Newbie 843 (Game Over)

[tubby216]

and as promised a list of games i was in and my roles, these are the ones i can easily find, (*i really need to find someone to help me do a wiki*)


newbie 795= townie
newbie 799= townie
newbie 746= townie
newbie 763= scum role blocker
newbie 770= mafia goon
newbie 773= townie
newbie 743= townie

[EtherealCookie]

the only reasons why bjl and cookie are sure that there is a doctor is either 1. they are the doctor, or 2. they are the scum whose kill is blocked by the doctor. as there is at most one doctor in a newbie game, so 1 is wrong. point out the third option if you think it is a false dilemma.

Wow.
Please, read my posts.
Then point out where I said I am sure there is a doctor. I said why is it suspicious to assume there is a doctor. You are twisting my words a lot.
Also, your argument is terribly flawed.
As for 2, uhm, why the hell would we want to talk about the doctor if we are scum who got blocked by doctor's protection?
If you actually believe this is a scumslip, that's pretty sad. But you don't. You're just trying to get me lynched, given you're scum.

And where's Reason 3, being able to reason logically? No crap people would think the doctor was successful.

your questions back have already been explained

can we lynch cookie now please that'd be great

Can you please try to make sense? Re-read before you hit submit.

[Kyiv]

no not an appeal to fear

but i was trying to say is look a little closer at may posts, what they say, the words used the timing. Because i feel you are focusing on an easy target, wich by the way is a scum tell.

You claim you are an easier target than Ojanen and Cookie, regardless of the fact that they have more votes, and are under far more suspicion? And you seem to be implying that your previous posts all have some sort of subliminal meaning behind them, yet you refuse to help people find that meaning. I asked for you to elaborate, not repeat yourself. With the way you're acting, I have to think you are withholding information... and your attitude has been nothing but anti-town so far. And let me remind you how easy it would be to lynch Bjl/Ojanen right now:

Between BJL and Cookie, I still find cookie to be a stronger lynch.

Under threat of deadline, I may be willing to switch though.

We are just under a week for that deadline.

[Kyiv]

Ah fail... Tubby wrote that quote, not me.

[Soyasushi]

I can see why the strong suspicion on Tubby now, but I can be quite sure that he's not scum. His behaviour and his tunneling just certainly isn't all there. Sure, tunneling isn't very good for the town, but it is not a scummy action. If he's scum, and he's tunneling on a town Cookie, suspicion will immediately fall on him when Cookie flips town. ScumTubby won't want to risk that. Also, it is too huge a form of distancing and too risky for scum if it turns out to be ScumTubby trying to bus ScumCookie. It's true that his yesterday votehopping was suspicious, but I still don't think that scum, unless extremely stupid, will happily hammer random people like this. He probably isn't taking this game seriously as a townie, seeing as how many townie games he have accomplished. He probably just isn't interested in this game and thus is acting uncautious.

Mod: Did you note my V/LA?

Yes.

[tubby216]

no not an appeal to fear

but i was trying to say is look a little closer at may posts, what they say, the words used the timing. Because i feel you are focusing on an easy target, wich by the way is a scum tell.

You claim you are an easier target than Ojanen and Cookie, regardless of the fact that they have more votes, and are under far more suspicion? And you seem to be implying that your previous posts all have some sort of subliminal meaning behind them, yet you refuse to help people find that meaning. I asked for you to elaborate, not repeat yourself. With the way you're acting, I have to think you are withholding information... and your attitude has been nothing but anti-town so far. And let me remind you how easy it would be to lynch Bjl/Ojanen right now:

Between BJL and Cookie, I still find cookie to be a stronger lynch.

Under threat of deadline, I may be willing to switch though.

We are just under a week for that deadline.

if you can't see it i am not drawing you a map. perhaps if i survive today you will see tomorrow.

[Kyiv]

Then I can't take your word; you're playing a very poor townie right now. You are constantly putting your explanations off for the next day, refusing to help townies see your way, and you have

still

done nothing to defend yourself. With that said:

lol... what am I at? L-1? man... I've been sick since thursday and haven't been near a computer. I'm not going to defend myself other than say I'm a plain ol' townie. I don't have time for more right now. good luck.

Ojanen, can you defend Bjl's reasonings for flaking after being put at L-1, his lack of defense, and his role claim?

as for the others, soyasushi is the most townish. zach is also pro-town. meji and crazypianist need to talk more. tubby is anti-town but that's tubby.

a LoS is a bit anti-town imo, it provides target for scum to mislynch and kill.

Manho, can you explain this blatant contradiction?

[Soyasushi]

Then I can't take your word; you're playing a very poor townie right now. You are constantly putting your explanations off for the next day, refusing to help townies see your way, and you have still done nothing to defend yourself. With that said:

Then if you think he's townie, why attack him so? A poorly played townie is still a townie. We can't lynch someone for being a VI.

[Kyiv]

First, happy birthday!

Second, he's hardly going to be lynched, at least not today. I don't see any concern.

Third, I'm insinuating that he's playing a bad townie. I never ruled out he could be scum. I've said what I thought of him in my previous posts, but I still don't have a committing vote on either side just yet. For now though I've given up on trying to get anything out of him. I want Ojanen and Manho to answer their respective questions.

[hohum]

Official Vote Count:

Ojanen(3): Meji Fan, Soyasushi, manho

EtherealCookie(2): tubby216, Zachrulez
tubby216(1): EtherealCookie

Not Voting(1): Ojanen, Kyiv

With 8 Alive it takes 5 to lynch

[Ojanen]

I'll start off by replying to manho.

my first reaction after seeing no one died is really that there is a doctor and the protect success. but after half a minute or so, i think of the situation where the scum did not kill at all. only mafia is sure of whether mafia attempt the kill or not.

also, "stating the existance of the doctor after the doctor successfully protected someone" is the same as "congratulating the doctor".

the whole thing why "congratulating the doctor" is fishing

is that, bjl and cookie seems sure that or presuading the doctor to believe that the doctor has successfully protected someone the mafia targeted, so the doctor can clear that person. then the doctor will be tempted to claim as if a cop is tempted to claim day 2.

the only reasons why bjl and cookie are sure that there is a doctor is either 1. they are the doctor, or 2. they are the scum whose kill is blocked by the doctor. as there is at most one doctor in a newbie game, so 1 is wrong. point out the third option if you think it is a false dilemma.

1) To the underlined part: congratulating the doctor does not equal fishing.
You yourself don't think so. The fishing is supposed to be another element, even in your thoughts.
Proof:

congratulating the doctor is a small scum tell, and i still with it ... bjl congratulating the doctor while fishing the power role makes a big scum tell.

2) Why it is natural a townie to assume that there is a doc when the time limit for submitting the night choices has not been crossed and there is no nightkill on N1:
Think about it. There are 2 scum, who have no idea at this point whether there is a doc or not in this setup; regardless of whether they have a roleblocker or not, it's 50/50 chance.
If they choose to lose their nightkill, and there is a real doctor, the doctor will gain a chance to semi-confirm himself if he's in the game later. PLUS there is the person the doc actually protected who will be also semi-confirmed by the lack of kill, and scum has no control over who this is. N1 the doc chooses from 7 players - 5 town, 2 scum if D1 lynch was town - the semi-confirmed person will more likely be town. Of course it just could be scum, but that's an extremely shaky and risky gambit to make just for that reason.
There could also be a cop. If this is a setup where scum has a roleblocker, I'd say they were pretty insane to choose to no-kill, because in the case of a real doc+cop the cop-confirmed and plus didn't die -"confirmed" could later very possibly lead to auto-lose. Messy and really risky gambit for no real reason.
If it's goon+goon it's still risky, gives up the benefit of a nightkill and you would easily end up with 2 semi-confirmed players late in the game, and those are really inconvenient for scum.

These kind of gambits are more plausible when scum has more knowledge of what is in the setup, through a flip of a powerrole or so. Here, I'd say wild things are possible, but very unlikely.

And just to make sure, no, the likely doc here should not claim today.
But all of this talk of my slot or Cookie attempting to persuade them to claim, it's not true. My previous incarnation or him never implied they should come out. Just said it's likely there's a doc and got hell for it.

Also, by going your own arguments of fishing, isn't it much worse to be shouting "he must be scum or doctor!" as you are doing in Cookie's case?

i admit to be a bit opportunitive, but it doesn't make you look pro-town. it is an ad hominem argument. so you should prove you are pro-town first before attacking others.

1. You admit to have been opportunistic.
Then tell me, what reason does a pro-town player possibly have to be opportunistic? Scum wants to just lynch someone and survive. To town the tides are much less relevant. Town wants to hunt and lynch scum, regardless of who is currently under pressure.
Opportunism is a heavy scumtell.
2. Saying that your behaviour has been opportunistic is in no way an ad hominem attack. A short hand for someone who behaves opportunistically is an opportunist. We are supposed to be analyzing each others' behaviour.
3. No one can just "prove" they are pro-town.
I am attacking the arguments against my slot that I feel are weak and I'm scumhunting. That is exactly what I should be doing right now. Either people hopefully will see the arguments don't hold water and that there are stronger arguments against others and maybe we will lynch scum instead. Or they will not listen to me, choose to lynch me anyway and then I will have generated a bunch of guaranteed pro-town perspective and points for analysis for tomorrow's lylo.

[Ojanen]

lol... what am I at? L-1? man... I've been sick since thursday and haven't been near a computer. I'm not going to defend myself other than say I'm a plain ol' townie. I don't have time for more right now. good luck.

Ojanen, can you defend Bjl's reasonings for flaking after being put at L-1, his lack of defense, and his role claim?

Not really, he didn't do himself much favors. He's a raw newbie.
I can just suggest you take a look at his profile. 13 posts. One previous game where he was town and flaked after 3 posts, so the flaking part seems chronic.

Comment to EtherealCookie: I think you are town but communicate somewhat unpleasantly. Please just attack arguments instead of also calling people stupid.
(bracing for accusations of coaching...)

[Ojanen]

Also, currently I'm leaning

vote: manho

I'd like everyone to comment on my case on manho.
I'd also like Zach to elaborate why he said earlier he had a townread on manho.

[Zachrulez]

Also, currently I'm leaning

vote: manho

I'd like everyone to comment on my case on manho.
I'd also like Zach to elaborate why he said earlier he had a townread on manho.

When did I say I had a town read on manho?

[Ojanen]

Oh, sorry, memory was vague. You said

I don't really have much of a problem with Tubby or Manho at this point.

on a list earlier D2 but didn't explicitly say townish.
Could you comment on my case?

[manho]

as for the others, soyasushi is the most townish. zach is also pro-town. meji and crazypianist need to talk more. tubby is anti-town but that's tubby.

a LoS is a bit anti-town imo, it provides target for scum to mislynch and kill.

Manho, can you explain this blatant contradiction?

that's not a LoS, and not a list that provide target for mislynch or kill. LoS provides mislynch as it said who is the scummiest, but the list from me didn't contain bjl and cookie, who is the scummiest and the one that i don't believe is a mislynch. the list also didn't give out nk options. it is likely that we have a doctor, and assuming we have a doctor, scum should choose whether killing the most pro-town one and risk that the kill is protected, or killing the other and lower the risk. so, the scum can't get benefit from the list, but town does.

I'll start off by replying to manho.
1) To the underlined part: congratulating the doctor does not equal fishing.
You yourself don't think so. The fishing is supposed to be another element, even in your thoughts.
Proof:

congratulating the doctor is a small scum tell, and i still with it ... bjl congratulating the doctor while fishing the power role makes a big scum tell.

i'm not saying the tell "congratulating the doctor" itself leads to the tell "role fishing", and my words "congratulating the doctor is a small scum tell" is talking about the tell itself. however, when we add in other fact such as bjl is persuading others to believe there is really a doctor, our "congratulaing the doctor" case is fishing.

2) Why it is natural a townie to assume that there is a doc when

the time limit for submitting the night choices has not been crossed and there is no nightkill on N1

:

you really noticed that "the time limit for submitting the night choices has not been crossed and there is no nightkill on N1"? why would a townie be aware of the night deadline? and you know bjl noticed it?

Think about it. There are 2 scum, who have no idea at this point whether there is a doc or not in this setup; regardless of whether they have a roleblocker or not, it's 50/50 chance.
If they choose to lose their nightkill, and there is a real doctor, the doctor will gain a chance to semi-confirm himself if he's in the game later. PLUS there is the person the doc actually protected who will be also semi-confirmed by the lack of kill, and scum has no control over who this is. N1 the doc chooses from 7 players - 5 town, 2 scum if D1 lynch was town - the semi-confirmed person will more likely be town. Of course it just could be scum, but that's an extremely shaky and risky gambit to make just for that reason.
There could also be a cop. If this is a setup where scum has a roleblocker, I'd say they were pretty insane to choose to no-kill, because in the case of a real doc+cop the cop-confirmed and plus didn't die -"confirmed" could later very possibly lead to auto-lose. Messy and really risky gambit for no real reason.
If it's goon+goon it's still risky, gives up the benefit of a nightkill and you would easily end up with 2 semi-confirmed players late in the game, and those are really inconvenient for scum.

These kind of gambits are more plausible when scum has more knowledge of what is in the setup, through a flip of a powerrole or so. Here, I'd say wild things are possible, but very unlikely.

but we have mafia no-kill in day 1 for many games, and they are all stupid? and the semi-confirmed things is wrong as scum can be the one that was protected and be the semi-confirmed one. and you are dismissing all the case where scum counter-claim cop or doctor. so, mafia no-killing in day 1 is a common and not bad tactic, it depends on the situation of each game.

And just to make sure, no, the likely doc here should not claim today.
But all of this talk of my slot or Cookie attempting to persuade them to claim, it's not true. My previous incarnation or him never implied they should come out. Just said it's likely there's a doc and got hell for it.

it is a newbie game, and you shouldn't assume all doctor knows not claiming is the best tactic.

Also, by going your own arguments of fishing, isn't it much worse to be shouting "he must be scum or doctor!" as you are doing in Cookie's case?

yes, i'm concluding that he should be the doctor or scum. who else can be sure that there is a doctor? maybe the mod do.

i admit to be a bit opportunitive, but it doesn't make you look pro-town. it is an ad hominem argument. so you should prove you are pro-town first before attacking others.

1. You admit to have been opportunistic.
Then tell me, what reason does a pro-town player possibly have to be opportunistic? Scum wants to just lynch someone and survive. To town the tides are much less relevant. Town wants to hunt and lynch scum, regardless of who is currently under pressure.
Opportunism is a heavy scumtell.

being busy is a reason. as i was behind the game for many times, i need to rely on other's discussion to get back in the game. so, my best way to do so is the look for who is being accused and then look at his ISO to see if he is really scummy for me, and i usually have my own reason to vote. that is scum-hunting.

2. Saying that your behaviour has been opportunistic is in no way an ad hominem attack. A short hand for someone who behaves opportunistically is an opportunist. We are supposed to be analyzing each others' behaviour.

i think i forgot to state that the ad hominem attack is refer to the attack on my accusation. you should be defending yourself now as deadline is near and you are the leading one for a lynch, so your attack on me seems to be an ad hominem attack on my accusation on you. in other words, me being "opportunistic" does not make my case on you worse.
wait, you are right, and i forgot that you need to push for someone else's lynch to stay alive. so, your attack may not be ad hominem, and you should be defending yourself and attacking someone at the same time.

3. No one can just "prove" they are pro-town.
I am attacking the arguments against my slot that I feel are weak and I'm scumhunting. That is exactly what I should be doing right now. Either people hopefully will see the arguments don't hold water and that there are stronger arguments against others and maybe we will lynch scum instead. Or they will not listen to me, choose to lynch me anyway and then I will have generated a bunch of guaranteed pro-town perspective and points for analysis for tomorrow's lylo.

and that's what i mean by "prove"

[manho]

@others, while you are examining ojanen's case on me, please be aware that i have a case on ojanen/bjl/yernab.

@mod: when is the deadline?

[manho]

sorry mod, i've found the deadline. it's 4/11, which is next wednesday.

[Ojanen]

as for the others, soyasushi is the most townish. zach is also pro-town. meji and crazypianist need to talk more. tubby is anti-town but that's tubby.

a LoS is a bit anti-town imo, it provides target for scum to mislynch and kill.

Manho, can you explain this blatant contradiction?

that's not a LoS, and not a list that provide target for mislynch or kill. LoS provides mislynch as it said who is the scummiest, but the list from me didn't contain bjl and cookie, who is the scummiest and the one that i don't believe is a mislynch. the list also didn't give out nk options. it is likely that we have a doctor, and assuming we have a doctor, scum should choose whether killing the most pro-town one and risk that the kill is protected, or killing the other and lower the risk. so, the scum can't get benefit from the list, but town does.

Sorry to interfere but that defence is
a) entirely semantic, you had been attacking my slot and Cookie in previous posts so it was obvious who were the most suspicious
b) ridiculously scummy:
wait, now you say you were assuming that it's really likely that we have a doctor? I thought that's why you attitude to me is diescumdie!

---

i'm not saying the tell "congratulating the doctor" itself leads to the tell "role fishing", and my words "congratulating the doctor is a small scum tell" is talking about the tell itself. however, when we add in other fact such as bjl is persuading others to believe there is really a doctor, our "congratulaing the doctor" case is fishing.

No. "Persuading the others there is a doctor", even if you word his questions that strongly, is still not fishing. It is

not

implying for anyone to come out.

2) Why it is natural a townie to assume that there is a doc when

the time limit for submitting the night choices has not been crossed and there is no nightkill on N1

:

you really noticed that "the time limit for submitting the night choices has not been crossed and there is no nightkill on N1"? why would a townie be aware of the night deadline? and you know bjl noticed it?

I noticed it because blj stated it aloud in the thread, just after the night. He probably noticed it because it was quite blatantly early, the thread opened 2 days after lynch scene rather than 3.

but we have mafia no-kill in day 1 for many games, and they are all stupid? and the semi-confirmed things is wrong as scum can be the one that was protected and be the semi-confirmed one. and you are dismissing all the case where scum counter-claim cop or doctor. so, mafia no-killing in day 1 is a common and not bad tactic, it depends on the situation of each game.

In many games? Links please!
I've never seen an intentional N1 no-kill in this setup in the situation where no powerroles are out, and I've read many newbie games!
And I already explained that there's a chance a scum is protected, but there's a bigger chance that town is and it can really screw scum over! And counterclaiming is possible and necessary in some of the screwed-over instances, but it will put scum unnecessarily to 1-on-1 situation and is just a risk for no great benefit.

And just to make sure, no, the likely doc here should not claim today.
But all of this talk of my slot or Cookie attempting to persuade them to claim, it's not true. My previous incarnation or him never implied they should come out. Just said it's likely there's a doc and got hell for it.

it is a newbie game, and you shouldn't assume all doctor knows not claiming is the best tactic.

And no one ever implied they should claim!

Also, by going your own arguments of fishing, isn't it much worse to be shouting "he must be scum or doctor!" as you are doing in Cookie's case?

yes, i'm concluding that he should be the doctor or scum. who else can be sure that there is a doctor? maybe the mod do.

Let's remind ourselves what cookie actually said:

Why is it suspicious to assume first that we have a doctor? Nobody died tonight. It's not surprising someone might think there's a doctor.

THIS IS asking what is suspicious about assuming there's a doc.
THIS IS NOT saying "I am sure there is a doc".
Your interpretation is so incredibly blatant misrepping that I really can't see how you would be actually scumhunting and searching for the truth rather than slinging mud for your life.

I shall continue replying to the rest of the manho posts after dinner, gimme a sec.

[Ojanen]

Continuation to the last point, if you want to retort that later in the pages he thinks it's really likely there's a doctor, I would refer to your own LoS D2 which you explained by saying that it's really likely there's a doctor so it's not anti-town, as your previous stance was.
Also, you didn't reply to that but saying you think someone is either scum or doctor is BLATANT fishing, my supposed cardinal sin, and you're not even wanting to lynch him today!

being busy is a reason. as i was behind the game for many times, i need to rely on other's discussion to get back in the game. so, my best way to do so is the look for who is being accused and then look at his ISO to see if he is really scummy for me, and i usually have my own reason to vote. that is scum-hunting.

You can iso-read perfectly well anyone on your own also when you come to the thread, and the part that exposes your scumminess most is when you change opinions about previous events to suit the current thread mood.

2. Saying that your behaviour has been opportunistic is in no way an ad hominem attack. A short hand for someone who behaves opportunistically is an opportunist. We are supposed to be analyzing each others' behaviour.

i think i forgot to state that the ad hominem attack is refer to the attack on my accusation. you should be defending yourself now as deadline is near and you are the leading one for a lynch, so your attack on me seems to be an ad hominem attack on my accusation on you. in other words, me being "opportunistic" does not make my case on you worse.
wait, you are right, and i forgot that you need to push for someone else's lynch to stay alive. so, your attack may not be ad hominem, and you should be defending yourself and attacking someone at the same time.

I

am

loudly attacking some of the case on me, because it's bad. I'm defending my slot. I'm simultaneously attacking the player that I find most scummy in the game. I'm stating who I have a townread on for max information. I don't get your point.
Also, the definition of ad hominem is attacking the person, not the arguments. I'm clearly attacking the arguments.
I am town, and it is natural to suspect some of my wagon is scum. Being on my wagon definitely doesn't make me too partial to argue for someone's scumminess.
You are trying to dismiss this this as OMGUS, which is a weak deflection of the actual arguments. You should be replying to the arguments convingcingly instead, and replying to the arguments against your case convingcingly.

My first notes from D1 were about Zach who is not pushing for my lynch btw, so that also makes your point invalid.

@others, while you are examining ojanen's case on me, please be aware that i have a case on ojanen/bjl/yernab.
@mod: when is the deadline?

Quote implies the attempt to deflect my attack as mere OMGUS.
The deadlline questions give the impression of manho being worried about getting the day done soon and tide turning.

[Kyiv]

that's not a LoS, and not a list that provide target for mislynch or kill. LoS provides mislynch as it said who is the scummiest, but the list from me didn't contain bjl and cookie, who is the scummiest and the one that i don't believe is a mislynch. the list also didn't give out nk options. it is likely that we have a doctor, and assuming we have a doctor, scum should choose whether killing the most pro-town one and risk that the kill is protected, or killing the other and lower the risk. so, the scum can't get benefit from the list, but town does.

Yes. That's exactly what it's not. A LoS lists off people on your scumdar. Here, you have stated who you believe is most townish, which provides targets to the scum, as you argued earlier! You don't need to spell it out for Mafia for it to be a LoS. It doesn't matter who you believe is scummy, because you're voting for them (And you also FoS Cookie). And I'm not arguing against a LoS, I'm arguing against your contradiction.

With that said, you have contradicted yourself and backpedaled more than once in your cases, and you are

still

misrepresenting people, (Cookie -never- stated the existence of a doc. He -only- questioned the attacks on Bjl's comments). Furthermore, I'm now convinced that Bjl's actions were newbie mistakes. I suspected his slot because of his actions and could not fathom him being a newbie looking at his join date, but he really does only has 13 posts, and both games he played he has indeed flaked. In this light:

Vote: Manho

[manho]

@ojanen: bjl is implying the doctor should claim. proof? yes, i am the doctor and i was tempted to claim after bjl's posts. i protected soyasushi last night.

my LoS is intended to give scum target for night kill, and tell you that i had proteced soyasushi after i were night killed.

[manho]

the last post is really a role claim.

[EtherealCookie]

lol... what am I at? L-1? man... I've been sick since thursday and haven't been near a computer. I'm not going to defend myself other than say I'm a plain ol' townie. I don't have time for more right now. good luck.

Ojanen, can you defend Bjl's reasonings for flaking after being put at L-1, his lack of defense, and his role claim?

Comment to EtherealCookie: I think you are town but communicate somewhat unpleasantly. Please just attack arguments instead of also calling people stupid.
(bracing for accusations of coaching...)

It would help if I could understand what they're trying to say, or if they bothered reading my posts.

[Ojanen]

...Ok, that is a whoa manho post.
Why did you claim now?????
Are there any counterclaims?

unvote

for now

It would help if I could understand what they're trying to say, or if they bothered reading my posts.

Yes there is tunneling, but please stop this sulking, you're not helping at all. Everyone's posts is perfectly understandable if you actually want to understand them.