Open 175 - Picking Simplicity (Game Over)

[Hyl]

Well, he has a concrete list of suspects, rather than an unhelpfully widespread suspicion table (as one would expect from his play-style). A townie in a game of 20 players on Day 1 (which is the time for creating foundations in your suspicions) would be more likely to adopt that playstyle than scum.

[SpyreX]

Toot toot

Uh, like 2 posts ago I stated exactly why I was voting for Keyblade.

I'm not arguing that you gave an explanation for a single read. That the list, generally, is missing those key points.

The vote on Keyblade is the least of my concerns. Hell, that could be a bus or a replacement-waiting vote or whateves. My concerns deal with other parts of it. Like thus:

I find Iguana's play pro-town because it helps catch scum, not because 'scum wouldn't behave that way'. They would.

Asking questions, probing players, encouraging discussion, generally scumhunting helps catch scum.

The first is in direct reference to the I may or may not be a PR business. Which then is apparently pushed into a general "pro-town" feel. Which isn't my issue, again. It is saying that the PR business is a super-pro town tool.

Which its not.

As for the pieces in the second: after I am or am not a PR show me examples of what you've stated above. Because I'm pretty sure I saw a "don't ask me or speculate on what I am" which is kind of the antithesis of "encouraging discussion".

---

The players I listed as town are active, sensible, scum-hunters, or 1-2 of the 3. That's generally what defines pro-town play so I didn't think an explanation was necessary. And I clearly stated the rationale for "neutral"--those players haven't given me much of a read from their posts. Therefore there is no rationale to list.

Which fall into which? You've created a double-blanket for "the town" in your read. So, yes, if those are your criteria for "pro-town" it still makes sense to associate your town reads with why they are town.

Uhm...ok? Players with both questionable and pro-town posts fall in MotR. Players with no strong indication in their posts whatsoever fall in Neutral. What's so odd about that?

Middle of the Road implies neutrality (or so I read) if that is your stance then sure. However, if they are both town and scum then there should be a lean and thus :bonk:

But, then, the scum (and allow me a segue into a yabba statement):

@SpyreX-346: I'm gonna side with Hyl on this one, I think there are certain aspects and logic to his scumlist that I think you're merely misunderstanding. One example, can dislike someone's vote even if it's on supposed scum because perhaps the vote was a half-assed scum-distancing vote, referencing the 12KB one.

Yes and no. See, your post has the piece that makes this different in the setup: the fact you illustrate the issue as a potential scum distancing vote. The list did not.

Now, a closed setup suure thats not as much of an issue but when the cards are layed out saying X is scum for voting Y who is scum doesn't click right without either the "this is an SK blending on a wagon" or "this vote is distancing from the inevitable lynch of his buddy"

And, throwing dramonic on there for a 1-liner when the neutrals are neutral? It gets the cackles raised in that chainsaw kind of way when dramonic was all over Iguana for the PR business to begin with.

[Nikanor]

The players I listed as town are active, sensible, scum-hunters, or 1-2 of the 3.

I'm active.
I'm scumhunting.
Why don't I fall under town players?

[Pomegranate]

V/LA this evening until Saturday night.

(Yes, I'm aware it's in my signature.)

[Toro]

Sorry for not getting my thoughts posted yet guys, I'm rereading through the whole thread real quick.

[WarWound]

I was going to say that Pom was scummy for being non-committal in her wording before I realised she was thirteen (non-committal wording is fairly common in younger players, since they often lack confidence).

No. When I was thirteen, I had an easy time being committal in my stances. And we don't even know if Pom is lying about her age. (She's a woman, after all. )

Scum don't generally want to say things that can be seen as stupid; I see town as more likely to point it out as they are usually focusing on details. The town are the ones who care about finding scum; scum would rather just coast.

Townies unusually focus on details sometimes, yes, but scum are more likely to

fabricate

details, or spew out as much as they can to lynch a target. In the case of Yabba I doubt, as scum, he made that comment with the intention of painting you scummy. Therefore his comment is more of a null-tell for me.

For those not following, we are referring to where Yabba called out Pom for her weird diction ("I'm not liking Nikanor").
---
My current suspicions: (Note: Neutral players either haven't given me any read or aren't townie enough to list them as Town; MotR are both townie and scummy)

Town:
-

Honcho
-Blastinus
-Yabba
-Iguana
-Flava

Neutral:
-

Skitzer
-SpyreX
-Scott
-Grimmy

Middle of the Road:
-

Pomegranate

; I would have put her in scum if it weren't for her vote on Nikanor. Granted, it wasn't wholly original since 1) Basically everyone pointed out Nikanor's buddying, and 2) I had pointed out Nik's screwy logic concerning his vote on Blastinus. So Pom is more leaning scum because of her odd excuse for lurking and her sweeping town reads.
-

Nikanor

; Skitzer said that your reason to unvote Blastinus goes against logical sense. Do you disagree, and why? And who are your top suspects since you've unvoted Blastinus?
-

Zwet

; Give some substance please.
-

Col

-

Toro

; Several posts, nothing substantial. Who are your top suspects and why?

Scum:
-

Foilist

; I didn't like the vote on Keyblade. Even though Iguana provided some reasoning, it seemed like an opportunistic jump from "He's not the only one lurking!" to "Vote: Keyblade, and his wagon is only getting bigger".
-

Dramonic

; The "buddying much?" in #331 is largely what landed him here. For one it's a bit of a stretch; additionally, it forms the basis for an ad hominem attack. Conveniently the person he accuses of buddying is Flave, a former suspect of his, so I wouldn't be surprised if he lumps them together as scum.
-

Keyblade

I-forgot-he-was-in-the-game-until-I-looked-at-the-player-list:
-

YankCane

where the hell am I?

[Hyl]

@Nikanor-352 Because, as I've said a hundred million times now, players under MotR are both pro-town and scummy. My iso #3, #6, and #9 illustrate your posts that I find questionable enough to keep you out of the Hyl's Townies Club.

Which fall into which? You've created a double-blanket for "the town" in your read. So, yes, if those are your criteria for "pro-town" it still makes sense to associate your town reads with why they are town.

Erm...sure. All of them are scum-hunting with acceptable though varying degrees of activity; Yabba, Blastinus, and Honcho are sensible; Iguana is active.

The first is in direct reference to the I may or may not be a PR business. Which then is apparently pushed into a general "pro-town" feel. Which isn't my issue, again. It is saying that the PR business is a super-pro town tool.

Which its not.

Okay, well there's a misunderstanding. I don't find Iguana's PR nonsense pro-town in any way; in fact, I called it stupid and anti-town in two posts. I also said that her trying to look townie is scummy... Did you just ignore everything that contradicted your argument in order to make a vote?

[quote='Spyre"]Because I'm pretty sure I saw a "don't ask me or speculate on what I am" which is kind of the antithesis of "encouraging discussion".[/quote]
...Okay, let me rephrase that to "encouraging

good

discussion". I wouldn't expect anyone to promote talk about their own role in these circumstances. As for examples, see every post from her ending in a question mark.

And, throwing dramonic on there for a 1-liner when the neutrals are neutral?

Your point? Unless you can show me something the neutrals have done that is scummier than Dramonic's 1-liner, leave my list be.

It gets the cackles raised in that chainsaw kind of way when dramonic was all over Iguana for the PR business to begin with.

?

saying X is scum for voting Y who is scum doesn't click right without either the "this is an SK blending on a wagon" or "this vote is distancing from the inevitable lynch of his buddy"

Or, simply, one of my reads is wrong and the other is right. I'm not saying that this is the case--really, I didn't yet consider all the possible scenarios behind Foilist's vote. The fact that matters is he made a scummy vote.

However, if they are both town and scum then there should be a lean and thus :bonk:

The "lean" goes Pom, Toro, Nikanor, Zwet (only because of his meta), Col, in order of scumminess.

[Hyl]

You're neutral.

[SpyreX]

Okay, well there's a misunderstanding. I don't find Iguana's PR nonsense pro-town in any way; in fact, I called it stupid and anti-town in two posts. I also said that her trying to look townie is scummy... Did you just ignore everything that contradicted your argument in order to make a vote?

Yea, I sure did. Or, wait. No:

There's an awful lot of defensiveness in Iguana's reply to the accusations against her, but I'm not reading scum behind it. She's setting herself up too much, especially by categorizing people by suspicions several pages back, for her to be trying to stay alive in this game. A Mafia member would be more subtle in setting up votes and suspicions, not absolutely blatant like this. Best I can figure is that she's just a very odd town role.

Blastinus, I couldn't disagree more with everything you just said (about Iguana; the observation on War is meh).

Not only do I not find her defensive (were you just referring to Dramonic's attacks?) but your conclusion about her active play is flimsy. One, it's like the most commonly used example of WIFOM in the book; two, not all mafia behave the same way, so concluding "scum=subtle" doesn't amount to much.

I find Iguana's play pro-town because it helps catch scum, not because 'scum wouldn't behave that way'. They would.

So, hold on.

Blast says he finds Iguana to be too defensive but not scummy because of it. You then say you disagree with what he has to say (apparently about defensiveness although one could easily assume "everything" means also his read on her not being scum for it). You then end this with saying you find the play to be pro town.

Then , here, you say the move is stupid and anti town and trying to look townie is scummy.

Yet, somehow, this is a town read in your list. Not "Players with both questionable and pro-town posts fall in MotR."

I flat out don't understand. You have blast AND iguana as town reads when in THIS post you say that you find Iguana scummy.

And, for the kicker, Iguana hasn't posted between these so what altered the fundament of the read. Although I'll give you:

Your point? Unless you can show me something the neutrals have done that is scummier than Dramonic's 1-liner, leave my list be.

The neutrals? Nah. However you gave yourself reasons for your town read not being town.

[Toro]

After reading through the entire thread I've found our lynch candidate for the day.

Vote: WarWound

Sure the whole October 14th joindate may throw us off a bit, but do not forget WW has said that he

has

played internet mafia before, except with players that apparently aren't very bright on how to play the game, so at least WW would know how to try and appear town if he were scum. He couldn't be that bad at the game if he's played before.

Second point of my argument, I 100% do not like how Iguana and WarWound have both become complete buddies in this game, and how Iguana clears WarWound, declaring him town.

There is no way for Iguana to know who is town and who is scum, unless he has scumbuddies.

And rolling along with this argument, I've noticed how Warwound immediately started to warm up to Iguana,

when Iguana helped him out with some tips on gameplay.

This was the catalyst for when WarWound warmed up to Iguana and became an avid supporter/admirer of his. The suspicious part about this was that Yabbaguy and Skitzer both gave tips/pointers/compliments to WarWound and WarWound

did not immediately warm up to them proclaiming they're town!

It's very interesting how Iguana gets WarWound's approval because he helped him, but yet Yabba and Skitz don't get any true appreciation from WW.

So I believe I've just found 2 scumteamers (Iguana, WarWound) and I've cleared both Yabbaguy and Skitzer, but that all depends if a WarWound or Iguana lynch goes through, I prefer that we got through with a WW lynch so we could get him out of the way and it'll be easier having to sift through his posts.

[zwetschenwasser]

Warwound = newbcard playing scum

[dramonic]

Dramonic

; The "buddying much?" in #331 is largely what landed him here. For one it's a bit of a stretch; additionally, it forms the basis for an ad hominem attack. Conveniently the person he accuses of buddying is Flave, a former suspect of his, so I wouldn't be surprised if he lumps them together as scum.

Then what do you call the interaction FF had with me in 330 regarding Iguana?

I never said I didn't think FF was scum, I'm chasing Iguana because in my opinion she's either scum or anti-town, while FF has an (albeit small) chance of being town with a playstyle that escapes me.

And Yes, if it can make you feel better, I am not over saying they have good chances of being scum together.

[Toro]

Warwound = newbcard playing scum

Tell me zwet, does WarWound really come off to you as

playing

the newbcard? I mean,

really?

[Iguana]

right now, its is slightly more suspicious to me than it would have been if this was later in the game.

Why? I would of thought the exact opposite about when it sets off flags.

Foil is scum for voting Keyblade. (again another props to Iguana here) however, Keyblade, the person Hyl is currently voting, has no rationale given.

Did I do good?

Anyways. My take on the whole thing regarding this from what I see. The wagon for 12kb started with a push from me and a few others, even though I was the only one to really elaborate on the reasoning for really wanting a lynch I felt. There was quoting and agreement, but that was really it.

Now, later came the "lolz lurker" votes, of which foil was a part of. These are called "crap reasoning" votes, since he was getting replaced, a sitewide activity check supported this. Now, I dont think this type of a vote is a bussing vote. This game in particular seems to have a whole lot of mob mentality behind it, take for example the 12kb push. No one really is doing anything about it, which is concerning me a bit, but, its snowballing.

That is to say that this game will likely pick a few early wagons today, and they will never go away given the ammount of sheepish people we have as compared to

iguanas

wolves. Therefore, a continuation of the 12kb wagon in absence of any other wagon, is an extreme threat to scum if 12kb is scum. Furthering the wagon on bad reasoning is the very last thing a 12kb partner would be wanting to do, since it is sealing his doom.

This brings me to the ultimate conclusion that 12kb and foil are not going to be scum together. It makes no sense for the sacrafice of 12kb by foil at this point unless basically the entire scum team is on that wagon already, which I would really doubt.

This also means that the list from hyl is flawed to an extreme regarding the placement of these two players, unless he intents to insinuate that one of them HAS to be scum. Thats about the biggest tell from him I see though.

There is no way for Iguana to know who is town and who is scum, unless he has scumbuddies...

I've cleared both Yabbaguy and Skitzer

lol please try again

@mod

- Is the SK and mafia kills distinctive?

[Toro]

The game did not start at night Iguana so you couldnt've investigated him, and there are no masons, and if you were claiming VT earlier then I doubt that you know who WarWound really is, or do you...scum?

And thank you for switching my words around Iguana, I said I've only cleared Yabbaguy and Skitzer

IF

WarWound comes up Scum if we lynch him.

[Iguana]

The game did not start at night Iguana so you couldnt've investigated him, and there are no masons, and if you were claiming VT earlier then I doubt that you know who WarWound really is, or do you...scum?

There obviously are such things as scum reads, given that you are voting. Are you doubting the validity of the town read? I actually think they are more powerful then scum reads, since scum suddenly have to panic and choose to kill concensus town or PR hunt. I have a town read, nothing really has happened to cause me to drop that town read, so I am going to call him town.

And thank you for switching my words around Iguana, I said I've only cleared Yabbaguy and Skitzer

IF

WarWound comes up Scum if we lynch him.

Well you are stating the fact on a pretty bad reasoning so I figured you were just flat out calling them town. You are saying that they are town because someone you think is scum is far less likely to call town players town. I just dont get that logic, and see the opposite just as often if not more.

[Iguana]

Lets try a hard question too, why WW over me?

[WarWound]

After reading through the entire thread I've found our lynch candidate for the day.

Vote: WarWound

Sure the whole October 14th joindate may throw us off a bit, but do not forget WW has said that he

has

played internet mafia before, except with players that apparently aren't very bright on how to play the game, so at least WW would know how to try and appear town if he were scum. He couldn't be that bad at the game if he's played before.

Second point of my argument, I 100% do not like how Iguana and WarWound have both become complete buddies in this game, and how Iguana clears WarWound, declaring him town.

There is no way for Iguana to know who is town and who is scum, unless he has scumbuddies.

And rolling along with this argument, I've noticed how Warwound immediately started to warm up to Iguana,

when Iguana helped him out with some tips on gameplay.

This was the catalyst for when WarWound warmed up to Iguana and became an avid supporter/admirer of his. The suspicious part about this was that Yabbaguy and Skitzer both gave tips/pointers/compliments to WarWound and WarWound

did not immediately warm up to them proclaiming they're town!

It's very interesting how Iguana gets WarWound's approval because he helped him, but yet Yabba and Skitz don't get any true appreciation from WW.

So I believe I've just found 2 scumteamers (Iguana, WarWound) and I've cleared both Yabbaguy and Skitzer, but that all depends if a WarWound or Iguana lynch goes through, I prefer that we got through with a WW lynch so we could get him out of the way and it'll be easier having to sift through his posts.

yes it is true i didnt warm up to skitzer and who else got a townie read on me, but i did appreciate it

and when i said ive played mafia before, the mafia i pla yis much different, allow me to explain

I played mafia and still do on WARCRAFT 3, the max is 12 players, games take 10 minutes now days and in order to get someone killed is to

A. HE IS (insert, mafia, jew e.t.c) KILL HIM, thoguh usually u do for this
B.Some other dumbass way

so compared to this the mafia i played is.. FUCKTARDED, its for fun and its comical, really comical lol

i dont kno how to scum hunt, i dont see the things you people see in posts and so are able to come up these explanations as to y he or she is scummy

so Warcraft 3 mafia= full of retards, no extreme intellect needed
Mafiascum Mafia games= intellegience needed, see througgh peopels posts and other crud

[Head_Honcho]

Hey guys, I've been falling behind due to midterms. Got paperz to do this weekend but I should be in full swing again come Mondayish.

[Nikanor]

Frack, even WW is making walls now.
I haven't the energy to go through another game full o' walls right now. I'll post later.

[Nikanor]

I'm not making a list of who I find scummy/towny. It would be mostly bullshit, you see. However, I will say that Toro is probtown, and that WW needs to realise that using the word 'retard' makes him sound juvenile, and while it might earn him friends with the twelve year olds who play WC3, it will only serve to get him insulted on this site. Thanks.

[WarWound]

i dont see the word retarded on my post above

[Flava Flave]

ZazieR has offered to replace in if someone would like to cross replace for him. I would do it myself, but I am not currently eligible to replace into any of the games requested. Let me know if you'd be willing to cross replace.

Replace into what? I'll probably be willing to do it.

Scum want mislynches. Wifom confuses town, or in this case convinces some/many players that he is town. Why wouldn't scum want that? I see town as less likely to use Wifom because it confuses the town. Bear in mind that I didn't say that town

don't

use Wifom, just are less likely IMO.

How does confusing people about his role cause a mislynch? And if you agree that town do occasionally use WIFOM, why are you arguing that Iguana is scum for using WIFOM?

You don't even know how many times I've been tempted to change my vote, but with Keyblade lurking, he hasn't been around to do anything scummy. I'm not going to consider him less likely to be scum just because he's lurking.

@Flave-330:

So you don't like my playstyle. k.

I didn't say I *didn't like you*, I said that I think you're *scummy* for this. The difference has been established.

Ok, let me rephrase. "So you think my playstyle is scummy. k"

V/LA this evening until Saturday night.

(Yes, I'm aware it's in my signature.)

Small detail to look at, but why did this especially have to be pointed out

this

weekend if you are ALWAYS V/LA during this part of the week.

Second point of my argument, I 100% do not like how Iguana and WarWound have both become complete buddies in this game, and how Iguana clears WarWound, declaring him town.

There is no way for Iguana to know who is town and who is scum, unless he has scumbuddies.

And rolling along with this argument, I've noticed how Warwound immediately started to warm up to Iguana,

when Iguana helped him out with some tips on gameplay.

This was the catalyst for when WarWound warmed up to Iguana and became an avid supporter/admirer of his. The suspicious part about this was that Yabbaguy and Skitzer both gave tips/pointers/compliments to WarWound and WarWound

did not immediately warm up to them proclaiming they're town!

It's very interesting how Iguana gets WarWound's approval because he helped him, but yet Yabba and Skitz don't get any true appreciation from WW.

Why'd you vote War and not Iguana?

Lets try a hard question too, why WW over me?

Damn you stealing my question. Oh well, I still want it answered.

[Nikanor]

so Warcraft 3 mafia= full of retards, no extreme intellect needed

There you go.

[WarWound]

Ok nikanor you got me :/