Mini 880 - Mini Quick and Dirty - Game Over

[Raskol]

To be fair, I think I can see what people might be hung up on, but I'm not sure I agree that it's voteworthy.

Guess I'll wait and see if it's the same thing PZ is on---or if PZ even has anything at all. That's not to say I'll be sitting on my ass in the meantime.

Speaking of which: I'm glad to hear you bring up scumhunting, SC. Care to do any of your own? As far as I can tell you've mostly been joking around. I think that might indicate a lack of a desire to scumhunt on your part as well =P

[SerialClergyman]

Guess I'll wait and see if it's the same thing PZ is on---or if PZ even has anything at all. That's not to say I'll be sitting on my ass in the meantime.

Congrats on finding a way to say 'I'm awaiting PZ's case with fervour' while still directly addressing my point about scumhunting in the meantime lol

This is me on D1. Hello. I'm not very good at the whole jumping at shadows schtick. Having said that, you'll note I was the one who raised Amished's possible vote hopping, so I'd say I've at least done my share.

[Raskol]

Guess I'll wait and see if it's the same thing PZ is on---or if PZ even has anything at all. That's not to say I'll be sitting on my ass in the meantime.

Congrats on finding a way to say 'I'm awaiting PZ's case with fervour' while still directly addressing my point about scumhunting in the meantime lol

Yeah, that part and the next part were connected. I really do await PZ's case with fervour, but that's not to say that I'm not scumhunting in the meantime, see what I'm saying?

Anyway, could you let me know how the vote-hopping could be scummy? I'm having a hard time thinking of ways it could be. I'd be willing to give you more scumhunting points if you could help me out there.

Also, I would appreciate seeing you at least try to jump at shadows as accurately as you can. D1 isn't easy for anyone, but later days are easier if we all give our best shot at the shtick. I don't like when people make excuses for themselves like that, anyway---it makes me a bit itchy.

[AGar]

@AGar, you, like everyone else in this game, are here because you're good at the game. Troll will let the self-deprecation that has happened already go but not accept any more if it looks like you or anyone else be using it as an excuse for whatever play happens.

I'm just sayin'...

Anyways, the game is kinda goin' slow right now.

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry Raskol, I just don't operate that way on D1. I tend to try to find a couple of people who I wouldn't want to lynch and then be happy to lynch any of the rest. It's how I roll.

And it's not an excuse - it's challenging the idea that those who chase shadows to try to find scum D1 are more pro-town than those who are more realistic about how likely you are to find scum that way. If there's a way to consistently get a significantly better chance of hitting scum than random D1, it eludes me.

As for Amished's play, it's been edgy. He's attacked one target who couldn't defend himself (lurker) and as soon as he materialised he attacked a target where he could share responsibility (joining the wagon). Looks vaugely scummy to me. (but again, scumtells D1 suck)

[Raskol]

I don't mind trying to find a couple of people you don't want to lynch. In fact, I do that too. But if you're trying to convince me that lynching randomly among the rest is the best way to do things, you've got a long way to go and little hope of success. Moreover, even if you could somehow convince me that scumhunting D1 won't help our D1 chances, you'd still need to jump at shadows. Everyone's attempts to find scum (or look like they're trying to) today will be one of the main things we will have to analyze on later days to increase our chances of hitting scum

then

.

IOW, meta-defense fails to convince. Roll differently. =P

[Amished]

I took my vote off of Sando before he "rematerialized", btw. Also, you should know that every vote has it's own responsibility. I expect myself to be responsible with my vote as soon as I get done with my first RVS one; and I feel I have been.

1. AGar = No problems with so far, but /agrees with Troll that you're obviously better than to diss yourself.

3. ekiM = I want to know where your suspicions lie.

4. ODDin = Is ekiM or PZ scummier for their actions so far?

5. Ojanen = still feel better soon.

6. Papa Zito = come back soon

7. Raskol = Thoughts on ... anybody?

8. Sando = Vote

9. Scien = come back soon

10. SerialClergyman = thoughts on anybody but me?

11. VP Baltar = read SC's question

12. Zorblag = From you, I see a lot of "reactions are interesting" type of posting, but it doesn't seem like you're forming an opinion out of it. Your vote is still on Sando for not having posted. What interactions do you think are the most scummy or.. something of your own "put out there" opinion on something.

[BigBear]

Not much has changed since the beginning of the day.The men stared each other down; each pointing fingers, and accusing others of killing the innocent man the night before.

BigBear

yelled,

Hurry up!! You've only got 10 more hours left of daylight!

(Hours in reference to actual days. 1 hour = 1 real life day, 10 days left)

Official Vote Count

SerialCleargyman (2) - Amished, Papa Zito
ekiM (3) - Raskol, oDDin, AGar
AGar (2) - Scien, ekiM
Amished (1) -VP Balter
Sando (2) - SerialCleargyman, Zorblog

Not Voting:

Ojanen, Sando

[SerialClergyman]

I took my vote off of Sando before he "rematerialized", btw.

Point conceded, but it was still going after someone unlikely to defend himself.

I don't have many thoughts about other people, not really enough play has materialised. (I barely think it's worth commenting about you)

Raskol - I disagree fundamentally that you need chasing shadows scumhunting D1 to look for scum on D2. In fact, I think it obscures scum, because chasing shadows is EXACTLY what scum want to do. You can make anyone look scummy in a PBPA, yet people who do this are regarded as protown for no reason. Scum depend on being able to use such scumhunting to both get townies lynched and appear pro-town. And you can use town reads just as well as scum reads to determine alignment.

But in the end, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm telling you how I play the game, irregardless of your demands. If you don't like it and vote me because of it, you're playing badly, or at the very least policy voting someone for a very poor reason. If you disagree, fair enough, get on with the game.

[Amished]

@SC: I explained why I thought that he was scummy in my checking activity/unvote post, but whatever.

Zorblag hasn't voted for anybody that wasn't a lurker/hadn't posted yet. How does that rate compared to me?

[SerialClergyman]

He seems less edgy and is asking better questions.

Why are you pushing this issue? I've been about the most non-threatening person calling out a scumtell ever, constantly qualifying it with my overall concept of the early game being specifically not about finding scumtells and talking about how I think it's barely worth mentioning, yet you've still got a bee in your bonnet about it. What gives?

[Raskol]

Raskol - I disagree fundamentally that you need chasing shadows scumhunting D1 to look for scum on D2. In fact, I think it obscures scum, because chasing shadows is EXACTLY what scum want to do. You can make anyone look scummy in a PBPA, yet people who do this are regarded as protown for no reason. Scum depend on being able to use such scumhunting to both get townies lynched and appear pro-town. And you can use town reads just as well as scum reads to determine alignment.

But in the end, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm telling you how I play the game, irregardless of your demands. If you don't like it and vote me because of it, you're playing badly, or at the very least policy voting someone for a very poor reason. If you disagree, fair enough, get on with the game.

Obviously scum has to pretend to scum hunt in order to get townies lynched, and look protown. The thing is, we have to be better than them and catch them in their fake. Not having people try to scumhunt doesn't make that easier---it makes it harder. If everyone failed to scumhunt D1, there would be nothing to go on, including nothing for you or anyone else to get town reads off of. What else do you suggest people do? Joke around? Do nothing but talk about theory?

IOW, your D1 playstyle, if you're town, relies on a hope that not too many other people will play like you---not a good thing to rely on. It also makes it harder for us to track you if you're scum. Neither is particularly good for town, so do me a favor and contribute to the thread with a real attempt at scumhunting and other alignment-relevant and connection-forming behaviors before we have a lynch. By all means, form your town reads and do what you normally do, p.o.e. and all---just do this on top of it. You may not see a reason to do it, but there is one---it helps the rest of the town track

you

. If you're innocent you have

nothing

little to fear.

[Zorblag]

@Amished, Troll intended to include some opinions beyond simply interesting in Post 90 (i.e. Troll had town reads of varying degrees on Scien and ekiM, weak scum reads at the time for Raskol and AGar and null reads on Amished and Papa Zito.) Since then Raskol has moved back to null and Sando has slipped to a bit scummy as him has posted but not given Troll anything to work with. What beyond that do you be expecting from Troll so far as opinions go? The game be early and Troll still largely be getting a feel for the lay of the land so strong reads be unlikely.

@SerialClergyman, does less edgy imply more likely to be town to you? If not for pushy play at the start what do you expect to lead to better reads as the game progresses?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[SerialClergyman]

Yes, I think less edgy early means more likely to be town. This is from a very basic read as early scum = excited and overly conscious of themselves. Relaxed and settling into a long game = town. But it's vague. Pushy is not the same as edgy though.

I don't expect everyone to play like me and usually people don't. I've adopted a changing playstyle in order to evolve my previously useless D1 play.

Asking what is there to go off is a sillier question than it appears though. How do you scumhunt when there's no information? The RVS plus early votes and early meta opinions - these things will happen even if everyone adopts my playstyle.

In short - there's just as little solid information to go off whether the entire town uses your playstyle or mine.

As for judging me, imagine I was scum using this playstyle. I have to either name my scum mates as town D1 or risk getting them lynched semi-randomly. Plus you'll have my opinion and scumreads as they come. Sorry, but I'm not going to be changing how I play.

[Zorblag]

@SerialClergyman, the edgy question and the pushy question weren't particularly supposed to be related. Edgy was for Amished and Troll; pushy was for SerialClergyman and generic any-players.

Troll tends to think that passive play day one does result in less information for future days. Perhaps passive no be the descriptor you would use to describe your day one strategy but it seems to be the playstyle you be defending. And of course that probably be largely irrelevant to Troll this particular game so long as you express opinions about the play that you see.

Does the experience level in this game change the degree to which the edginess is an indicator for you? Would risking getting scum partners lynched semi-randomly day one really be such a bad thing?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Raskol]

SC, what you don't seem to be getting is that it's partly about

creating

information. You scumhunt to get info so you can scumhunt. It's not at all impossible to out scum on D1, either. I've done it and seen it done, so don't pretend as if it's futile. On top of that, every player leaves behind a trail of attacks and defenses which will allow us to form connections later. It also forces people to adopt positions which they'll be responsible for. Telling us whom you'd rather not lynch helps in that regard, but it isn't enough. Sitting back and refusing to participate in the hunting-voting D1 wagon game until you've got a flip completely destroys all the D1 information that makes that flip useful in the first place.

That's all I'm going to say, though. If you do end up continuing to refuse to scumhunt, I won't try to force you. It will just make me that much more willing to lynch you. I'm not going to vote you for disagreeing with me alone, just letting you know that what you say you're intending to do sounds scummy to me, and it will move you up on my target list.

[SerialClergyman]

I am passive until I find something concrete. I rarely find something concrete on D1, so I'm often passive. That's probably the best way I can describe it.

Yes, the experience of the player involved does impact it, but that applies to any scumtell I think.

I think it would - I generally rarely bus and like to keep my scumteam intact. And even if you had to lose a scum member, you at least want to bus and get some town points for it. In that scenario, you wouldn't even get any town points for losing a partner. I think that a semi-random scum lynch in that manner would be a real hassle for scum.

[Amished]

@SC: I see similarities between situations and I try to understand what you feel is different. If I can get in your head, I can see when something skips a step of logic a bit easier later on. I try to push everything that I catch to a limit to put everyone into a more solid position. Town don't have a problem with backing themselves, while scum want the wiggle room.

Troll tends to think that passive play day one does result in less information for future days.

Perhaps passive no be the descriptor you would use to describe your day one strategy but it seems to be the playstyle you be defending. And of course that probably be largely irrelevant to Troll this particular game so long as you express opinions about the play that you see.

Bolded mine, and what I'm going for.

@Zorblag (is it ok if I call you Troll? It's easier to spell, we Amish haven't invented the printing press yet >_>): I just wanted to get more information out of every player. What you just posted is fine, especially at this point in the game. In fact, better than I expected as what you posted spawned more topic for discussion with the person I'm currently questioning, allowing me to see him in action as a fellow player rather than a moderator.

----

Hmm.

@SC: Who would you classify as pro-town thusfar? Just naming 2-3 is fine.

[SerialClergyman]

Raskol, what you don't seem to be getting is that if I was searching for ridiculous scumtells on day 1 I'd be lying and faking scumhunting, and that doesn't help the town in the least. Generating noise is not the same as generating information.

I'm not excusing myself from scumhunting, I'm excusing myself from giving reads I don't have, or using evidence I don't believe in.

I'm surprised in particular at you because you JUST PLAYED a game with me when I was town when I had a similar approach and you saw that my approach alone picked up 3 people who looked protown which contained the 2 scum. You just saw how the standard play of following the trail of attacks and defences and looking for 'pro-town scumhunting' allowed almost everyone to essentially clear Hoopla and Cyberbob until the claims.

[SerialClergyman]

Amished - fair enough. I usually don't like the overdefensive scumtell but people who go overboard trying to slap down someone's read of them look more concerned about their own safety than doing something more worthwhile, especially this early when there isn't any real danger. But if you're looking for hypocrisy, I'm all for that.

Don't have any town reads atm.

[Amished]

EBWOP: The last line in my paragraph to SC also tends to make me EBWOP a lot too =\ Sorry if the broken-up-ness is distracting.

[Raskol]

No offense, but the approach that's appropriate for D3 is not the same as the approach that's appropriate for D1. Not to mention that the fact that scum can sometimes fool people in no way changes that we have to do the best we can to force them to do things that have the potential to get them caught.

I appreciate you not having any concrete reads at the moment, but you should have to do your part in getting us some concrete things to read!

Your D1 scumhunting doesn't have to be done in full certainty that your target is scum. It should be reasonable based on the evidence you have at the time---if that's not very much, then fine, but you should take the best you currently have to work with and use it like a wedge to split a rock---take a small crack and push into it until you've got a bigger one. It helps

zero

to just stare at it and say you can't do anything because you don't have a big enough crack to work with.

[Amished]

EBWOP (again):

@SC: Mind voting for somebody not out of the RVS then? Or is everybody a null-read to you?

Speaking on overall terms, obviously the majority of the time I'm going to be town. Majority of the people, obviously that'll be the majority of the roles I get and time spent as. So when I'm attacked, especially from a pro-town standpoint, I attack the reasoning because I'm pro-town (or pretending to be, to encompass all situations); so the reasoning can't be that good.

In my attack of their reasoning, it sometimes helps me (though it generally helps other people more (looks at VP's lover's mafia game)) get a read on the motivation of the attacker. Did they misread something and then think of something based on that? Or was it intentional and trying to make something that I did that's pro-town look scummy; which generally comes from scum.

I think the only time I've been lynched has been as scum; so I'm not particularly used to getting attention on me. On the advice of another scummer, I am trying to adjust my playstyle in this area so it's still going through growing pains.

[SerialClergyman]

No offence taken - I'm not saying D3 is the same as D1, I'm saying you in particular know that I have a different playstyle that gets results, and you in particular would know that your conventional approach fails while dealing with good scum players because they do exactly what you're telling me to do - pick at half-tells and language slips. Noone using your methods for sucmhunting as outlined to me now would have made the leap that I made. So I'm happy with my style.

Zzz. I'm aware I don't have to be certain, but I also should be more likely than random.

Nor, as you'll note, am I staring at anything and saying zero. You have a full account of my reads and an open and honest account of what I'm thinking but I refuse and will continue to refuse to make things up to satisfy what you feel should happen on D1.

Amished - fair enough on your reasoning. I've only ever been lynched as town, so I've got the opposite problem . In fact, my playstyle change was done specifically to improve my town play, which started out pretty mediocre while my scum play started very well. I think I now have a playstyle that makes me more likely to get lynched and more likely to catch scum, which is definitely favouring my town play rather than my scum play.

And, in case you couldn't tell by my comments so far, you're not getting a vote on someone because you asked me to.

(It's also worth noting that at the moment there is a bandwagon on me for unspecified purposes and a bunch of people questioning my playstyle and threatening the possibility of easier lynches - none of that is particularly inspiring to my pro-town reads.)

[Amished]

@SC: I just want a stance on you in some way. Scummy or Townie, you've said a lot about yourself, weakly reference people attacking you not helping your town reads; but haven't really taken a stand for/against something other than yourself/theory. It's the early game, we all have the same small amount of information to go on, so we need to get as much information out there as possible. You hanging back like this isn't inspiring to me either.

To clarify more: As scum I've been lynched twice. Once was under Truant when I made an obvious quickhammer to get my team into Lylo without much suspicion on my partner (we ended up winning) and one was under this account in Mafia 92; where I was investigated by sane-cop Ryan. Oh, one more, but that's more cause of Sajin making a great town-gambit; and me being overeager. (Lazy Neighborhood mafia)