Perfectionist Mafia - Resultas

[Sanjay]

Wickedestjr, I'm going to take you a bit out of order in answering your questions because it makes a little more sense to me. Do tell if I've taken you out of context:

Sanjay, what was the purpose of that big post you made? Did it have any unique purpose in comparison to your other posts, or was it just another post?

The big post had a few purposes. One, it was to present anything interesting I found on a reread. Two, it was to give everyone a reason to post and at the very least give everyone a question to answer. It wasn't as important for the more active players, but I figured I might as well not leave anyone out.

I'll admit that my question to My Milked Eek was borne more out of curiosity than scumhunting. The idea of emoticons as a tell is interesting to me and one I like to joke about.

This seems like a bit of a convenient answer for scum to make. It sort of gives you license to pull a "surely I must be town because I would be much more cautious as scum" defense whenever suspicion gets on you.

I have been/Still am waiting to get a scum role pm for a while, so if I got a scum role pm, I wouldn't get too fancy with strategic moves that I wouldn't make as town. I'd just try to put myself in the position of a townie and play the way I normally would, while trying to avoid the
anti-town looking things I do as town. I think I should have said that before. How serious was this quote? How much did you think that was my actual motivation?

I was having some trouble coming up with a question for you and I came up with this. I actually don't think I stand by what I said here anymore because now that I think about it, it seems like it would be much easier for scum just to be honest here and not jeopardize being caught in a lie.

So at the time I thought it could be your actual motivation, but now I'm thinking that even if you were scum it is a bit unlikely.

While I was writing up the post you made this post and there were some things I was more curious about based on it. But I saw no reason at the time not to leave in the other question.

You have a neutral read on Lowell, a neutral/scum read on nook and a neutral/town read on SolemnJ. Could you explain where the difference is coming from?

Lowell is a player that I have a lot of trouble getting a good/correct read on. He hardly posts anything, and even when he does post I have no clue what his allignment is, because he has done some really anti-town things that make you think he is obviously scum, but then he flips town.

nook is a player that hasn't posted any decent content and has voted a lurker. I just need a few more posts to reassure me that she is scum though. That is why it is almost neutral.

SolemnJ is a player that I don't think is scum, because there are other players that I think are more likely to fill in the slots. Also, I don't think SolemnJ would be acting as scummy to be scum. It doesn't change my read too much, but I felt like mentioning it.

Could you explain why voting for a lurker is scummy to you? Especially in the context of how nook did it.

Also, could you explain how other players acting scummy makes SolemnJ look not scummy?

Also, Vote: Mufasa

Why?

I felt like he was either trying to feel for what the easiest lynch was and vote for it or he was trying to give himself an excuse to move his vote off a scumbuddy. I also sort of hoped it would be some motivation for him to post.

I talked about why I thought Mufasa was scummy in post 282. Did you want me to expand on that or did you not see it?

[Sanjay]

Snow White: Could you explain what was the writing process behind post 312? You have some analysis but then at other points you just have statements summarizing what happened like "Dramonic introducing Sanjay to ISO.", "Confusion between Sanjay and SolemnJ" and "Meta of Snow White's AtE as town."

[Wickedestjr]

Will reply to [1: one thing] though in Wicked's post about me being newbscum in this game. (im not ftr but i expect no one to simply take my word on that). Ive played as full fledged scum once when i replaced /in the Scrubs mafia. I came in with scums being really rather inactive and being tied as a lover to one of them who was on V/LA. But participated as often as he could.

They claimed masons to prevent a lynch on my predecessor and then i led a lynch against our third scum. We submitted no NK due to keeping ourselves verified masons more or less in the towns eyes and speculated over a live doctor the next day. We then wrangled a lynch on the town cop who claimed, before we made a NK and won the game. This has been the only time i have been fully fledged scum and for a newbscum which i was and probably still am, i think i done pretty well.

1: Just one?

I'm sorry, this doesn't make much sense to me. Can you just summarize what your reason was for saying this;

Newbscum. Were i to pick two words to describe me. Calculating and Manipulative.

In response to my emoticon thing. Are you fudging serious!?!?!? haha. They're emoticons. You do or do not mind them MME? Which one? Surely you dont expect me to go back and trawl through my town games where i have used them too? *facepalm*

This wasn't serious. Right?

Unvote, in case I'm currently voting anyone.

*sighs*

Finally shows up at Post 69. He responds to Snow White's reasoning for voting Saber, and I think it's very well thought out. Random votes Sanjay, and mentions that the possible roles are interesting.

He does stay a bit too quiet for my liking.

The bolded portion is scummy. I don't know why she would point this out if she were town. Which is enough a reason to find it scummy itself, but that is not the reason I pointed it out. I think she was worried that we might find her scummy for trying to make her predecessor seetm townie, so she decided to make the bolded comment. This combined with my scum read on nook is giving me bad vibes from Starbuck so far.

Says someone who was also voting for him and didn't seem to have a problem with voting him.

Do you still find this wierd after reading the whole thread? Because, Snow White has already explained this.

You [Sanjay] then go on to praise Wicked for the question,

Where?

4. So you voted for Lowell because of what happened in another game, and this is supposed to do what for this game?

Stupid question.

You need to attack the argument not the person.

Why?

And then you go and vote Sanjay because quite a few of you have misunderstood what was originally said by Lowell.

I believe it was just me. Wasn't it?

Now that I've read farther, I see that you did misread it, and I can see how you would do so.

Then why did you point it out in the first place?

1: Serious strawman here. 2: How and when did he claim to be scum? 3: Last I knew, claiming to be scum in any role (town, mafia, independent, etc) is against the rules here at MS.

1: Yeah I know. Why are you doing that?

2: I have explained this. On his very first post he votes himself and says "let's skip the RVS". I thought this implied he was pretending his vote was serious. I also thought that this meant he was pretending to be scum and voting himself in order to skip the RVS. I also came to the conclusion that he was pretending this in order to get us out of the RVS because I don't see how he was intending to get out of the RVS if that wasn't what he was doing.

3: Really?

I don't think this question is a good one because Saber specifically stated that they have only played one game together.

So?

1: So explain to me how Saber's vote on Snow White was a random vote because I honestly don't see it. 2: She had been posting nothing but fluff and adding barely anything to the game at this point. 3: He did state a reason of "competing bandwagons are useful for town IMO", which is not random. I definitely think you are misrepresenting him. 4: I'm also concerned with the fact that you keep trying to push for a response from Saber about your vote when really you voted for him based on some pretty horrible reasons. 5: You keep stating over and over again that he placed a second random vote when he didn't.

1: I thought it was random because he didn't actually give a case at the time of the vote. So I just assumed the vote was random.

2: This wasn't one of the reasons he gave at the time of his vote. And also, I don't think she was the only player that was posting fluff. This was very early in the game.

3: See my response to 1.

4: I kept pushing for a response because he hadn't given one. I didn't realize my mistake until he did.

5: Alright. I've realized my mistake and I'm not doing it anymore. Not much more I think I can say.



Okay Starbuck is scum.

[Wickedestjr]

Currently the person I find most scummy is Snow White.

Vote: Snow White

Very convenient.

One thing that does bother me so far (and I haven't finished my analysis yet) is that it seems like Wicked and Snow White are trying their best to tiptoe around each other. It seems like a very fine line between distancing and buddying.

Examples?

Granted. Calling out something as IIoA, when it really isn't, is scummy. Yes i noted that you decided that based on a skim read, however you shouldn't have noted anything until you actually took the time to read it, instead of just skimming. when you read with haste, and make not of things that may not be accurate, scum tend to jump on those things.

This is a good point, apart from the fact that I disagree that it wasn't IIoAish.

Vote: SolemnJ
-Lurker, and anti-town posting when he actually posted.

He's about to get replaced I predict.

[1: That never phased you as a pressure vote], since I disagree that Snow's post is IIoA, 2: where as you think that it is?

1: Nope. I don't see what the purpose of it would be this late in the game.

2: A lot of it is.

I realized it after the fact, and fixed it, but my point on your not reading the rules is the fact that you had THE FIRST POST in the game and failed to see that.

I see no difference.

Look at the first line of each scum role PM. It names the recipient's role (1 scum), their godfather (2 scum) and their one other scumbuddy with role (3 scum). Plus there's a potential traitor, but on D1 they're obviously still Town.

Firstly, I think you might be right about the number of scum and you also might be right in saying that there is a godfather. But I don't think we know for sure that there is a traitor or not. If there was one, I think they would know they were. I'll look into it more but I gotta go.

[almightybob]

Yeah I've since realised that the "on D1 they're obviously still Town" part is wrong. If there is a traitor, they're scum-aligned from the start. I'm not sure in what way they're a traitor then, since at no point does their win condition change, but oh well.
They're basically another scum member, they just can't communicate with the rest of the scum team, and their scum-mates don't know who it is so they could potentially off one of their own. Which would be nice.

[Sanjay]

At Sanjay's 315. Okay.

UnFos

. I assumed Snow White had picked the right post. One question though: What is your definition of frustration?

What I meant by saying Mufasa was frustrated by BC is that it looked like Mufasa didn't like how BC was operating by calling for votes on himself and then not liking the results. I thought Mufasa was unhappy with the way BC was playing the game.

I thought it was townish because he wasn't backing down from BC's FoSes.

I think in retrospect frustration is probably the wrong way to describe it, because it kind of paints this picture of Mufasa seething at his keyboard at BC's ridiculousness, which is not what I thought. Probably "dislike" would be better.

I don't know what to make of Snow White's long apology for her mistake. Thoughts anyone?

Not knowing what to make of it was pretty much my reaction. (Sorry Snow White for kind of ignoring the post).

But there is some stuff here worth commenting on:

Oops. That may be a brain fart on my account. I was joting down notes as i went. So at first yes i probably did assume you meant post 6 until you cleared it later. I was thinking it was incredibly riddiculous scum slip if it was the one you were talking about. And i didnt correct my notes as i went on. i do hope you'll forgive me for that.

Ah. Lol. That is fair. You have your own train of thought and even though mine may not be on the same level i can respect it. Frankly it is speculation though as I think it is different however this time in regard to where scum fall on the wagon seeing as BC invited it upon himself. If anything i think my wagon atm deserves a seeing to but then again i'd say that as scum too. So its really up to the reader but i will fight tooth and nail if i have to, to stay alive.

No it made no sensefor you to be talking about post 6 in regards to Mufasa being frustrated i just thought you were being really really silly scum and was like "???" until i ead your later clarification. Which still leaves me a bit "???". Do you see how the interaction between Mufasa post 23 and DeathNote lessens the impact of Mufasa being frustrated?

I can see now you were talking about post 23. Just a brain fart on my account. I just seen what i had on paper and wrote it up without verifying what id wrote, i just wanted it up asap, but thank you for correcting me on that. That is my mistake and i will gladly admit it. I hope i stated this right because i seriously need to go to bed. If there are any other problems or clarification needed ill respond tomorrow.

Night!

On one hand:

Apology aside, I still think it was kind of scummy to misread me like that, because it seems like it could be motivated out of a desire to make people seem scummy instead of figuring out who is scummy. And I don't really like her explanation of how it happened. Is "really really silly scum" a scum archetype?

And I don't understand how if, from Snow White's perspective, it made no sense for me to be talking about post 6 and only a little sense for me to be talking about post 23, she assumed I was talking about post 6.

Why is it the first time I said I was talking about post 23 you called it backtracking and didn't believe me but this time I got a big apology?

On the other hand:

Town or scum, Snow White kind of goofed here. I think this kind of big apology is kind of how I expect town would act in this situation. I feel like scum would do more to minimize the mistake and I think if Snow White was actually trying to sneakily build up a case like this on me she would have apologized right away when called out on it, not debate the point.

Snow White, comment?

[Starbuck]

@Wicked, you do realize that I'm still doing my analysis right.

I start the post with the page I'm starting on and end it with the page I left off on.

[Wickedestjr]

@Wicked, you do realize that I'm still doing my analysis right.

I start the post with the page I'm starting on and end it with the page I left off on.

Oh!!! That makes sense. And it changes EVERYTHING.

[Wickedestjr]

There's 3 scum in this game.

Plus maybe a traitor and plus maybe an SK.

As for self voting, i've done it before, I thought I went over this with Zazie already, well, at least who i've learned it from. Mainly because I tend to think that the RVS stage drags out, and it could have potentially gone for several pages. I've seen a mini normal game last for 5 pages because no one was serious. However, in this game, I think my attempt at a self vote was a little premature, anyways.

How were you planning on making the RVS finish faster with that vote?

Quite a hypocritical post from Nook in Post 143.

So? Why are you pointing it out?

I love how he casually enters the game six pages in at Post 130, and then he votes Lowell who hasn't been around since the start of the game. Seriously dude, you haven't been around either, why don't you try scumhunting?

I think this point is incorrect.

It took you this long to realize this?

I didn't realize it until he explained.

Also, good job jumping on dramonic for complaining about pointless discussion, but not doing anything to be rid of it.

I'm not sure if this is a sarcastic attack of me or you actually thought it was good of me to FoS Dramonic. If it is a sarcastic attack of me, then you are wrong, because I am one of the few people that was actually trying to get out of the RVS, and I wasn't complaining about the discussion we had at the time.

[Wickedestjr]

I'll read the rest later. Don't have much time right now.

[Starbuck]

@Starbuck: Nothing about me?

Haven't gotten to any posts about you or by you yet.



@ Wicked - Because if I find flaws with my predecessor, I do like to point them out. But apparently, according to you, I can't do that? You seem to think so via the following two posts...

The bolded portion is scummy. I don't know why she would point this out if she were town. Which is enough a reason to find it scummy itself, but that is not the reason I pointed it out. I think she was worried that we might find her scummy for trying to make her predecessor seetm townie, so she decided to make the bolded comment. This combined with my scum read on nook is giving me bad vibes from Starbuck so far.

Quite a hypocritical post from Nook in Post 143.

So? Why are you pointing it out?

Do you still find this wierd after reading the whole thread?

Because, Snow White has already explained this.

Maybe I just haven't gotten to that yet?

You [Sanjay] then go on to praise Wicked for the question,

Where?

You wrote Sanjay in that post and this was directed at Snow White, so I have no idea what you are getting at here.

4. So you voted for Lowell because of what happened in another game, and this is supposed to do what for this game?

Stupid question.

Why is it? She explicitly stated that she voted Lowell because of the previous game they were in.

You need to attack the argument not the person.

Why?

Because otherwise, it's considered ad hominem. You shouldn't personally attack the person that you are scumhunting, you need to be attacking their behavior/their argument.

Now that I've read farther, I see that you did misread it, and I can see how you would do so.

Then why did you point it out in the first place?

Because you went on and on about it, and you were called out on it multiple times. It shouldn't take that many times to be called out on something to look up Lowell's two posts in ISO to see what people are talking about. It definitely feels like you were ignoring the situation here.

1: Serious strawman here. 2: How and when did he claim to be scum? 3: Last I knew, claiming to be scum in any role (town, mafia, independent, etc) is against the rules here at MS.

1: Yeah I know. Why are you doing that?

2: I have explained this. On his very first post he votes himself and says "let's skip the RVS". I thought this implied he was pretending his vote was serious. I also thought that this meant he was pretending to be scum and voting himself in order to skip the RVS. I also came to the conclusion that he was pretending this in order to get us out of the RVS because I don't see how he was intending to get out of the RVS if that wasn't what he was doing.

3: Really?

1. Yeah, you know what? And Why am I doing what?

2. You said he CLAIMED scum. He never once CLAIMED scum, and you just said so right here. You stated what you THOUGHT he IMPLIED, not what he actually DID.

3. The point of mafia is to hunt out the scum. If scum claims as scum or others claim as scum, they pretty will ruin the game for everyone else. I would figure that this is knowledge that would be known prior to ever playing a mafia game.

1: So explain to me how Saber's vote on Snow White was a random vote because I honestly don't see it. 2: She had been posting nothing but fluff and adding barely anything to the game at this point. 3: He did state a reason of "competing bandwagons are useful for town IMO", which is not random. I definitely think you are misrepresenting him. 4: I'm also concerned with the fact that you keep trying to push for a response from Saber about your vote when really you voted for him based on some pretty horrible reasons. 5: You keep stating over and over again that he placed a second random vote when he didn't.

1: I thought it was random because he didn't actually give a case at the time of the vote. So I just assumed the vote was random.

2: This wasn't one of the reasons he gave at the time of his vote. And also, I don't think she was the only player that was posting fluff. This was very early in the game.

3: See my response to 1.

4: I kept pushing for a response because he hadn't given one. I didn't realize my mistake until he did.

5: Alright. I've realized my mistake and I'm not doing it anymore. Not much more I think I can say.

Okay Starbuck is scum.

1. You assumed and were told multiple times that Saber's vote was not random, and you never went back to see this fact. Another instance of you ignoring what actually happened and twisting it for your own purposes.

2. She may have not been the only one posting fluff, but she was posting damn well most of it.

3. How can you say he didn't post it when he voted her? You may want to check out this link, and look I'll quote it for you too!

I have decided to:

unvote; vote: Snow White

because competing BWs are useful for town, IMO.

It may not be an altogether good reason, but it still is a reason which makes his vote NOT random.

4. What do you mean that you didn't realize your mistake until he did?

5. Got nothing for this one.

Currently the person I find most scummy is Snow White.

Vote: Snow White

Very convenient.

How so?

I have made a case on her.

One thing that does bother me so far (and I haven't finished my analysis yet) is that it seems like Wicked and Snow White are trying their best to tiptoe around each other. It seems like a very fine line between distancing and buddying.

Examples?

Noting this because I will provide this after I finish my analysis.

I love how he casually enters the game six pages in at Post 130, and then he votes Lowell who hasn't been around since the start of the game. Seriously dude, you haven't been around either, why don't you try scumhunting?

I think this point is incorrect.

How so? Read him in iso and click on the link next to his first post. If I am still incorrect on this point, then please point me to where I can be corrected.

Also, good job jumping on dramonic for complaining about pointless discussion, but not doing anything to be rid of it.

I'm not sure if this is a sarcastic attack of me or you actually thought it was good of me to FoS Dramonic. If it is a sarcastic attack of me, then you are wrong, because I am one of the few people that was actually trying to get out of the RVS, and I wasn't complaining about the discussion we had at the time.

This was a compliment. I'm glad that someone pointed this out when this happened.





Anyways, back to work, the rest of my analysis will be up tonight.

[Wickedestjr]

I'll admit that my question to My Milked Eek was borne more out of curiosity than scumhunting. The idea of emoticons as a tell is interesting to me and one I like to joke about.

So do you believe in the tell? What do you think of the analysis that MME has given?

1: Could you explain why voting for a lurker is scummy to you? 2: Especially in the context of how nook did it.

Because;

A.) - It is really easy to do. You don't even really have to make a case at all. I realize that nook actually gave reasons, but I didn't really like them. SolemnJ's post didn't seem scummy, but it did seem like something easy for scum to jump on.

B.) - It is a good way to appear town.

C.) - Voting a lurker doesn't put you in a bad position at all, because the lurker isn't going to defend themselves.

Also, could you explain how other players acting scummy makes SolemnJ look not scummy?

SolemnJ could be scum, but I don't see any good reason to believe so. There are about 5-6 players I could imagine being scum, so I would have trouble believing SolemnJ was. I hope that answers your question.

I felt like he was either trying to feel for what the easiest lynch was and vote for it or he was trying to give himself an excuse to move his vote off a scumbuddy. I also sort of hoped it would be some motivation for him to post.

So how confident are you that he is actually scum?

I talked about why I thought Mufasa was scummy in post 282. Did you want me to expand on that or did you not see it?

No. I think that is enough of an explanation.


BTW, any comments on my case on MrSuave or Santos? How 'bout my scum read on Starbuck?

[xRECKONERx]

I'm pretty sure Starbuck is townie. I played in a game with her as townie, and she's playing pretty much exactly the same this time around. I do, however, think that BC is scum. I can't discuss ongoing games, but I not only have meta-reasons to suspect him... but he's also only defending himself, not trying to scumhunt.

More BC votez plz.

[Max]

Deadline -8 Days

Vote Count

- 10!

6 Votes:
Snow White (My Milked Eek, saberwolf, AlmightyBob, Deuxieme Octopus, Mufasa, Starbuck)

5 Votes
Sposh (Sposh, MrSuave, StarBuck, dramonic, BloodConvenent)

4 Votes
BloodCovenent (Mufasa, Lowell, EtherealCookie, xRECKONERx)

2 Votes:
Mufasa (Sanjay, DeathNote)
Lowell (Santos, SnowWhite)

1 Vote:
MrSuave (Wickedestjr)

0 Votes:
Sanjay, My Milked Eek, DeathNote, dramonic, Wickedestjr, Mufasa, Santos, xRECKONERx, DuexiemeOctopus, EtherealCookie, AlmightyBob, saberwolf

18 Players, 10 to Lynch

[Max]

Sposh

is replacing SolemnJ

Faerie Lord

is replacing Lowell

[Max]

Prod Announcements

1. Mufasa
8. DeathNote
15. My Milked Eek
16. Deuxieme Octopus

Prod Count
Mufasa - 3 (Final Prod - After this straight replace)
BloodCovenent - 2
DeathNote - 1
Santos - 1
Sanjay - 1
Lowell - 1
Wickedestjr - 1
AlmightyBob - 1
My Milked Eek - 1
Deuxieme Octopus - 1

[xRECKONERx]

Wait, Sposh is here?

xD MeMe's gonna have a huuuge problem with that one.

[FaerieLord]

Reading and crap

[Max]

Wait, Sposh is here?

xD MeMe's gonna have a huuuge problem with that one.

I'm okay with it, he asked if it was okay, and I personally don't have a problem with it. As long as you don't discuss out of game I have nothing against it.

[dramonic]

What's this about Sposh?

[Max]

They share an apartment. They = xRECKONERx and sposh.

[My Milked Eek]

Unprod. I've been busy catching up on school work that I missed out on due to illness.

I should be up to date tomorrow

But from what I've been skimming:
- Starbuck is town
- Reck is town

All from metareads.

[Wickedestjr]

Apology aside, I still think it was kind of scummy to misread me like that, because it seems like it could be motivated out of a desire to make people seem scummy instead of figuring out who is scummy. And I don't really like her explanation of how it happened. Is "really really silly scum" a scum archetype?

What about when I made the mistake about Lowell? What makes this different?


BTW, it doesn't seem to me like we are really working together that much as a town. It seems like we've forgotten how close the deadline is. The deadline is in 8 days, and it doesn't seem like we are coming to an agreement on anything yet. Also, many people aren't posting enough. These are all just my observations though.

If we can't come to an agreement on anything by deadline, then I think Snow White would be the best lynch. It would be very informative regardless of what she flips, but I think she very well could be scum.

[DeathNote]

Here. No opinion. Mufasa has bad posts.

[Mufasa]

sorry guys been real busy with school, at this point I am going to stick to my guns and say that BC is scum.