Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[ZazieR]

Agreeing with Emptyger here.

Move Qf5

Qf5 is a better move than Rg6

[Abstract Actuary]

Rg6 is definitely not the best move. As someone else said Re5 is a much better version of Rg6. In fact that is my favorite move with Qf5 and Qf3 as close seconds. I see us playing one of those two moves next.

Move: Rg6

since I'm the only one with that move, it shouldn't stifle discussion (by hammering a move before we have a good chance to discuss things here).

[ZazieR]

Did you bold the right move?

[Abstract Actuary]

D'oh.

Unmove Rg6, Move Re5

[Indigo Heron]

AA just hammered...but the discussion ought to continue. Since Rg6 is confirmed, anyway, Zazie, can you reveal your plan had we gone with Qf5?

[MafiaSSK]

Move Count

Rg6 (2)- Indigo Heron, RayFrost
Qf5 (2)-Emptyger,Zazier
Re5 (1)- Abstract Actuary

[Goatrevolt]

Nothing has been hammered yet, Indigo. I'm leaving now, but I'll check out Re5 later tonight.

[veerus]

move Qf6

with the threat of Re8.

[ZazieR]

AA just hammered...but the discussion ought to continue. Since Rg6 is confirmed, anyway, Zazie, can you reveal your plan had we gone with Qf5?

First of all, Goat had FoSed.
Secondly, you need 5 votes for a move.

I'll only elaborate if it's needed to make this move happen.

[ZazieR]

move Qf6

with the threat of Re8.

You mean Qf5, right?

[EmpTyger]

I hate to help Black by suggesting moves, but it’s clear that White needs the help more.

If 30. Rg6, then black can choose from any number of responses to that move or protect the bishop.
30…Bd8
30…h6
30…Rg7
30…Qd8

Even if 30. Re5, black can easily protect the bishop and d pawn.
30…Qg8
30…Qd8

I don’t want to go into which of these are better or worse. But I maintain that attacking the bishop only wastes a move, and am waiting to hear otherwise.
Whereas Qf8 forces a queen trade, which heightens our material advantage.

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IH:
Even if we coordinate our 3 attackers, (Q + R + R), Black has 3 defenders (K + Q + R). The only hope of a mating threat is for White to make suboptimal moves and hope that Black colossally blunders. Which (a) is poor strategy and (b) after the move 28 disaster I think *White* is more likely to misplay than Black.

[veerus]

move Qf6

with the threat of Re8.

You mean Qf5, right?

Err sorry, I meant Qg6.

unmove;move: Qg6

[EmpTyger]

Hm. I hadn't looked at that.

Unmove: Qf5

while reconsidering.

[Indigo Heron]

Naturally, if White moves Rg6, threatening the bishop, Black naturally moves Bd8, which moves it out of harm's way, but more importantly, removes the threat of an attack on the king.

[ZazieR]

move Qf6

with the threat of Re8.

You mean Qf5, right?

Err sorry, I meant Qg6.

unmove;move: Qg6

Qg6 is worse than Qf5. Black has one move in response to Qg6 that will block future attacks that we will have present if we play Qf5.

[ZazieR]

Naturally, if White moves Rg6, threatening the bishop, Black naturally moves Bd8, which moves it out of harm's way, but more importantly, removes the threat of an attack on the king.

But what if black doesn't play Bd8?

[Indigo Heron]

You think they will move Qe7 in response to Rg6? White simply moves Kd1, moving it out of harm's way.

[Abstract Actuary]

I still think Re5 is a strong move that leads to us winning a pawn*. So I went to refute the "queen trade" line and I saw some things I didn't see the first time. I think it is our best move. This assumes that we feel that a queen trade is stronger than winning a pawn at this juncture. And I think it is. Partially because I think we will be able to win the pawn after the trade anyway.

I'll probably switch to Qf5 soon, but I know it already has some votes and wouldn't mind seeing some more discussion.

Also, IH, black wouldn't play Bd8.


*30. Re5 Qd8/Qg8
31. Qf3 Rd7
32. Rh8
We win at least a pawn, block their passed pawn, gain our own passed pawn, connect our rooks.

[Abstract Actuary]

EBWOP: That last move should be Rh5.

[ZazieR]

You think they will move Qe7 in response to Rg6? White simply moves Kd1, moving it out of harm's way.

You don't play Kd1 in response to Qe7.
And you should know by now that I'm not planning to show black the move I see as best.

[ZazieR]

AA

, didn't you say something like this as well?

We should keep all of our threats close to the vest if we can.

[EmpTyger]

IH/RayF:
That's 3 moves that are superior to Rg6: {Re5, Qf5, Qg6}. Why are you still voting Rg6?

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Zazie:
I'm not seeing a problem with Qg6. Does your counter cause White to lose material or let Black escape without trading? If so, say it- we have 2 other decent options so we can abandon this line if it's bad. If we win at least a pawn even with your counter, it probably is better to save it quiet.

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AA:
Any reason why you keep ignoring the move currently under discussion? First you choose Re5 > Rg6, ignoring Qf5. Now you choose Qf5 > Re5 (while leaving your vote on Re5!), ignoring Qg6.

[ZazieR]

Zazie:
I'm not seeing a problem with Qg6. Does your counter cause White to lose material or let Black escape without trading? If so, say it- we have 2 other decent options so we can abandon this line if it's bad. If we win at least a pawn even with your counter, it probably is better to save it quiet.

No, the trade will very likely happen even with the move I'd do if I were black. However, that move has a high chance to lead the game to a pawn endgame or a Rook, Bisshop, pawn endgame. The first could lead to our loss depending on how we play it, while the latter gives us a better chance at winning.
But if we play Qf5, said move for black doesn't exist. Meaning we can still continue our attack.
Ask yourself this when you look at the board we currently have:
Can black do something else than trading, without losing a piece right after we move our queen?

One move of said queen moves we're discussing will have as answer 'no', while the other has 'yes' as an answer.

[ZazieR]

It's so hard to be vague >.<

[Abstract Actuary]

AA

, didn't you say something like this as well?

We should keep all of our threats close to the vest if we can.

True. Eh, I feel that the line I offered was not giving anything away. Neither side is playing any dynamic move. All are pretty forced and the result is only a won pawn.

AA:
Any reason why you keep ignoring the move currently under discussion? First you choose Re5 > Rg6, ignoring Qf5. Now you choose Qf5 > Re5 (while leaving your vote on Re5!), ignoring Qg6.

Hmmm. At the time I made my first move, Rg6 had the most support. I directly commented on my dislike for that move and also mentioned Qf5 and Qf3 as alternatives along with my suggestion Re5.

As of now, honsetly, I thought Qg6 was a typo. I thought the person wrote Qf6 and I thought they meant Qf5. Anyhow, I hadn't considered that move, but I am looking at it now and I see a very powerful move for black. Unless there is a strong refutation to the move I'm thinking of it is far inferior to Re5 or Qf5.