Newbie 855 (Game over)

[foilist13]

I'm wondering the same thing.

Are you trying to discern why he was night killed as opposed to someone else?

[Socrates]

Bah, I was far too lazy yesterday. I started falling behind and then I saw these massive wall o' text posts going back and forth between Cthulu and Foilist and I just kept putting reading this game off until later, and the day ended before I got around to it. I'm awfully ashamed of this, especially since now that I have gotten to reading them, I do not like what I see.

I think Cthulhu hopping off of the YankCane wagon onto the Foilist wagon on the basis of

YankCane

being scum is absurdly bad. Using the alignment of someone else to attack another player when that alignment isn't confirmed is illogical and scummy. It looks to me like scum trying to have his cake and eat it too, getting a mislynch off on Foilist and then when he flips town turn it back around and say that YankCane could still be scum.

vote: CthulhuDreams

I can see what Foilist is talking about regarding Yank's wagon, and if I had to pick one scum out of {Zhero, Aldusskel} it would probably be Zhero, because he seemed to be playing it awfully low key all day yesterday (tbh, I kept forgetting about him entirely), but I like this vote better.

[Y]

I want to check how, and more importantly by who, imkingdavid got noticed.

I still don't like foilist. I thought he is scum D1, and nothing he did changes it. He was on the YC wagon like the others, and he's now pushing the player who attacked him. He excluded himself from the "suspects list" and everybody follows. Not good.

[SaintKerrigan]

Are you paying attention, Y? Foilist13 is voting for Zhero, not CthulhuDreams, and for a fairly decent reason. And why should he include himself on his own suspect list, especially since he claims he's trying to find scum on YC's bandwagon?

I also don't like how you're speculating on the matter of i'mkingdavid's death. What exactly do you hope to accomplish by investigating a nightkill this early in the game?

However, right now I'd like to

Vote: Zhero.

He's had a very small number of posts for the amount of time this game has gone on (less than one per day) and what he has had to say feels lacking in substance.

[Socrates]

I can see what Foilist is talking about regarding Yank's wagon, and if I had to pick one scum out of {Zhero, Aldusskel} it would probably be Zhero, because he seemed to be playing it awfully low key all day yesterday (tbh, I kept forgetting about him entirely), but I like this vote better.

Those brackets should read {Zhero, Aldusskel, Foilist} I forgot to mention foilist here because I think Cthulu and foilist are pretty mutually exculsive as far as scum partners go.

[Alduskkel]

I think Zhero HAS been posting substance. What exactly is insubstantial about his posts?

[SaintKerrigan]

(Ignoring confirm.) Post 1:

Hey all, glad to see the game moving.

Vote: YankCane151

For not posting yet past the confirm.

Random vote. It's worth mentioning that this is the only vote he has for the entire game.

Post 2:

I don't see what Y did to be a scumtell... even if he hadn't extrapolated with more information, posting to look helpful without actually saying anything isn't much of a tell in the pregame since there's nothing to coast through yet.

I think voting someone to what you think is L-2 this early on is suspicious, but helps generate conversation and move us past the random votes.

Other than that, I agree with Y that some people seem to be confused as to what's going on.

Comments on what's going on at the time, offers his opinions on what Y is doing and on voting someone to L-2 early in the game. Nothing wrong here that I can see.

Post 3:

Still doesn't change the fact that your vote is weak.

Is voting him for having a weak vote much stronger though?

Foilist, gut reads may not be helpful to the conversation themselves, but both Cthulhu and Socrates backed theirs up fairly well.

Also..

Town players are much more careful in reading the thread

I'm fine with dicey. I'm not going to lie, I didn't read the thread carefully

The first part comments on YC's attack on Aldusskel. Nothing wrong there. The second part argues with Foilist13 regarding gut feeling. Nothing terribly suspicious about that.

The third part, however, seems like misrepresentation. He cuts off part of Foilist's post to make him look bad. Here's the full post from Foilist:

I'm fine with dicey. I'm not going to lie, I didn't read the thread carefully at all on day 3 of a newbie game when we are BARELY out of RVS. If you think I continue to act scummy then we'll see, but for now I don't feel like I'm any more or less pro-town than anyone else.

What Foilist actually said and the way Zhero presents it are clearly different.

Post 4:

Yeah, not really seeing the connection between Soc and Ald. Two people agreeing with each other isn't much of a scumtell.

Comments on YC's suspicion that Socrates and Aldusskel are scumpartners. Reasonable enough.

Post 5:

@Zhero - The first quote stands, and shockingly the second was during the random voting stage. There is no scumhunting to be done and no reason to carefully examine the thread.

It may be random voting, but it's still worth looking into. If good information never came from random voting, we wouldn't do it.

Also, later in the thread (iso 5) you state that you're not sure you have a vote up or not. This is also not indicitive of a careful read.

Argues with Foilist on the value of RVS, and continues to flog him over not reading the thread carefully. Personally, I think this is trying to make something out of nothing. People miss things sometimes, and Foilist is making sure that he unvotes his previous target before voting his new one.

Post 6:

I feel that foilist's posts are often off the mark or arguing semantics, and not really contributing much to the conversation, perhaps as an attempt to fly under the radar as scum.

I think a much bigger problem right now though is the inactivity.. only 4 people have posted in the last 48 hours, though I guess I can't really blame them too much if they're waiting for a votecount.

Argues his case against Foilist, but doesn't provide any examples. Null tell by itself, but feels suspicious to me in conjunction with things like the misrepresentation back in Post 3.

It's rather ironic that he comments on the lack of activity when he himself has only six posts not including the confirm...

Post 7:

What makes you think that? I don't get that feeling from foilist.

The 'gut feeling' arguement is more semantic than helpful, and as I've stated, he doesn't seem to be very aware of the game. There's not much else there to read; I'd like to hear more from him.

foilist: What are your thoughts on the game right now? Who's looking scummy to you?

Also interested to hear something from VertFire and YankCane.

Now he provides an example of what he means by "arguing semantics." Personally, though, I'm not seeing where he's coming from. Either the argument's not there, or I just don't get it. He's free to clarify things for me if he so wishes. Inquires the thoughts of Foilist, and requests posts from VertFire and YC.

Post 8:

Zhero: You're accusing foilist and named him as your top suspect when answering my question, yet you're voting 151. Why?

Yeah, my goal was really just to get a better read on him, and it sounds like there's more coming soon.

YankCane, no responses to posts 108 or 120? Why the unvote? A little elaboration would be nice.

Now here's something interesting. He's been posting plenty regarding Foilist13, and suddenly he announces his goal was just to get a better read on him? If that's true, then what about the other players in the game--

including

the person you're currently voting for?

Especially

the person you're voting for? Don't you want to try and get a better read on him?

Post 9:

I'm in favor of a YankCane lynch so far.. pointing out that CD will look scummy for driving your lynch isn't really a defense. YC, if Ald isn't worth a vote, who is? If you are lynched, it'll be good to have your opinions. The more info we have to work with, the better.

I'm going to put my vote on YankCane151 because I have seen no contribution to the game, but enough activity to remain. Also it is important that we do lynch someone (just came from a game where the town never made up their minds and missed out on day 1).

Don't have to worry about that this game, by the rules if there's no majority by deadline the person with the most votes gets lynched. I agree that it's still better to get a majority though.

I'm not sure I see the distancing thing, foilist's early posts were less a defence of VC and more an attack on CD's points.

Looking forward to hearing from you, imkingdavid!

Finally he posts a reason for why he's left his initially random vote on YC, but he only lists one reason. Maybe he felt that the other reasons had been beaten to death, so he didn't bother posting them. My issue, however, is that he waited

two weeks

to finally address why he's voting for YC. It doesn't help that YC flipped town.

Post 10:

I responded to it, and there is no logical refutation to my argument, so I would appreciate moving on from the point. If there is something specific about it that you want to talk about please bring it up.

Between this and the downplay of gut reads, it feels like you're trying to squelch conversation...

If you payed attention, the vote wasn't until a later post, and supplying information doesn't make the info invalid.

Er, your attack on CD's attack on YC happens in the same post as your vote.. unless I'm confused, nothing else before that relates.

Just reminder to all, only 4 days until deadline!

Again he moves on Foilist. In my opinion, I don't think what he says here is valid. Foilist felt the situation was dealt with and wished to move on, and at best I would take it as a null tell. Considering that Foilist has been one of the more active players so far, this accusation by Zhero of trying to squelch conversation seems thin.

If I understand correctly now (and if I got this wrong correct me, I'm still confused on the issue), Foilist's advice and vote were in different posts, thus nullifying the arguments raised by CD and Zhero.

The final sentence is a general reminder about the deadline.

Post 11:

Hello SaintKerrigan! Good to see a replacement for VertFire, he really hasn't said much at all. Everyone's posted in the last two days, so I think we're done with replacements for now; the other one you saw mentioned might have been imkingdavid, who also just got here.

Y, you're reading as though you're both on and not on YC's wagon at the same time. Most of your mentions of him are attempts to clarify the case against him. Do you think he's scum?

YankCane, no claim? If you're a power role, it's better to force scum to NK you than it is to waste the lynch.

First part is addressed to me. Nothing wrong with it. Second part parrots Aldusskel's charge against Y, and the third part echoes sentiments from other players on why YC should roleclaim. Feels like scum trying to roll on by.

These are all the posts that Zhero has made, and collectively I feel right now that Zhero isn't really trying to be helpful. He's free to start posting more and prove me wrong, but until he does (or if someone does something

really

scummy), I'll keep my vote where it is.

[foilist13]

You'll notice that I explicitly excluded myself from my suspect list and said why. Accusing me of doing that is a moot point.

@Socrates - I'm a little confused by your post. Why do you think CthulhuDreams is a better choice than Zhero?

@Alduskkel - What are your thoughts on Zhero? do you find him scummy at all, or do you still think his posts were substantial?

[Socrates]

You'll notice that I explicitly excluded myself from my suspect list and said why. Accusing me of doing that is a moot point.

@Socrates - I'm a little confused by your post. Why do you think CthulhuDreams is a better choice than Zhero?

@Alduskkel - What are your thoughts on Zhero? do you find him scummy at all, or do you still think his posts were substantial?

His argument was that you are bussing your scum buddy Yank, an argument which hinges entirely on Yank being scum. Don't you think it is scummy that he wouldn't wait to see if Yank is

actually

scum before trying to push such a wagon?

Zhero might not be very outgoing, but I don't think he has committed any out and out scum tells, and neither has Alduskkel. Why should I vote for them when I think Cthulhu has done something actually scummy?

[CthulhuDreams]

@Y and CthulhuDreams - What are your reads on the other players as of now?

I'm re-reading the thread in light of my assumptions being deflated. FYI, I still don't like you, but I'm happy to leave this one for now!

I'm a bit lost at sea in terms of suspicions for the moment, so I have many because they are all weak. Currently I don't like Alduskkel because he just posts one liner questions - but I cannot say he isn't scum hunting, Y! for what I'd call similar behaviour. I still don't like Foilist13 either.

Socrates currently seems okay enough, a bit more substance to the questioning, and I hadn't really considered Zhero so I'm going to chew on that for the moment. SK is a wildcard on the back of PP's inactivity, which I thought was sus, but cannot be a strategy at this junction. SK has stepped it up several notches though so the situation is developing.

@Socrates: I switched because it looked like Y! wanted to lynch Foilist instead and we weren't going to get a hammer on YC151 due to a lack of momentum. I still think (as I did then) the level of misreading going on was slightly absurd. Removal of the bus does make the case substantially weaker however.

[CthulhuDreams]

EBWOY: Err, it was clear that we might get a lynch due to deadline expiry, but we might not get a lynch with a hammer vote, and yeah, I was still definately happy to lynch foilist.

[Y]

You'll notice that I explicitly excluded myself from my suspect list and said why. Accusing me of doing that is a moot point.

That would be right if it was meant for you. But it isn't.
What I was trying to say is that you excluded yourself, which would be reasonable by any one (No one tries to prove he himself is scum), and then other people followed without questioning. Your behavior is expected. Other people following it isn't.

[SaintKerrigan]

Y, you aren't making much sense to me at all...

[foilist13]

Hmm, I'm starting to rethink my Zhero vote. As I look back he seems less to be lurking than to be inactive. Idk, Alduskkel could be construed as scum, but for the moment I don't have anything that isn't WIFOM. I encourage all the players to take a much closer look at those two, but for now I'm leaving my vote on Zhero.

[Alduskkel]

@Alduskkel - What are your thoughts on Zhero? do you find him scummy at all, or do you still think his posts were substantial?

I think that you could say his posts are a lot of things (such as infrequent) but he always has something to say. The misrepresentation given above is kind of scummy, but in my experience misrepresenting never seems to be a good scum tell. I couldn't say why.

[Alduskkel]

And if you guys want to make a case on me, fine, but don't just throw out half-suspicions.

[foilist13]

Perhaps you could voice some suspicions about another player, or even any content at all. It would be helpful to us to get a fresh read on you and confirm that you are town, wouldn't you say?

[Alduskkel]

Perhaps you could voice some suspicions about another player, or even any content at all. It would be helpful to us to get a fresh read on you and confirm that you are town, wouldn't you say?

Truth be told I have a Town read on everyone in the game.

[Zhero]

I do agree that I could've been a little more active Day 1, but postcount alone isn't really indicitive of lurking; it's wholly possible to post a ton of meaningless posts.

Random vote. It's worth mentioning that this is the only vote he has for the entire game.

The voted started out random, but YC drew my attention from there, and I never unvoted because he remained my primary suspect throughout Day 1.

The third part, however, seems like misrepresentation. He cuts off part of Foilist's post to make him look bad. Here's the full post from Foilist:

I'm fine with dicey. I'm not going to lie, I didn't read the thread carefully at all on day 3 of a newbie game when we are BARELY out of RVS. If you think I continue to act scummy then we'll see, but for now I don't feel like I'm any more or less pro-town than anyone else.

What Foilist actually said and the way Zhero presents it are clearly different.

I'm not sure what being on page 3 changes; if anything, shouldn't it be easier to fully read a short thread? I don't see where you're going here, no misinterpretation was intended.

Argues with Foilist on the value of RVS, and continues to flog him over not reading the thread carefully. Personally, I think this is trying to make something out of nothing. People miss things sometimes, and Foilist is making sure that he unvotes his previous target before voting his new one.

Argues his case against Foilist, but doesn't provide any examples. Null tell by itself, but feels suspicious to me in conjunction with things like the misrepresentation back in Post 3.

Now he provides an example of what he means by "arguing semantics." Personally, though, I'm not seeing where he's coming from. Either the argument's not there, or I just don't get it. He's free to clarify things for me if he so wishes. Inquires the thoughts of Foilist, and requests posts from VertFire and YC.

A quick iso on foilist up to that point in time:

Posts 0-1 are pregame, post 2 a random vote for Ald.

Post 3: misunderstands the suspicion on Y, not providing anything to the conversation.

Post 4: I still get bad vibes from this post. I understand it's early in the game, but it still doesn't seem like he's actually saying anything. He acknowledges his earlier misunderstanding, but doesn't weigh in on the points he missed because of it.

Posts 5-6-7: the gut feeling arguement, which I still feel is largely semantic and does not anywhere. I didn't think Cth's vote on YC was unexplained; his motives were clear to me at least, and foilist latched onto the 'going with my gut' phrase and largely ignored the actual idea.

Really, I just don't see much actual scumhunting here. It reads as fluff to me.

It's rather ironic that he comments on the lack of activity when he himself has only six posts not including the confirm...

As I said in the post, over half the game was in prod range. We hadn't heard from foilist in 4 days, VertFire in 5, and PP in 6. There'd been 6 posts in the last 2 days, and of the 2 that weren't requests for votecounts or a V/LA notice, one was mine. I think complaining about inactivity was fair there.

Now here's something interesting. He's been posting plenty regarding Foilist13, and suddenly he announces his goal was just to get a better read on him? If that's true, then what about the other players in the game--including the person you're currently voting for? Especially the person you're voting for? Don't you want to try and get a better read on him?

I think you're misrepresenting me here. I ask YC questions in posts 3, 7, and 8, and comment on a point of his is post 4. The only reason I go more in-depth with foilist is because YC wasn't giving me much to work with.

I did want a better read on YC; not sure why you ignore me asking him for just that in that exact same post.

Finally he posts a reason for why he's left his initially random vote on YC, but he only lists one reason. Maybe he felt that the other reasons had been beaten to death, so he didn't bother posting them. My issue, however, is that he waited two weeks to finally address why he's voting for YC. It doesn't help that YC flipped town.

I originally left the vote on YC as a pressure vote, hoping to get more info out of him. My explanation came when it did because that was when I first really felt that we weren't getting any more out of YC... his posts had basically degraded to pointless OMGUS.

Again he moves on Foilist. In my opinion, I don't think what he says here is valid. Foilist felt the situation was dealt with and wished to move on, and at best I would take it as a null tell. Considering that Foilist has been one of the more active players so far, this accusation by Zhero of trying to squelch conversation seems thin.

It's worth pointing out, at the time of that post he only had 2 more posts than me, and as I've mentioned, I found many of them to be contentless as is. As for my case against foilist, you may disagree with my conclusion, but that doesn't make my post not scumhunting.

If I understand correctly now (and if I got this wrong correct me, I'm still confused on the issue), Foilist's advice and vote were in different posts, thus nullifying the arguments raised by CD and Zhero.

I thought the advice in question was his comments on gut feelings, which started the whole semantics arguement and the whole Cth/foilist back-and-forth, which did indeed come in the same post as his vote. I might just be confused myself though.

These are all the posts that Zhero has made, and collectively I feel right now that Zhero isn't really trying to be helpful. He's free to start posting more and prove me wrong, but until he does (or if someone does something really scummy), I'll keep my vote where it is.

You acknowledge that I'm making useful comments (or at least "nothing wrong") in basically all of my non-foilist-related posts, so I get the feeling you just disagree with my argument. I hope I've clarified it in this post, and if not, I'm happy to try.

I'll get a post up concerning Day 2 thus far later this evening.

[CthulhuDreams]

I note foilist only claimed his vote and his advice where in different posts after I asked him to clarify, was ignored, asked again, was ignored again, and then provided the cover - and it's STILL pretty dubious. That 'advice' is so disconnected from that vote it's not even funny.

It's the major reason I switched votes and it's the major reason I still don't like foilist.

[CthulhuDreams]

EBWOY: He claimed the cover after (and only after) I mentioned it. TBH to me the previous 4 posts by him where he didn't claim the cover and ignored my direct quest for clarification are so dicey it's not funny.

[CthulhuDreams]

EBWOP: Just an FYI: The post that is making me so agitated about the entire thing is 186.

[Zhero]

foilist: You've gone from having a town read on Ald to thinking he might be scummy pretty quickly there. What changed?

Y: Did you get anything from your reread of PP/ikd?

CthulhuDreams: Could we get a more specific timeline on your point about foilist? I have to admit, I'm getting kinda confused here.

[CthulhuDreams]

In post 185 he claims that the post and the vote where in separate posts

In post 186 I ask him if we're talking about post 84. It was immediately after he posted.

He then refused the chance to clarify in 192, 210, 211, and 218, then I post:

In post 186, I offer him the chance to clarify if he is talking about the post in which he voted me (their is another earlier post he might be concivably talking about), but he's posted since then and ignored my post, so either he's not reading the thread, or knows he's been caught in a lie and is rying to avoid bringing attention to.

When I accuse him of lying he says that the post with the advice and a vote wasn't advice, and he meant post 65.

Y's mistake was not a scum tell. There is no advantage for scum to mislead the town into thinking it requires fewer votes to lynch, ergo a scum player would not have done it intentionally. A town player is equally likely to make that mistake as a scum player, and it does not advance the game either way. You are voting from the standpoint that mistakes are scum tells, but they are not.

Context for post 65 with a direct link so you can see yourself: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &&start=65

Alduskkel Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:00 pm Post subject: 66 Reply with quote
foil, no one's voting for Y because of that.

Anyway, that still makes me agitated, but it's nothing firm to go with.

[Y]

While PP didn't say much, david did post good posts and gave a good town vibe (We now know he was in fact a townie).

While he did vote YC (Leading to his lynch), the player he most talked about and appeared to suspect was foilist. He also commented that he'll be putting an eye on him today.

That added to the general feeling of foilist trying to cover up the mistakes he did, I'll

Vote foilist13

.