Newbie 843 (Game Over)

[tubby216]

No, that has nothing to do with it.
The fact is, he actually brings up points, you don't.

so?

[hohum]

Official Vote Count:

Ojanen(3): Meji Fan, Soyasushi, manho

EtherealCookie(2): tubby216, Zachrulez
tubby216(1): EtherealCookie

Not Voting(1): Ojanen, Kyiv

With 8 Alive it takes 5 to lynch

[EtherealCookie]

So if you're a town you're being anti-town. You're not really contributing at all. I can say X is scummy too, or Y is town. That doesn't help town with anything.

[Ojanen]

These are my original notes on Zach, and I stand by them. Kyiv, you kinda labeled Zach just a lurker, but I genuinely think he's scummy, not just passive, with the scummy reasons and timings for voting and theory-discussion-active lurking and whatnot.

I've taken a renewed look at his reaction from last night.

Well look at it simply from the point of view I am seeing it from right now. You made this big case on Manho, that you wanted everyone to comment on.

You pushed this whole agenda of saying that you felt Manho was the best lynch, even using him asking about the deadline as some indication that he's even scummy.

Then he claims doc.

And everything changes.

Clearly scum's goal is to make cases against townies that look good enough on the surface but in reality are just total crap.

So tell me what I should think. Was your whole case just an honest mistake now, or should I think that maybe you have a more sinister intention beneath the surface of what you are posting?

And this kind of vaguely argumented/phrased "you did something deviant, I'm gonna assume it's scummy" logic just doesn't sit well with me. I coloured 3 different thought steps and I just can't see the reasoning that he's using to jump from one color to next, especially since he hasn't even taken a look at the case, except if he wants to mudsling. And I had just started to attack him again.

Also stuff like:

Why exactly are you interested in why I think he's town? Do you want to know if my arguments were valid enough to justify him being town in order to draw a scum nk toward him? I don't really get it.

Where he distorts the exchange, and asks a totally strange related-to-nothing question of drawing in a nk.

On this page of this recently ended game, approx. posts 752-763, I caught VP Baltar as scum from his reaction (also other play was Zachish, although in less pronounced form of vagueness), and I don't know if I can explain this better but Zach just feels like the same type of scum here. The wiggly, logic-bending lash-back reaction is similar.
Anyway, that's why I

vote: Zach

-----

@tubby, please answer to me about this:

And

for the people who are saying he is scum defending town

tubby, what on earth would be the scum motive to defend my slot so forcefully? He has gotten sooo much heat just because of the defence that people actually want to lynch him instead of me, do you find that a good tell for scum who's basic nature is to hide?

The reasons why I think Ethereal's defence was not unreasonable at all as a thought process, are again:
-looking for scum from town lynch wagon is absolutely a good idea and noone turned to each other after the mislynch
-my wagon exploded right at the beginning of D2 which would suggest some scum influence
-he didn't actually agree with the scumtell everyone was finding so huge (doc thing)
-he himself also got immediately hounded

To me, those are reasonable currents to base a townread on.


Cookie, I'm not inclined to vote tubby at the moment. I'll say something about his reaction later, but I wanna see a couple more people react first.

[tubby216]

@tubby, please answer to me about this:
Earlier I wrote:
And for the people who are saying he is scum defending town tubby, what on earth would be the scum motive to defend my slot so forcefully? He has gotten sooo much heat just because of the defence that people actually want to lynch him instead of me, do you find that a good tell for scum who's basic nature is to hide?

The reasons why I think Ethereal's defence was not unreasonable at all as a thought process, are again:
-looking for scum from town lynch wagon is absolutely a good idea and noone turned to each other after the mislynch
-my wagon exploded right at the beginning of D2 which would suggest some scum influence
-he didn't actually agree with the scumtell everyone was finding so huge (doc thing)
-he himself also got immediately hounded

ok look i'll answer you points ten put a couple of my own.

your point 1

- I'll conceed your wagon did spark quickly and bjl flaked before we could ge a good response.

my point1

-cookie jumped in and defended far too early before a reaction from bjl could properly be gaged.

your point 2

- scum tells are left up to interpretation, there is no check list of scum tells that people can simply check off

my point2

he never actually said why it wasn't a scum tell and his defense was minor chainsaw by saying "well look at whos is on the wagon sheesh its alls scum"

your point 3

-so he should have been hounded and should continuely be hounded i don't believe his response are all that good either. although i am pretty sure he is convinced I am an idiot.

i see plenty of scum motivation to defend your slot so boldly. even at the time it looked as if you would be the certian lynch of the day.
even though cookie claimed townie i see that as a false claim and completely expect a different claim tomorrow and i will just leave it at that.

so i think that satisfies your points vs my points

[Ojanen]

^ Ladies and gentlemen, those are townish looking thought processes.
Slightly tragically I'm leaning more and more like I share a wincon with both of you, so I'll bring some counterpoints.

Can you please reread page 10 once neutrally?
Sequence of events:
1.Cookie says BEFORE suspicion on me: "First, we need to examine the bandwagon on Wrath." (note: brings up a point that makes himself look worse)
2. Meji suspects the doc comment.
3. Cookie asks what's suspicious about assuming a doc.
4. Zach thinks it's suspicious and has a little dialogue with my slot.
5. tubby suspects, manho says yeah it's a small tell.
6. Meji votes me, Zach suspects me more.
7. Cookie is left wondering why noone is looking at the wagon:

Did BFL jump on the bandwagon? I don't like the lynch the lurker policy on only day II. Seems like a terrible idea. I'm pretty sure at least one mafia is on the bandwagon. They tend to be.

8. Zach brushes off bandwagon thing. Tubby votes me with "I agree with Meji"
9.Cookie is getting pissed at being ignored

...
Well, you have tubby's support. . I really, really, want to lynch him bad, but meta tells me that he behaves this way regularly. Agrees with Meji, vote. Amazing. Just amazing.

10. Soya comes in and votes me.

That is already everyone except Cookie, me and pianist, who hasn't been around to comment since the thing exploded (and wasn't on D1 lynch wagon), suspecting me.

Page 11: tubby suspects Cookie; tubby and Cookie start to fight. Now everyone around seems almost universally to think we're scum together.
Simplification of rest of D2: Cookie fights bitterly tubby and manho and occasional other jibes.

my point2

he never actually said why it wasn't a scum tell and his defense was minor chainsaw by saying "well look at whos is on the wagon sheesh its alls scum"

I think the last sentence is not true btw, he clearly had other thoughts from just reading page 10.

[Ojanen]

btw

i see plenty of scum motivation to defend your slot so boldly. even at the time it looked as if you would be the certian lynch of the day.

No it didn't, 'twas earlier.

even though cookie claimed townie i see that as a false claim and completely expect a different claim tomorrow and i will just leave it at that.

Claiming something else would be seen as claiming scum so that's just silly.

[tubby216]

btw

i see plenty of scum motivation to defend your slot so boldly. even at the time it looked as if you would be the certian lynch of the day.

No it didn't, 'twas earlier.

even though cookie claimed townie i see that as a false claim and completely expect a different claim tomorrow and i will just leave it at that.

Claiming something else would be seen as claiming scum so that's just silly.

not what i was implying but i'll let it go

[Kyiv]

You know Cookie, for being so vocal against him, you haven't said a word about Manho's doc claim. Do you still believe Tubby and Manho to be scumpartners?

[EtherealCookie]

I do not.
Scum is tubby and Manho.
They probably planned out no night kill the first day so that they could claim doc just in case. It's a risky move, if doc exists. However, that would mean town doc, if he exists, should claim. But if he doesn't exist or claim, well, Manho has no problems now, does he?
I don't know about Zach. Overall, I don't get any scum vibes from him. You're going to bring up more on that case.
As a reminder, we're close to the dead line. Three days.

[Meji Fan]

Mod, I request replacement

I am truly sorry everyone, the move was an epic disaster, I now finally have net back, but all the chaos and backlog from the move I can do nothing

[hohum]

Starbuck replaces Meji Fan

[Starbuck]

Hello everyone!

Nice to see some familiar faces (Tubby, Zach and Cookie), and some new ones too!

I'll be catching up shortly.

[tubby216]

hiya starbuck welcome

[Ojanen]

Welcome Starbuck.
Uh,

mod

any possibility for deadline extension?
We have a new replacement again, Soyasushi is V/LA until 8th so she would be away throughout the night and beginning of D2 and the town already lost some time when finding replacements last time due to you being missing for a while?

[manho]

@mod: we need more time. can you extend the deadline?

^ Ladies and gentlemen, those are townish looking thought processes.
Slightly tragically I'm leaning more and more like I share a wincon with both of you, so I'll bring some counterpoints.

Can you please reread page 10 once neutrally?
Sequence of events:

1.Cookie says BEFORE suspicion on me: "First, we need to examine the bandwagon on Wrath." (note: brings up a point that makes himself look worse)
...
7. Cookie is left wondering why noone is looking at the wagon:
...

...

cookie is emphasising that we should look into the wagon on Wrath, but not the scum tell we spot in D2. the wagon is worth an investigation, but it is possible that only one or none of the scums is in the wagon. and the wagon is deadline-pushed, but not scum-pushed, so we can't really get much from the wagon. cookie is just trying to distract our focus to last night's wagon. and along with cookie's twilight talk, he is probably setting up a mislynch on tubby.

as ojanen is being more pro-town in day 2 though bjl is scum, i'll

unvote

and

vote: cookie

[Ojanen]

manho, since I can't tell quite tell from your wording, do you think I am scum with Cookie?

[hohum]

The game is full and you still have ~48 hours until deadline. Soyasushi's replacement will be joining the game shortly.

14. One daytime deadline extension of up to one week may be granted at the moderator's discretion in extreme circumstances and only if activity levels aren't impairing game progress.

I understand there's been an unusually high number of replacements this game; however, taking into consideration the fact that your game is currently full again, it doesn't qualify as extenuating circumstances. I would suggest that you guys use the time that you have left to your advantage.

[Starbuck]

May I ask for a deadline extension please?

I definitely think there needs to be one.

[Starbuck]

I'd just like to be caught up before deadline hits, but if you feel one isn't needed that's fine too.

[hohum]

PaltryExcuse replaces Soyasushi

[PaltryExcuse]

'lo All! Hello again Starbuck! Nice to see you again. I'm your friendly neighbourhood replacement for Soyasushi.

Just a bit about me on the site:
This is only my second game, and first time replacing.

I'll be trying to catch up ASAP, but would appreciate an extension as well. Anyways... off I go.

[Ojanen]

Welcome, welcome. Sorry for my catch up walls, must be inconvenient now.
I'm actually really interested in manho's answer so I hope he gets back soon.

[Ojanen]

Also,

@mod once more

, I'm sorry to bother again and you're obviously the god here, but I'd just argue that time was lost and the game was almost on hold for a while when replacement of my slot and Kyiv's slot took longer due to your access problems, and with 25% of the players replaced again about 48 hours before deadline a small extension wouldn't seem unreasonable.
But obviously your ruling and I'll shut up about it now. Also, I appreciate your modding in any case.

[Zachrulez]

Hey guys, I'm actually quite busy right now, but given how close it is to the deadline I'll see what I can do to catch up later tonight.