too).

what are your thoughts on the case against starbuck? oh, which reminds me:

When she has posted, she's answered the questions levelled at her: but it's the silences people are playing on.

^^ NO. the initial pressure on star may have had to do with lurking, but it was her continued avoidance of the issue and reluctance to answer the case against her which brought more of a shitstorm. it was only until she did answer that she was unvoted and the pressure decreased.[/quote]

...so you're agreeing with me? She didn't "avoid the issue", you just didn't like the (valid, IMHO) answers you got. When she said what you wanted to hear, you let off and jumped on other wagons.

[Knight of Cydonia]

EBWOP: the last part of that post should read:

what are your thoughts on the case against starbuck? oh, which reminds me:

KoC wrote:
When she has posted, she's answered the questions levelled at her: but it's the silences people are playing on.


^^ NO. the initial pressure on star may have had to do with lurking, but it was her continued avoidance of the issue and reluctance to answer the case against her which brought more of a shitstorm. it was only until she did answer that she was unvoted and the pressure decreased.

...so you're agreeing with me? She didn't "avoid the issue", you just didn't like the (valid, IMHO) answers you got. When she said what you wanted to hear, you let off and jumped on other wagons.

Mod: if you could edit it to reflect that and remove this post, it'd be appreciated.

[don_johnson]

Yes, it is. Putting the L-1 vote on with no reasoning, ordering a claim, then jumping off straight after that claim, however, is NOT a null-tell. And that's what you did.

so you are saying that a townie wouldn't get off the wagon of a claimed power role? this is wifom, btw.

Misrepresentation here.

no. you read it wrong. the second quote was responded to with the frowning face. it makes me sad that you don't find me entertaining.

i asked you to clarify your statement about SK and the "decent case". apparently, you think that SK(confirmed scum) presented a "decent case" against me. do i have that right?

I think he was town, and I think he probably was a protective role of some sort.

he claimed doctor. what reason on earth would a townie who is not doctor claim doctor? by claiming doctor when one is not doctor, one invites a counterclaim from the real doctor. are you saying that you think animorph was a complete moron? i don't think you are.

anitown=doctor. no other logical explanation. not a "protective role of some sort". doctor or scum. no other logical conclusion.

...so you're agreeing with me? She didn't "avoid the issue", you just didn't like the (valid, IMHO) answers you got. When she said what you wanted to hear, you let off and jumped on other wagons.

exsqueeze me? no, you stated this:

When she has posted, she's answered the questions levelled at her: but

it's the silences people are playing on

.

people weren't "playing" on the silences. someone made a case against her when she claimed that she didn't have time for this game. the evidence presented was presented in a way which made it look like star was lieing about the reasons surrounding her inactivity. she

refused to address

what was a completely and entirely refutable case based on time-stamped posts. it was her refusal to address the case which brought more pressure. when she chose to address the case and did so in a way that showed the case was poor, suspicion naturally moved to the player who had made the case. i am not the only player who followed this line of suspicion by a long shot.

she didn't answer the questions levelled at her until pressure was applied. if we agree, then we agree that starbuck has only responded to pressure and nothing more.

[Knight of Cydonia]

You mean, like you're only responding to pressure now?
Because you haven't been coasting through this game just laying down votes with "Oh no he didn't!" up to this point, or hanging on SpyreX's coattails all game?
You're arguing points of semantics that have absolutely nothing to do with the principal reasons I'm voting you, and for that, I'm more than happy with where my vote is.

Yes, it is. Putting the L-1 vote on with no reasoning, ordering a claim, then jumping off straight after that claim, however, is NOT a null-tell. And that's what you did.

so you are saying that a townie wouldn't get off the wagon of a claimed power role? this is wifom, btw.

Misrepresentation AGAIN. I'm not saying a townie wouldn't get off the wagon. I'm saying a townie wouldn't put a vote on as you did with NO reasoning, purely for the claim, then jump off again.

anitown=doctor. no other logical explanation. not a "protective role of some sort". doctor or scum. no other logical conclusion.

There are several different types of Doctor. anitown could have been a Weak Doctor, an Insane Doctor (chance to kill patient), a Illiterate Doctor (Can't measure doses properly, so can't protect 2 nights in a row on one person or they die - I've used this role before in Chzo Mafia, if you're going to go "Never seen it"), he could quite easily have been lying and actually been a bodyguard. Think about it - a bodyguard dies in place of the person they protect. By claiming doctor, ani would (if he hadn't gotten himself modkilled) have drawn a kill away - precisely what a bodyguard does.

[JereIC]

Now a question for you JereIC: Who do you think is scummy?

The order really hasn't changed from the last time I post my scum list - you, DJ, and Starbuck. Main change is I'm getting scummier vibes from Boxman now (I'd say for lurking, but pot, kettle, black, etc.). The fact that you and DJ were on SK's bandwagon isn't enough to make me get town reads off of you two. Your participation on the SK bandwagon felt half-hearted, and you tried to support his claim (e.g. asking if he had posted any breadcrumbs), while DJ is just doing whatever SpyreX says. That said:

Do you think Starbuck makes a good target for today?

I do. She is, in fact, very scummy and a really good lynch choice for today. The cases you and SpyreX have made against her have been really solid. The subtle way SK defended her is a great catch. She's been contradicting herself, distorting what other people have been saying to try to make them look scummier, and has only scum hunted when pressure has been put on her. There is honestly very little that appears weak in the case against her. My questions to you and SpyreX were the points I was uncertain about, and as you noted they weren't too complex (although you flubbed the answers - I feel like I've been tunneling on you already, though, so I'm going to ignore that for now).

Just glancing through Starbuck's posts in isolation, I've noticed that she hasn't posted a consistent list of scum suspects. She said she was "leaning" towards DJ and me (iso 107) but at other times she's implied suspicion of Boxman and DJ (iso 92), me (iso 93), SpyreX (iso 96), Mordy, DJ, and SpyreX (iso 105), and Boxman (iso 109). From that, it looks like she's casting suspicion throughout the player list now that she's under pressure (except for the mostly confirmable KoC) and doesn't have an actual list of scum suspects.

[don_johnson]

fun fact: there is no character named vin in the fast and furious film series according to the wiki. in fact, vin is the name of the actor playing dominic, who is brian's friend in the movie. brian is the confirmed scum in this thread.

mod: am i out of bounds with my investigative tactics here?

how am i only responding to pressure? please find an example in this thread where i have avoided responding to anyone. you can't do it. sure i have some one-liners, but every question tossed my way has been answered post-haste.

You're arguing points of semantics

which ones? i don't recall arguing semantics with you.

I'm saying a townie wouldn't put a vote on as you did with NO reasoning, purely for the claim, then jump off again.

i jumped off to avoid a quicklynch. if you continue reading you will see where i actually jump on again. so which is it? is "on" scummy or "off"? are you sure i placed my vote with no reasoning?

There are several different types of Doctor. anitown could have been a Weak Doctor, an Insane Doctor (chance to kill patient), a Illiterate Doctor (Can't measure doses properly, so can't protect 2 nights in a row on one person or they die - I've used this role before in Chzo Mafia, if you're going to go "Never seen it"), he could quite easily have been lying and actually been a bodyguard. Think about it - a bodyguard dies in place of the person they protect. By claiming doctor, ani would (if he hadn't gotten himself modkilled) have drawn a kill away - precisely what a bodyguard does.

and that is worth the risk of exposing the "real" doctor and losing two town power roles at once? i don't think so.

[don_johnson]

ebwop: also, please stop crying "misrep". asking questions of you to clarify your stance is not misrep. making broad statements without seeking clarification is.

[Starbuck]

fun fact: there is no character named vin in the fast and furious film series according to the wiki. in fact, vin is the name of the actor playing dominic, who is brian's friend in the movie. brian is the confirmed scum in this thread.

There is a character named Vince though. Time to go reevaluate your Wiki.

[don_johnson]

vin=/=vincent.

possible, but unlikely. he clearly wrote "vin".

so, do you agree with KoC in that ani possibly fakeclaimed "doctor" as town?

how do you feel about KoC's accusations against me?

[SpyreX]

Woosh. Looks like I get to do a lot of posting up in here. Good. Starbuck first.

You could go through every person in this game's iso and find someone who they really didn't talk about much. Quit taking my words out of context.

Go for it. Pick me. Go through. Find someone I don't talk about much and

then when I do I defend.

Have a ball with that.

How is the implication clear? It's not.

So why would the following not be an SK, but a vig? This is quite WIFOM-y.

I did mention here that I did acknowledge the fact of a third party. I said SK, but it could very well not be an SK.

If you are telling me there is no implication in that quoted post that you think he is a doctor and not a survivor I don't know what to tell you. I'd love others to look at it because if that's what you're holding onto then you posted that arguing with me for the sake of arguing. Which, again, is awesome.

Considering the stance I took, the idea of a Survivor / SK / Mafia Group (under the assumation of 3 mafia) in a mini seem unbalanced hence that kill would have been from a vig. How in the blue blazes is that WIFOM.

but I was looking for the post in which you said it in, and I cannot find it. Can you link me please?

Sure. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=320

Although, since this is the post RIGHT ABOVE the one we're talking about this is code for I'm not even looking at what I posted then. Fine, though.

I said that I "DON'T THINK" that he was a neutral survivor. I NEVER once said that he couldn't be. Way to strawman.

No. What am I strawmanning this time? Keep on keeping on with the buzzwords.

But, again, if posting to refute my stance plus bolding the word doctor does not mean that you thought he was a doctor (I never implied nor explicitly said definites anywhere so at heart this argument doesn't even make sense but) well, swish.

I implied that he wasn't a neutral survivor.

At first (because of the flavor in his kill post), I assumed that he was a doctor because that's what afatchic had written him up as saying. Afatchic later corrects us and says that he just used whatever was the last thing that Ani said. The last thing that Ani said was that he was a doctor, so I figured that since this whole game is PRs that Afatchic would not reveal Ani's role to us, and therefore paint them as a neutral survivor. I have seen this done once before in the Large Theme Death Note game that I played in. A modkill occurred and the mod didn't reveal the role of the person and just said they were a Neutral Survivor.

My posts about the SK lynch can be found in 577 and 583. I said "Animo said was that he was Vin, doctor (I know, I know, bad bad name claims but it's out there). How likely is it that Vin would be a doctor?". Who are you referring to in your question? You say "he" but you don't say whether you are referring to SK or to Animo.

I think you are mixing up what I said about SK and what I said about Animo.

The bolded... I... you just got done IN THIS POST saying more than once that there was no implication and that I was strawmanning you and WIFOMING and whatever the hell else... and then just said you did.

It..brain... melt... halp me.

And once before you've seen a modkill flip that way. Once before. That is the new "you should know SpyreX" nudge at me making things up to get you lynched. Awesome. Just. Awesome.

As for the latter. You have just said right up here that your assumation was that he was a doctor. And then said nothing else about it. Until you came out to defend SK.

I'm not mixing anything up.

How is the fact that I never have been replaced and that I replace into more games than I start part of my meta? It's fact, and can be easily found out. I would think meta is how you play and how you act in game, not how you end up in a game either by starting it from the beginning or replacing in.

That is meta. I don't know what else to tell you. Meta, the short hand for metagaming, is using outside information to alter the state of a game.

Saying "look at my wiki" is meta.
Tjoe's "outside influences" is meta.
My calling you out about posting 13 times when you were working on your reread is meta.

So, you have been fairly consistent on meta = good when its for me and meta = bad when its against me.

How does it equate to everyone?

Let's look at all the bandwagons shall we?

Day 1 - Before the modkill, we have this:

animorpherv1-(6)-Faraday, RossWilliam, Doombunny9,

don_johnson, SpyerX, MordyS

Day 2 -

Shadow Knight-(5)-

SpyerX,

Boxman,

don_johnson, MordyS

, JereIC

Day 3 -

Starbuck-(4)-

MordyS, SpyerX, don_johnson,

Boxman

Look who's all on bandwagons every single day.

So, what you're saying is scum hasn't been lynched and we three are the scum? Or that DJ being on 1.5 finished wagons that have lynched a scum makes him scum? Or?

You said that SK's partners would be trying to distance from him. Distance = bussing then?

When did I say that it didn't look damning? Please refer to Post 597 because this is not a new revelation as you claim it to be.

Wow I must have made that up. Wait. Lets look up at this page (730) for my first response to this:

4. Someone not talking about someone else isn't always a scum tell

WELP.

Because DJ has committed some very questionable behavior as I highlighted in my iso read of him, and I'm not the only one who has thought so, see Post 737.

Yea, the flipped scum sure went after him as scum.
The example you gave was very hands up in the air.
However, it really is moot. Considering my POWARS DJ has put himself in ultimately an unwinnable situation if he is scum. So.

I really don't get the wording of this question. Can you rephrase please?

SK jumped all crazy pants all over DJ in an effort to try and save himself. You have opted to do the exact same thing. Patterns do have meaning.

Because I do find DJ to be the scummiest, but as of late you are starting to creep up there as well.

I'm scum, the scoop is in!

If I get my druthers, I'll go ahead and do a review on the correlation between who Starbuck thinks is scum and who thinks Starbuck is scum.

(Hint: the result is going to be a million billion)

Now on to other things.

[don_johnson]

also: vincent was a member of dominic's crew. dominic's crew is a gang of car thieves and hi-jackers, no?

[SpyreX]

Would afatchic have noticed this if DJ hadn't pointed it out? Maybe, maybe not. At the end of the day, though, this was entirely un-necessary. Requesting a mod-kill on a claimed doctor? Not pro-town. Not pro-town at all.

If I had been up on the rules I would have done it too (I have this bad habit of not reading the rules though sooo). Is it pro-town? It really depends. If we had a real flip and it WAS scum DJ would have been all but confirmed.

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MordyS's 753 I like. What with the sense and all.

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Misrepresentation AGAIN. I'm not saying a townie wouldn't get off the wagon. I'm saying a townie wouldn't put a vote on as you did with NO reasoning, purely for the claim, then jump off again.

I'd totally do that. Just sayin'.

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As for anim ultimately as awesome as it would be for him to be scum I'm assuming (after the mod edicts) that he was town and thus was what he claimed to be.

Assuming the worst case scenario makes sure there's no april fools style secret lylo and hell if I'm wrong and he is scum well all the better.

[Knight of Cydonia]

SpyreX, holding you up as a model of townie play is like holding zwetschenwasser up as a model of consistency. IT. JUST. DOESN'T. WORK.

[Starbuck]

SpyreX, holding you up as a model of townie play is like holding zwetschenwasser up as a model of consistency. IT. JUST. DOESN'T. WORK.

I completely love this analogy.

[SpyreX]

SpyreX, holding you up as a model of townie play is like holding zwetschenwasser up as a model of consistency. IT. JUST. DOESN'T. WORK.

Well that was mean.

Actually, what in the hell does that mean? I'm anti-town? I dont play "like a townie"?

And, fault zwet on many things - he is consistent.

But, yes, if its in the rules I'd spike for a modkill because thats the rules. If there was someone who was hand-wringing about a claim I would spike them up to get the claim and move on.

Kudos to the pair of posts though.

[SpyreX]

EBWOP: If I was prescient and knew that the modflip was going to be ???? I would grind my teeth and then still ask for the modkill.

And, back to 100% rooted in sense:

KoC,

I'm assuming since you haven't said otherwise Tjoe's claim is what you're sticking to. Yes no.
What do you think about Starbuck's play? I see a lot of attack on DJ but not a whole lot on Starbuck.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I think Starbuck made a bad start, yes, and I agree she has been far too quiet, but I expect being posted to Italy would put a crimp in most people's posting routines on this site. There's stuff early on I'd wonder about, and would warrant a closer look if we reach LyLo, but I don't rank her anywhere near as scummy as don_johnson, who I believe is more than likely the best lynch for today.

And yes, of course I'm sticking to my claim of inventor with 11 items that I don't know about.

Also, just spotted this:

which ones? i don't recall arguing semantics with you.

Okay, semantics isn't necessarily the best word here - you're arguing points ENTIRELY unrelated to my accusations against you (such as Starbuck) with the clear intent of proving me wrong(which you haven't) on one irrelevant point, and using that one irrelevant point to somehow toss down my accusations against you, the majority of which have gone unanswered.

[MordyS]

KoC, can you answer my 753?

Also, is this Zwet guy going to become important to the game? He's now been mentioned twice (once w/r/t DJ and then once w/r/t SpyreX). If he is, can I get an explanation?

[Knight of Cydonia]

I'm on board with you, KoC, until you get to the ShadowKnight lynch. It seems outside the realm of possibility to imagine that two scum partners decided to start bussing each other to death. I've never seen a scum bus work that way (since attacking each other would make both of them look bad, and bussing is a strategy to clear one scum by attacking the other, no?).

SK and DJ's fight looks a lot like DJ trying to bus his partner out - SK makes a decent case as scum, DJ one-lines it away, and basically becomes zwet but less entertaining.

I don't get the inside-baseball (who's zwet?), but I also don't buy this read. Dead scum win with scum, just as much as live scum do. I don't believe that DJ starts bussing SK and SK decides his best chance to get out is to attack his partner back. If it were simply distancing that would be one thing, but SK ends up throwing everything at DJ in a last ditch attempt to turn the lynch.

They didn't bus each other to death, though. don_johnson is playing ridiculously, and he bussed considerably harder on SK than SK did on him.
I think if it wasn't for don_johnson's generally poor play, it might have well earned him more brownie points, but the general lack of interaction between the two, plus the way don_johnson's response was done (quote wall with one-line responses) makes me think it might have been SK knowing he was going down, and distancing himself from don_johnson to give don a better chance. Nobody at the time really agreed with SK's case, but it made don_johnson look like a townie being attacked by doomed scum, basically.
As for the second question: zwetschenwasser is the best worst player on this site, and makes don_johnson look like an amateur troll from 4chan. His vote reasoning and general play style is erratic at best, and he will always hammer. ALWAYS.

[MordyS]

I'm not presenting this as a full case against KoC, but this current attack on DJ worries me. Even though I too find DJ suspicious, KoC is presenting the SK lynch in a very disingenuous manner.

They didn't bus each other to death, though. don_johnson is playing ridiculously, and he bussed considerably harder on SK than SK did on him.
I think if it wasn't for don_johnson's generally poor play, it might have well earned him more brownie points, but the general lack of interaction between the two, plus the way don_johnson's response was done (quote wall with one-line responses) makes me think it might have been SK knowing he was going down, and distancing himself from don_johnson to give don a better chance. Nobody at the time really agreed with SK's case, but it made don_johnson look like a townie being attacked by doomed scum, basically.

In particular, "he bussed considerably harder on SK than SK did on him," and "it might have been SK knowing he was going down, and distancing himself from don_johnson to give don a better chance." I point everyone's attention to the cases SK made on DJ. It begins in full force when SK only had three votes on him (SpyreX, DJ, and Boxman). In post 511, he writes a huge post attacking DJ. Not only does the tone of the post suggest to me that he wasn't just distancing (coupled with the fact that he was only at L-2 at that moment), but his arguments are ones that Starbuck and KoC have relied almost exclusively on for today! I'm not claiming this is a scumtell coincidence, but merely that the substance-free distancing one would expect in an interaction between two busing scum is not present.

If SK wanted toothless arguments against DJ, how can you explain that he picked arguments that you yourself find convincing? For instance, in post 549:

I'm not using his lurking as a reason to lynch him. I'm pointing out that when he *is* here, he's avoiding responsibility for his actions by touting Spyre's scum-hunting ability. I think that Spyre actually *believes* his case against me. I think DJ is opportunistically egging on a townie who has decided to attack another townie. That is why I'm voting DJ, not Spyre.

Or in his October 6th post, WAY before he was at L-1, he immediately starts going after DJ without hesitation. THERE IS NO WAY THIS HAPPENS IF THEY'RE BOTH SCUM:

With Tjoe effectively being a confirmable townie, my next suspect is DJ. There will be a PBPA of him tomorrow. My gut is screaming that Spyre is scum, but I know that's simply because he can't seem to stop attacking me.

It's just inconsistent with everything I know to believe that at L-2, seeing a fellow scum on the wagon, SK decides to defend himself by going after DJ. Especially since he could have avoided being lynched at this point easily. He might not have known this, but I wasn't sold on the wagon until much later, when SpyreX points out the inconsistencies in his role claims and mentions that even if he is bodyguard, we'll never know who he protected if he protects successfully, since that'll kill him (Also, tho I can't remember who, made the excellent case that he's willing to die to protect SpyreX... because he's afraid of SpyreX being left alive and then him dying). His attacks on DJ way predate his bodyguard claim.

EBWODP- and if no one has noticed, I beg you to go back and look at how often DJ asks others who they think is scum without putting forth his own thoughts. He is scum and if you all can't see that, then we deserve to lose this game.

Really? This is distancing?