By some luck I managed to glean some time to reread the second half of the game and say some things. (Quite a lot, as it turned out. Oh well, that was certainly more fun than my math assignment...
)
1) I noticed a worrying thing about hewitt. He's acting very cautiously, he says he doesn't want to vote until he's certain that someone should be lynched. All the while he says he feels there's nothing to comment on and that the farside/scien discussion hurt the game. He must have realised that good discussion and strong arguments won't just come out of the underbrush singing songs. They need to be made. If he's town, then it's in his best interest to try to get better arguments. Yet he's not doing such an effort. Fine, he's reluctant to use his vote for that end (although it could've been useful, I think) - but how about asking questions? He says he finds farside scummiest, but he doesn't question her, he doesn't try to push her, pin her down, anything of the sort, to get better arguments. He's not really pressing anyone else either. He seems content enough sitting in the corner.
2) At one point Fuzzy said he's going to reply to my questions just after he got an answer from farside. While the significance and relevance of these questions is lower now, it's still worthy to note that he didn't, actually, answer them at any point.
3)
Nikanor wrote:
farside wrote:
I notice that very few scum now how to be aggressive in the beginning of the game. They either followers, or they hem and haw or backtrack or make wishy washy comments. I don't go after the agressive person. typically scum watches, waits and doesn't do much else.
I can see you haven't played in a while.
In other words, this is totally, totally wrong. I see overaggressive scum more than I see overaggressive town.
Why did you remember to say this only now? That comment hung there for a pretty long time now. Why didn't you say it was wrong before?
4) Post 235 by Nik and the ensuing discussion is disturbing me quite a bit. He's answering instead of me for things directed specifically at me and defending me. This looks an awful lot like buddying.
It's okay if you're town and think farside's arguments against me are wrong - but I'd expect you to wait for me to answer before saying anything. Otherwise, you're basically handing me a defence. What if I'm scum and these statements by farside would've tripped me and caused me to slip up?
This is very poor scumhunting there.
5)
Wulfy wrote:Side note: pends should be "pings" write[sic]?
1. Um...is this a claim that being angry over details is scummy? Wouldn't then every minamalist who gets angry be scum? This point is pathetic.
2. Wait...so you're suggesting town wouldn't make an attempt to prove they are town? Are you saying town posts would be inherently scummier than scum posts? Why do I see a too townie argument forming...
3-1. Would you please point that double standard out with citations or examples?
4-2. ...Omgus argument doesn't exist...
Nvrmind on 3-1, Farside admitted it, so I have noted that. Her excuse of "not reading back [well enough]" doesn't fly with me.
"pend" is a wrong usage of the verb. Read it as "awaits" - remains hanging until I get down to actually read that meta.
Now, to the point(s).
1. I feel that being overly agitated and annoyed over small and not so significant arguments is scummy. This is partly because I feel one wouldn't normally get so agitated over it, making me feel the agitation might be artificial and not genuine.
2. Town don't generally feel the need to assert their towniness without provocation, and don't implicitly or explicitly say "I'm town, I'm town" when it isn't called for. This isn't a "too towny" argument - far from it. There's a huge difference between "looking very townie" and "consciously trying to look very townie".
Both of these arguments were brought up by me long ago. Where were you?
4-2. I really don't get you people. Do you actually expect sombody with minimal brain to say "OMG you suck you voted for me so I'm gonna vote for you"? When scum want to vote for somebody for reasons which aren't exactly pro-town, they at least try to manufacture arguments to mask their real intention. If scum wouldn't lie and would say their reasons explicitly, life would be much easier. Sadly, they don't. Sometimes they lie. These lies may include them saying they vote someone for certain arguments which aren't, in fact, the real reason for the vote. If I'm scum and I think to myself, "hmm, I need to attack X for evil scummy reasons a, b, c", then I sit down and think "hmm, what arguments can I make up to mask my real reasons?". So, yes, I think it's perfectly valid for me to say that I think farside is doing exactly that. Naturally, it's a matter of interpretation. I think farside is lying. It's a read I get on her.
6) Where did Zazie go? And I'll join the line in wanting to hear why he's voting scien. If he stated a reason, I missed it.
7) Also, farside, you continuing to call what I did "twisting your words" is utterly ridiculous. If you think it's so obvious that you didn't mean what I say you meant - then let the damn thing lie! If it's obvious that I'm full of shit, you don't need to show it to everyone. Everyone will see it for themselves and think "why is ODDin saying farside is lying? It's so obvious she didn't lie. There's no way he could actually think that, he must have consciously fabricated it."
I'm in my right to think you have ulterior motives and hidden messages in your posts, and I'm certainly in my right to think you're lying. Saying over and over again "but I said it meant something else" doesn't change the fact that I think you're lying - I KNOW what you said. That's why I call it a LIE, because I think what you SAY isn't what you REALLY THINK.
I mean, you're not giving any arguments to show you weren't lying. You just keep saying "I didn't lie because I said I didn't lie so that must be true".
8)
farside wrote:I see it this way. I was asked a question, i aswered the question. Another player pulls that answer out and automatically pulls the "look at me I'm aggressive I must be scum/town" comment out which is not the case in my mind all I did was anwser a question asked to me.
As it has been pointed out it could be interputted either way but he is taking the I must be scum approach which I find an interperuptation and not actual scum hunting and hence scummy.
Again, I know it came in the context of answering a question. However, from the way it was worded, it made me feel like you're trying to get a certain point across which wasn't really part of strictly answering the question. This is actually the first thing I thought of when I read that (although you are, of course, free to think I'm lying - and I might be, for all you know, of course.)
Since I thought it was of importance to town to know of such a possibility, I felt it is useful to mention it. Why so? Because if a town player reads it and thinks "no, I think ODDin is wrong here, farside is obviously honest here", then no harm was done. However, there's a possibility that a player would come along and think "hey, I think ODDin is right, it does feel that way, and I didn't see it myself". It isn't, on its own, a terribly strong argument - because I can't, at this point, be sure that you're lying. It's a possibility to keep in mind. And it was important, IMO, for the rest of the town to be aware of the possibility. Knowing a new option is never a bad thing. People were given brains to decide for themselves whether that option is reasonable or not.
Also, I am not taking the "you must be scum approach". I'm taking the "you might be scum for all I know and this here could be a scummy thing to do" approach, which I take for everyone, naturally.
You say it's not scumhunting? Fine. Think so if you wish. In my personal opinion I'm doing quite enough scumhunting here.
9) Once again I would like you to pay attention how farside is making much ado about nothing. The whole issue of me twisting her words is in serious danger of becoming another scien/farside thing (scien/ODDin this time), and I'm not the one to blame for that. She's taking a small thing and runs with it like it's the best argument on earth.
You asked me what pressure votes are good for? This. My vote, made over a relatively weak argument (and for crying out loud, I've admitted to it being weak several times now) led to a huge case on me by farside. Suddenly I'm public enemy number one. I would most certainly expect town to react a LOT more calmly to this.
~ Hayl