Mini 884 - Last Man Standing (Over)

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/confirm

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Vote: pwnz

Drunk on the job, obviously doesn't care about the town. Wagon ho! (but not on ho..)

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Blazing Saddles for me.

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Unvote
Vote: ConfidAnon

Also vote for d3x, and benmage, if I could.

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I don't see the blatant scumminess from Nacho that you all do, apparently, and I view Ecto as a tunneled townie. There you go.

Awww, Vi, vote with me, it's a good vote and there's a bandwagon starting! If you join now, I have sweets

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Right now, Nacho is obviously scummy . . . but not enough so that it warrants a vote from me yet.

Pretty much sums it up. Why would you keep your random vote (that you've now talked about random votes have no meaning); instead of voting for somebody obviously scummy? It's a sure sign of scum not wanting to vote for somebody (buddy, town, either way works; initially leaning towards town).

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Well if you think people doing scummy things doesn't make them scum, why are you voting for anybody ever? What you did was scummy enough to earn a vote.

Let's see, you have your vote on DJ for being jumpy, but since DJ is more jumpy than nacho, DJ gets scum read and Nacho gets town read? Something like that sum up your position? Yeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaahhhh, not buying it.

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<3 u VP. Even with the awful haircut

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Pfft, I'm not a fan.. ANYMORE.

Besides, I'm not you (thank god, I couldn't stand your ugly glasses)

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EBWOP: Also, my 124 isn't a point against Confid (obviously I'll disagree with a fair amount of votes regardless of the voter's alignment); so it's not me pushing his wagon on that point, it's explaining why I won't be hopping on DJ because of CA's posts.

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@VP: You pretty much are always scum....

Catching up tonight.

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Reading through, nm8 looks more town, porkchop (and by extention, ecto) look more scummy due to ecto's bad vote; and porkchop just agreeing with it and not adding anything more to the game at that point (65). Benmage hopping onto the same vote for the same reason makes me think that both PCE and Ben wouldn't be scum together (too obvious), but one is scum almost for sure. I stand by 106 for my views on Ecto.

I like sotty's 68. d3x had been a scum read, but now looks more like 3rd party. Still not exactly somebody I want around.

Nacho needs to take a breather and try to settle this thread down, as there's a lot of noise back and forth without actually going anywhere on that whole end.

Vi is neutral to me, which has me worried. I've been able to read her better in other games than I have here. The rapid vote switching and suspecting everyone doesn't seem like a good setup to the game either.

Scummy posts by player starting after my initial vote (everyone had 1 by then)
Benmage 5 (115, 127, 133, 142 in conjunction with the first part of 133, 165)
d3x
PCE
CA
Vi 3 (128, 146, 172)

d3x is only notable for not *really* attacking anybody (a FoS and an HoS doesn't count) in that period.

CA looks more town that misspoke, as I don't have an issue with anything that he had said since then.

PCE only has 1 post in which a couple tags aren't linking to the right posts, so my opinion on him is TBA.

Benmage couldn't be more scummy if he tried, and Vi is pretty scummy too, in my eyes.

Unvote: CA

Vote: Benmage

I would like to vote for Vi, but I don't see that taking off. Benmage is scummy as well and should be voted for. d3x remains a candidate due to a vague 3rd party read that I don't like to see; especially in a theme game where the theme is set in a place where everyone has a gun.

My vote isn't bolded for a reason. I want to see a votecount first, but it's likely to go there after I see one.

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@Vi: I was the first to actually vote for CA, so good detective work on that one. In that post (93) I also expressed my wish to vote for Benmage, so this isn't a new development. At that point, Benmage didn't have a vote on him either.

For you {Vi}, I'll count my intent to vote for Ben, but not my RVS vote. That makes two people that I've voted for, and two more that I've expressed suspicion upon (d3x and you). I'll now discount your two RVS votes; though with ISO 4 you clearly have more suspicion than just random, so I'll count it then. ISO 5 you vote for Ecto, ISO 7 you say that you wouldn't mind NM8 or DJ lynched (so anti-town at least). ISO 8 you then vote DJ; ISO 9 you vote VP; while also calling PCE, Sotty, CA and me possible scum. 10 you reject that, and defend CA due to your scumreads voting for him. 14 you vote for Sotty. That's 5 votes, with 3 more you wouldn't mind seeing dead/possible scum. I think "you suspect everyone" is a pretty good summation of your actions thusfar in the game as you've accounted for 8 of the 11 other people in that manner.

For d3x, he's acting like I would suspect a 3rd party to act. I didn't expect anybody to be swayed by my post against benmage, I was pointing to why I feel he's scummy, and if anybody wants to question those reasons, we both have a good starting point to work out why I feel he's scum; and I can clarify further instead of having to rehash everything.

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EBWOP: To further clarify my point on d3x: obviously no two people read the game the exact same way. In the way that I read the game, d3x's posting very strongly suggests third party. He could be scum; but either way, he's somebody that I feel should have some heat put on him sooner rather than later. Unfortunately for me, I only have one vote so I can't put the amount of pressure that I like on a person that I'm seriously questioning; and there's two other people that I want to deal with before him at this point.

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I don't have time to respond to everything I'd like to in thread, but the 3rd party thing has come up a couple times and is cause for confusion.

Scum and 3rd party; technically; are both anti-town and both need to be gotten rid of throughout the course of the game. I think benmage and vi are *scummy*; while I think d3x is third-party. The reason I think so, Vi touched upon in 192, and I initially saw Sotty bring up in the first 60 posts or so. The difference that I pick up on is that scum try to push cases (cause they assume that they're the only scumgroup, especially in a mini) while a third party *knows* that there's another faction of some sort out there. Scum therefore have to look to build mislynches; while third-party can actually scumhunt.

The problem with 3rd party scumhunting, is that they know that they're all alone; so have a higher than normal self-preservation mentality. They'll tend to be more fence-sitty and wishywashy than normal (59 is a perfect example of this):

I don't have suspicions as to whether or not your reasons for Voting Ecto were legit, nor did I ever say I did. I asked if you were making a Random Vote or not. I Voted you for deflecting {which you continue to do} and for getting defensive.

To answer your question, I do think that extending the RVS is a bit scummy, so Ecto tips a bit towards the Scum side of my scale. Ecto wasn't the only one doing it, though. And I found your reaction more scummy than those who were trying to extend the RVS.

"don't have suspicions"; "a bit scummy" "tips towards the scum side" are all weak versions of legitimate stances so as to not appear too harsh and get attention because of that.

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Ahh, catching up time:

@Benmage: I'll go through the posts that I saw of yours that were scummy, and why.

115: You explicitly state that you can't condemn people on small things alone. Unfortunately, this is exactly what you do to CA; especially after seeing the reason that all of us had voted for him at the time. You went back and quoted the fact that it was a small thing that we all went against him for, but you decided to vote for him and do exactly what you thought was scummy previously.

127: "wtf" does nothing to express your opinion. I get the feeling you posted it for the sake of posting it (and it was right after I started attacking CA, and DJ attacked CA as well (hrm). It's a post that allows you to say it means whatever you want it to mean, while not advancing the game. Anti-town at best.

133: Terrible WIFOM about scum try to play flawlessly. Everyone tries to play flawlessly as they can. Also, you say that scum are nitpicky as hell. This relates to the CA vote: wouldn't scum be more likely to vote *for* CA for his comment rather than leave it be? Yet who did you suspect, the person who has been nitpicked upon. This does not look like a vote that should come from your perspective and opinion about what makes scum.

142: Terrible reasoning for your vote (especially with my comments towards 133).

165: It's the first part of this where you say you'll have to reread him in ISO. You generally should have an opinion on every player without having to read them; while your comment to reread in ISO sounds like you're gonna go look to see what you can find scummy now that somebody else has expressed suspicion on him.

Also, I *hate hate hate* 201. You should not feel it necessary to rely on another player for your defense. I have also played with you, Ben. So has VP Baltar. There might be others, but VP and I playing with you is something that I've seen directly.

Benmage relying on meta of VP already doesn't get my hopes very high yet either. Looking forward to his "case".

Vote: Benmage

If (when) this wagon gets to L-2; I would like everyone to not vote for him if you think he's the scummiest. I want to try something.

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@Ecto: Yes, he's both scummy and looking for scum. His heightened sense of self preservation is a large part of the former (and also what makes me place him in 3rd party rather than mafia group scum).

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...

Next one: No you cant excuse scummy behavior,

but you cant/shouldnt condemn people on minor things alone;

usually...Things that are all wifom, would scum do this... would town do this etc etc crap like that. I've been in games where buddying, bussing, answering/defending questions geared toward another..things town, scum, just players do..and that was considered a case. Its sort've what I was referencing with that statement.
...

Bolded mine. One line by CA was enough for you to vote for him.

{wtf}If you had been following along, you would know that DJ's 126 is what DJ thought of CA (explaining his vote)

{playing flawlessly}Obviously you're aware of this sort of meta in yourself, so you can subvert it at any time. More WIFOM.

@Sotty: Read the last part of my 206 again. That's the wishy-washy type of comments that I saw in d3x. I think you're .. what was it? "really reaching here" to discredit what I'm seeing. I'd like to know why, ESPECIALLY after you clearly read 206 and my point about d3x's quote.

@Ecto: If he's 3rd party, his scumhunting isn't any better than the rest of ours. Do you think he'll have special knowledge?

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Unvote

Just for the sole reason that when Vi dies, the number to hammer will be reduced. I'll be catching up in a bit; been busy and got some duties to attend to right now.

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@Vi: If the third party is an SK (typical 3rd party; and given flavor, not unreasonable), why would they decide to go after scum if the town will be likely to look for them during the day and try to lynch them? If we can out them and kill them, we prevent one anti-town kill per night, extending the game and gives the scum more of a chance to screw up and get them lynched.

Also, I've not accused d3x of lurking, I simply stated that I thought he was being more passive than I feel a normal townie would be in his statements. His V/LA has never come up in my discussion, nor is it an accusation against him from me.

@Sotty (251) That's exactly what I was looking at when I commented about d3x being 3rd-party.

@Vi (again): How the hell do you get a "transparent" playstyle from d3x? You've said yourself that he's been V/LA; you can't get a read on a player from that.

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Oh come on, DJ is pretty obv town if you really claim to be town-aligned.

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Oh, I dunno, how about rereading your (hypo) town PM and rereading hohum's last post. Also, I believe Vi said she was playing deliberately scummy this game, how did you happen to get a town read on her?

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@Vi: If d3x is SK, then he's a threat to the mafia; and if I can lynch a mafia while also adding another suspect (or even not) then there's a chance that d3x hits mafia, mafia goes after the "other" killing role; two anti-town killing roles dead and three mafia dead in a cycle. Obviously a lot of things have to fall in place, but it's not outlandish. Mafia has always been my priority.

Yes, you *weren't* seen as obvtown; yet MMan saw you as obvtown. I'm wondering why and where did he come to that conclusion.

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@Benmage: *hohum's* post, not MiteyMouse (hiya, great job with the votecounts <3). If you really don't see it; I don't see a reason to not lynch you.

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Ben, wanna toss up that VP meta case?

Unfortunately, I'm agreeing with Ben's vote; VP's activity this game (content, not necessarily number of posts) is awful (both in content and driving the game forward).

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I always screw up BM and MM; you know who I mean.

Lately I was testing the waters to see if I could get support for a d3x lynch (isn't he supposed to be around?). Obviously that's not the case so depending on what he said, I'm looking to shoot him. Obviously if it is 8-3-1 (which, unfortunately is how I'd have to balance it if d3x is third party); I'd like to use the SK's kill as a vig kill by outing him as a possibility and a direct threat. In that case, I get two kills for the price of one; while also not using my own kill during the day that looks like the best course of action.

In fact:

Vote: VP Baltar

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Fine, Bm not BM. You're the only one that could be BM here.

For a matter of reference, Ben, what games are you looking at for both alignments.

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Your 205 suggested to me that you were going to expand on your meta of VP.

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You think I voted for him purely (or even mostly) on meta?

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I'm not *pushing*, I'm explaining where I'm coming from. If you just explain your thoughts in your next couple posts instead of being defensive about this, you might be a bit better off.

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Just point out the highlights that you remember.

Thinking about a new mafia theory sucks

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/me is speechless

I think that's the best post I've ever seen you make, Ben.

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Ben, do you honestly not see what I'm talking about in the PM and *hohum's* post?

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Good, cause I don't want sniping undercurrents to distract from our goal.

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So, Vi: why are you voting for Ecto then?

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CA you're my hero. That's awesome.

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That would also explain why I thought your {CA} one-liner was scummy. I'm way too observant to pick up on non-vanilla =\

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@Vi: I was actually thinking Sotty; but I didn't want to get too distracted

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I think nacho was the early version of CA and you {ben}; an easy target to allow the town to get distracted with. Either way, we have plenty of time and a couple suspects right now to deal with first rather than to get into tertiary suspects.

So, who else is up for lynching VP here and now (or just shooting him and being done with it?)

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How's this for an option: if we can decide who to kill (VP); pwnz or nm8 should shoot for some possible extra confirmation. They haven't really been active lately and I want to hear from them as well.

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*sigh* this is gonna take a while. I'll try to keep it as short as possible, but I can't promise anything.

@PCE: {why pwnz and nm8} Because I haven't seen them for a while, d3x had already posted that he's catching up, you were around and everyone else was as active as they said they'd be (VP being V/LA factors into this).

@VP/Sotty {d3x third party} If there's a third party, d3x is my #1 candidate. I have never pushed against him, nor really put any effort into questioning him directly about it. Reading what he's posted now; he's still likely it. If I had wanted to, it'd be relatively easy to justify the position that we should get rid of a third party and reduce the number of kills that we're up against. However, I've continued to scumhunt despite what I've said the whole game about d3x. This is not the course of action of a scum (Yes, scream WIFOM)

@VP specifically on this point: It was not wild speculation. I'm using the same manner of looking at everyone that EMPTyger used in LOST mafia. The correlations between d3x and Zone are pretty darn high for tone of posting; so it's not wild, nor baseless, nor anything else you really want to say. I call them like I see em; I didn't feel the need to withhold my suspicions about a player if later in the game something points to me being right.

{Benmage's post} (no offense, Bm) I've never seen a post from Ben that was that long and had a single thought and coherent tone throughout. They're often fragmented and kinda all over the place, but with this one he had one purpose and he spoke as concisely as I've ever seen. Sure, attack me for actually congratulating the best put together post I've seen from another player. Also, his post wasn't so much about meta; as what you've done this game. His meta about 91 is weak as I remember that I thought you were protown and active til Vi came and rained on your picnic.

@d3x: It was mainly that post (59? no clue to the accurate number) that stuck in my mind. I can point to some now that further emphasize the point that I would make; but that's not the crux of the issue. Just from that post (probably some others that I saw, but that one in particular) I haven't had a gut-scum read like that since I read one of Rhinox's early posts in cowboy bebop mafia (that was a pretty excellent game, too bad it was slightly broken for the town).

@Sotty: After Vi was shot, the reactions she made made her intensely pro-town. I wasn't impressed with her game before (obviously) but after shooting; I would've fully expected scum to shoot whoever they could in an attempt to bring the town down with her. Therefore, I was happy as hell that a new strong town read not going to die.

I also want to dissuade this line of attacking (mostly cause it's bogus): Before Vi was shot (or around that time, either way, before CA came out as a healer) I had dropped my suspicion of CA. He was neutral-town; and when he healed Vi; he jumped to basically confirmed town in my opinion.

Nacho, d3x: FOCUS. Stop squabbling and weigh in on the matter at hand. You attacking each other is distracting from the major issue here!

@Sotty: I don't expect him to lead the game to victory stomping on scum's heads just cause he can. I expect him to scumhunt (which isn't unreasonable) and I'll show how he's failed to meet that criterion. My question to you about why I'm voting for VP was to see what you thought it was. Here's a hint:

Unfortunately, I'm agreeing with Ben's vote; VP's activity this game (content, not necessarily number of posts) is awful (both in content and driving the game forward).

I specifically mention his content twice; and the lack of driving the game forward does not equate to OMG FIND SCUM NAO OR I SHOOT U!. Lack of driving the game forward is asking questions, trying to find out alignments, actually doing stuff when he's around.

Apparently, I'm being voted for thinking that benmage is becoming a better player, having somebody remain alive for the day that I finally have a town read on, getting a solid town read out of it because of the healing, and not stating my full case when I voted when not questioned about it at the time. (hint: most/all are terrible reasons)

@Vi: Your play really confuses me

Finally, I want to point out that I was the one that helped to figure out why dj should almost certainly be considered obvtown based on non-WIFOM data.

When it's not midnight; I'll address VP and Benmage's posts.

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@Ben: I think you're getting worked up over not much; CA is somewhat spurring you on for an emotional reaction (from my POV). While useful in theory; I believe your reactions have been town ("Am I talking to a brick wall?" tone); and this should stop between two people I believe to be town right now.

@Sotty: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12011 I would caution against actually reading the thread unless you want to beat your brains out; VP can attest to that as well. If you want to; single out ZONEACE (SK) and EMPTyger (Psychiatrist). In post game notes; EMP states that he though ZA was SK after D1; it was just a small secondguessing that made EMP not pick Zone.

Also, no, you still are trying to twist my vote around to your own reasons. I don't care the number of his posts (quality over quantity; though if both, double great) which render his V/LA null (which it rightfully is). When he was here; he was not scumhunting (or townhunting, or really doing anything that would help him as town); while still voting for what happened to be large/growing wagons (which are two very different things).

I'm for trying to go nightless; but I will be V/LA (out of the country, so no access at all most likely) from the 30th til the 8th of December.

I should just shoot VP to prove myself right.

Luckily, we have another candidate; and I don't disagree with anything that Vi has said against Ecto.

Unvote
Vote: Ectomancer

I do not want to let my VP point go; but as there's not much support for it; I need to actually help move the game forward by getting some votes put together.

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@Ecto: Regardless of his alignment; he could be bussing you just as easily. Nice try.

Also, have I ever hinted that I didn't like your questioning my motives for 3rd party? Shit no. Also, it was a valiant effort to try to say that Vi doesn't have a case on you; but I'd suggest that you read all of her posts. Why did you shoot her again? For information? OKAY SCUM.

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@Mod: I will be going on Vacation between the 30th of November and the 8th of December. If that's too long of a break, I understand being replaced and I'm sorry for the hassle that it puts you through. Obviously I'd like to stay in the game with these people

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Oh, you mean how you've basically taken a stance on nothing, and clearly don't take votes on you seriously?

Pay no attention to the Ectomancer trying to distract the Town from playing Mafia from the very beginning.

In the post before where she first votes you.

Ectomancer - There's trying to end the RVS, and then there's completely sidetracking the discussion.

In the next one (which both says that you're not adding to the discussion; and actively distracting the town. Both of which I do agree with.

Less agreeing with what other people have been saying, more taking stances.

How about this line when Vi voted for you again? Not a point against you?

...Ectomancer has done even less for scumhunting, please do me a flavor and kill Ectomancer.

Not an accusation towards you either, eh?

The majority of your content is you defending yourself when you've barely come under any pressure. Other than you taking a stance against NM8 (probably the town Pinata early on); your 19 where you have to directly respond to Vi asking you about another player (with 20 taking away the backing to it immediately) and questioning me; I'm failing to see what you've done for the game.

If your accusation that OMGUS is the crux of my argument; I might've actually attacked all of Vi, Sotty, CA, d3x and you (from memory) *for that reason*. Instead; I've not confronted any of those five people about questioning me about my 3rd party accusations; as it's legitimate to question something that you might not see or understand. Seriously, show me where I attacked you, or anybody for that matter, *for questioning my "I see d3x as third party"* position.

Also, I'm not sticking *my* neck out? Really? Really really? Cause me being the first to vote for CA; 2nd to vote for VP; the only one to really attack Vi at length; and me saying that I suspect somebody being 3rd party is me hiding in my shell not sticking my neck out. Do you even have a point anymore?

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lol ok. I'm flat out accusing you of active lurking because you're not actually contributing to the game. Your shot wasted a heal of a power role. If you actually want her dead, make a fucking case. DJ at least explained why he shot Vi.

On that note, why did you shoot Vi?

@Benmage: I'm gonna be in another country; so very away.

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I read your {ecto's} first post, and about 3 sections of your 2nd; and I see at least 3 glaring mistakes.

Also, vote-hopping is not inherently scummy. Provide motivation more than picking up on the surface if you're gonna convince anybody.

@Benmage: Yeah, I know 8 days is a long time; that's why I wanted to warn Hohum/Mitey sooner rather than later (this snuck up on me, time flew waiting to travel ). I'll be around til I leave at least.

Random question: Ecto, why didn't you bring any of this up when I was voting Vi before DJ shot him? Why now instead of you seeing she's more widely read?

Also, I have confidence in Benmage to not shoot dj mostly cause of in game flavor. I'm pretty sure that just slipped his mind (I've seen Ben forget some little things from time to time).

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Hey there, just came back from Germany; gotta unpack and do all that fun stuff. I will catch up, I'm super sorry for my absence and I hope to make it up to all of you when I can catch up.

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Unvote
Vote: Sotty

Saw some buddying, (looks at Sotty's scumlist, especially recently) and the case against me was obviously bogus; and Sotty agreeing with it rather blindly is a big indicator for me.

DJ's quick unvote when Ecto re-fakeclaimed pinged my scumdar, not sure how to reconcile that with the wounding of Vi before. VP falls into this category as well; but I've been getting better vibes (which is actually a bad sign for VP) from him lately. DJ's been pretty blatant with his buddying of Ecto; still working on that as well. Don't think scum would be that obvious, and the shooting for wounding after Ecto is proven to be a "cowboy" with no modifiers makes me think that the wounding is from town.

There are a lot of little things that make a lot of the actives seem like they should be town; so I'm all for going after a lurker. NM8 shooting ecto with the fakeclaim makes him look good, so who's the replacement for d3x? That's my current #2 that I don't have any major points to make myself doubt their alignment.

1:36, and needing to go to bed. I should have time tomorrow to be a bit more detailed if needed.

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What do you disagree with WRT the wounding coming from town? It's been my thought all along that the mafia would be good at using guns. Vi "instantly" dying after Ecto shot her seemed to support it.

For Sotty, I do see her as scum. Obviously I know that the case against me is bogus; and at the height of the "suspicion" against me or whatever you want to call it. To agree with such a weak case (by Ecto), while also putting Ecto at #2 (end of ISO 26). This was a major point that I saw in my brief readthrough last night. The only way both of us being scum makes sense is if Ecto is bussing me. Obviously I know that's not the case, but I didn't see any reasoning from Sotty that that was the case. Personal example: in the recently finished Twitter Mafia (Hi Cobalt) I put both my partners as #2-3 on my suspect list in various stages in the game. Obviously I wanted to keep them around, but should the need arise to bus them; it wouldn't look suspicious.

Being on V/LA should not really affect what I have done in anybody's eyes since my actions are still my actions. Since I've been gone, she's not really shown continued suspicion of what she didn't like about me (namely, the "emotional" response).

Her twisting of my vote on you {VP} in 26 is really bad enough that I wouldn't expect it to come from town. 28 is amazingly weak: she {Sotty} had Ecto as #2 in suspicion, then said that the shot was horrible (in 27). She then makes excuses for Ecto shooting so that she {Sotty} wouldn't have to upgrade Ecto to above me in her suspicion list. (Clearly, cause I'm still the one she would shoot in 31).

In 35, she says that Ecto is reaching "just a tad" (exact quote) but it's worth it to jump Ecto over me in Sotty's list. I don't see how Sotty really explained why anything she said in 35 made Ecto scum, just points against logic instead of questioning about it. Top of 36, she goes back to semi-defending Ecto again. It's just stuff like this that alerted me that Sotty easily could be Ecto's partner. I mentioned it a while ago too (when Vi asked for who was the third of Ecto and ??? (can't remember off the top of my head) I said Sotty and dj said I was reading his mind). So it's not just an isolated incident; but it does come from a full game view.

VP, glad you got this avatar back, definitely fits you. I hate being jet-lagged

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I see. That's just where I was coming from with my POV. I'm not saying that townies can't have strong shots, but I don't believe Mafia to have "weak" shots. Kinda like a miller of sorts if you're town.

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I have a WC as well. You're full of crap, and dj's vote of VP is even more unlikely to be valid for the "wincon" reason. How about you actually scumhunt instead of thinking that hohum is an idiot and his game could be broken by something that you couldn't even confirm.

If you don't have a wincon (which now that I look at my PM it's pretty unlikely), get back out of the game as you don't even know what you're trying to do. PM the mod and get back to us.

Sotty, I'll get the errors to you tonight, I gotta bowl.

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@Sotty: I'll get to you and the mistakes that you agreed with. Don't know why I'm bothering since Ecto is dead and *confirmed scum*, but I will.

@VP: I looked back over your (relatively) recent posts, and I haven't seen anything that you said that would make you suspect d3x/PCE other than they were lurking. You can't deny that they're consummately easy targets, and you haven't really said much against them. What I see from you is that Cobalt/deadline got you into a sticky situation and you didn't know how to act.

(/me points to the ... "fear mongering" (not the term I'd want to use) about how if I was dead we might be close to lylo/mylo and the vote for no-lynch. Specifically the close to lylo BS I've used as scum (and only as scum) without actually checking.)

However, I have faith in hohum's modding (though not his activity at times) and that I would very much assume that they have a vanilla claim or whatever they wanted; and pm quoting/usage can't really clear anybody. Also, the shooting could have a random element to it (somewhat supported by the wounding/gutshot/missing that's happened thusfar) so dj could just be an initiate cowboy or missed. As such, dj's initial shot of Vi was for bad reasons; and now that we have ecto flipping scum (and Vi attacking both E and DJ at the time) I can see some scum motivation for killing a partner (with E/DJ part of the scumteam).

Also, we need a lynch.

Unvote
Vote: don_johnson[/b

Bolding is messed up on purpose; I want dj to claim today. If he doesn't; this is definitely where it's going.

[Amished]

... Did you lose your memory VP? DJ and I were basically the only two suspicious of her yesterday; and dj's dead now. Also, you know better than to speculate about *one night kill*.

None of this adds up, and if it wasn't 2:30 in the morning, I'd expand upon this and my point about yesterday. In the morning!

Vote: VP Baltar

You really always are scum when I'm town, aren't you? Though, if so this is the first time you haven't killed me N1; so we're making progress!

[Amished]

VP: I will get to you later, but if you know what I mean, I caught something.

Also, your response to me was not indicative of alignment at all. Ecto was already shot (so is Nacho town automatically too? Apparently not as much as you want us to believe. CA/Cobalt even healed somebody that was town, does that automatically make them town too? Your response is not a defense.

Vote: Jazzmyn

No, this is not for vigging me that one time a long time ago.

[Amished]

Unvote
Vote: Jazzmyn

[Amished]

Not much time here:

@VP: if you give a reason why you say you're not scum, it doesn't really matter if there was an attack or not, you're defending yourself.

@everyone: sorry for my contribution this past week, my Grandma died last sunday night; and work has been picking up. Bowling tonight even =\

@Cobalt: looks like you need to get a better read on the game.

[Amished]

@nm8: If you don't agree with my votes, do you at least agree in principle (obviously not the explanation (yet, see the rest of this post)) with the vote on Jazz?

@Porkchop: My "case" against Jazz/d3x is not entirely the same as yesterday. If it were, I would've opened up voting for that slot. However, I have a pretty reliable tell that Jazz did in her first post that, combined with my thoughts on d3x, make her the best place to put my vote on right now.

With regards to Jazzmyn: You all know my thoughts on d3x; his style of writing and stance towards other players looked scummy for reasons I've already outlined. But Jazzmyn triggered a tell of mine that I don't think very many people really know about.

First, I want to ask you all a question: When you replace in and see that you have a town (pr or vanilla, doesn't matter) role in a game, what's your first priority? To try to find scum, right? That's the main point of being town, to find scum. However, if you had a scum PM, your first instinct is self-preservation, and how you appear to the rest of the town because ultimately you have to blend in to fulfill your win condition.

This leads to a subtle, but very distinct difference. As scum, you look over your predicessor to try to find a way to defend yourself if you're in hot water, but if you're town you immediately try to find scum.

In Jazz's very first line, she mentions her predicessors activity. There are a multitude of reasons for being replaced: have too many games and this was the last one joined, you're quitting MS, don't have time for any games due to a change in location, whatever. But Jazz mentioned that it was because of low activity. The only way to really know that is to look at d3x's posts. To make that your initial priority SCREAMS scum, as there really isn't a motivation to do that as town due to a very simple fact: you know your playerslot is town. You understand that their reads could be right or wrong, just as each of us are right and wrong on different topics. But you *know* that it was all done in good faith with the best of intentions. You don't have to cover up for anything as everything your playerslot has done is ultimately pro-town.

So, who (the metaphorical) you look at *first* speaks volumes about your alignment. I've only thought about it as scum (and have done it); Scien, ABR and a couple other people I've seen do it only as scum. There are hundreds of town replacements, and I've yet to see a single one really make an effort to try to defend themselves before they've started to come under attack. Yes, if somebody else brings up a topic of a predicessor, then they'll answer for it, but if you try to make excuses for yourself (in terms of being scummy previously rather than activity later on) then you're scum.

I'm very willing to shoot Jazzmyn right here and right now based purely on that. My initial read on d3x is just icing on the cake.

This was a pretty long post, and I have shit to do. I want this out there right here and now, and I don't want to distract from the message of this post. PCE, this means I'll defend myself from a scum case against me that a townie agreed with tomorrow night, boy scout's honor.

[Amished]

VP, that's exactly what I was thinking. (about the drawing out scum), ESPECIALLY since *nobody* posted in the period between Jazz shooting Cobalt and Vi posting that Cobalt wasn't even wounded.

@Jazzmyn's case (which I shouldn't answer anyways as she's obvscum now)(btw, I love how two scum have now presented a case against me and I still have to defend myself, but whatever): I've explained why I thought d3x was thirdparty (scum at least) and supported it with evidence from another game.

Also, since I've accused Vi of accusing too many people, we'll wait to see how Vi flips to see if it's a solid scumtell. OH WAIT, it's not really valid, proven by this thread. I don't even really care what I've said to suspect them, but in this game alone it's a null-tell at best to put against somebody in a case.

Pwnz has been a combo of things, more scummy other people and a disinterested townie. The *hic thing made me suspect something of a post restriction; but that's not indicative of alignment in and of itself. If he tried to claim vanilla, I would've called him out on it, but as he hadn't; that's even better as he's proven me right.

Also, we can play a fun little game about why d3x had to be replaced: Cobalt, when you got your replacement PM, did the moderator tell you why CA had to be replaced? To extend this to anybody else, especially if you've replaced into a Vi game, has she (or any mod) ever told you why the person you were replacing needed to be replaced? I've replaced into tons of games, and I've never heard a reason from a mod, they're just happy to get more activity. As a mod, having to replace 90% of my game, I've never even considered telling the person why I needed them to replace in. Mostly because I don't know what's going through the head of the person replacing out unless they request it; which pretty obviously didn't happen in this game.

As I understand it, we want PCE to shoot for ... what reasons? I especially don't understand this from you, VP, as IIRC you've claimed to have a "strong" shot and we've proven that townies can have weak shots. With Jazz being this outed, shooting her now is a nulltell; and from your perspective town should be able to either have strong or weak. Doing so only outs a PR of some sort if it's not weak; which is something I'm not comfortable doing. I'd rather scumhunt rather than rely on moderator flavor.

Shoot: Jazzmyn

For those wondering about my "tell" about replacees looking at their predicessors, here's my experience with it:

Me, how I first say that I would've lynched my predecessor as scum
ABR calling his predecessor "pretty fucking weird" as scum
Scien, first says that he wonders if he's under suspicion or not in 217, then go down to 223; where he really slams Hamburger (as scum)

For what I had against Ecto (from what little I read the first time through when I commented on the errors, page 18, post 435). Vi did participate in the RVS (voted Benmage for not being a real mage (which I agree with >_>)) which E hammers for a couple of paragraphs. Vi misreading another player's intentions (nm8 when he said he had a serious vote but not really) isn't really all that good of a point either. Also, Vi had been contributing. Part of it was calling out other players, but Vi did more than that, especially with her vote putting pressure on people and giving reasons, explaining herself when asked, etc.. Misrepresents a Vi comment to say that he's actually doing something. I don't recognize the rest of the post, so I think that's as far as I had gotten.

[Amished]

Oh, scum is floundering in another game with the replacee tell, and Jazz here.

[Amished]

@PCE: I'm pretty sure I saw VPB say that he doesn't intend to miss or anything with a shot, so I wanted to point out the hypocrisy of him demanding a shot from another person. *IF* (and it's a big if, I tend to wish I had another bullet) he's (VPB) town; and doesn't think he'll miss; then why would he have any reason to really think that the status of Jazzmyn (wounded, outright dead) would be indicative of alignment at all. I do not know what is out there, nor do I care to speculate (setup speculation has always gotten me into trouble by assuming something that's not right and then going forward on those assumptions). I've mentioned before that I respect hohum's set-up making ability and I doubt that this game would be broken like that. I believe VP (I have to check, I'm not sure on this point) has also commented on the fact that he doesn't think that the setup can be broken by people shooting each other (when dj wounded Vi).

Regarding a last suspect, didn't Ecto kinda go against Nacho? It depends on the flip (really heavily), but I don't think that both scum would be against their buddies; especially after Ecto got shot D1 already. This requires checking too, so I'm not as positive as I would normally be on this point.

For a last scumbag, I'd still lean towards VP. Benmage I keep going back and forth on; which I don't like. I read him both ways when I go back to check facts. Third would be PCE; nm8 isn't a top candidate of mine.

[Amished]

Hmm, I just took a look at the votecounts; and when we were about to string up Ecto; VP was the competing wagon. As of right now, this is his/your saving grace in my eyes as I don't think we're good enough to get two scum raised up to almost lynch worthy.

PCE didn't look any better with my first look at them; and ben was absent (voting somebody else randomly) just from what I remember. Both become my top suspect, and I need to look over both of them again before really committing to one or the other.

NM8 does look like a lazy target though, VP and PCE: I want each of you to summarize in 3 paragraphs or less why you think he's scum.

[Amished]

Errr, I meant Cobalt instead of PCE with the nm8 thing; I confused the two of you on the last page which is what I was basing my questioning on.

[Amished]

I'll agree only if either I get to choose the order or we do it popcorn.

[Amished]

VP and PCE

(meant cobalt)

: I want each of you to summarize in 3 paragraphs or less why you think he's scum.

[Amished]

You're treading on thin ice VP. The only reason I'm trusting you *on this issue* is that whenever I read a game of yours and think you're scummy, you end up being town; while if I think you're town, you end up being scum.

[Amished]

It better :glare:

[Amished]

Yeah, it's just a matter of if your word is truthful or not.

[Amished]

VP: if Nacho goes first, would you be willing to go right after him?

[Amished]

@VP: Yeah, I know that's the point of popcorn, but I'm trying to discern your intention before it starts so I can make a better decision about who I want to pick to go first.

[Amished]

I shoulda figured that out -_-

[Amished]

I never really look for Masons. I don't play with them that often nor see them really outside of large games that I pay attention. It was going through my head that there was a strong shot neighbor couple, but then I didn't really think to pair it with a marshal as they usually worked alone IRL.

Ecto only wounded Vi as well as a Cowboy >_>

[Amished]

Hopefully we won't have to think about them and one is scum and ends the game...

[Amished]

Well, that read was right...

[Amished]

That was a pretty clever fake claim, Ben. If you posted like you did when I praised you more consistently, you might do better off than you have been.

I tried to be a bit all over the place this game; but I was happy with my first real post of the game saying that Ben and d3x/Jazz should both be lynched (nevermind CA/Cobalt...) I should really just skip the first 10 pages and go with my read from there and screw the rest of the game...

[Amished]

Indeed. I still don't see how scum were balanced in this setup.. I don't care what Ben has for powers, unless he can triple dayvig >_>

[Amished]

It's not me, I'm just vanilla.

[Amished]

PCE inv. immune SK? The way Ben was talking makes it have to be a solo person as their faction is wiped out.

Tracker third party doesn't make sense, and I wouldn't trust a drunk with a gun (nor would he probably have the money to buy one; if going on flavor). Healer doesn't make sense as being solo; neither does a mason cop. There's no way to balance that without having inv. immune somewhere or a miller-dom or something. I'll hop on my own lynch only if PCE goes tomorrow. It has to be one of us two, and since it's not me, I'll still win if you three (two if he NK's) lynch him tomorrow. I don't see how we don't have a lynch to waste; so if you want to assuage your minds by having me die, whatever.

[Amished]

Like I said, if we leave our PR's alive, they're gonna trip up somewhere if they're scum. As PCE is so far the only non-PR claim from my PoV, he should be first to go. We really should have this one wrapped up.

[Amished]

Like I said, lynch me if you lynch PCE tomorrow. Honestly I don't see a way that anybody other than town can win.

[Amished]

Good, I'm great with those barns!

Anyways; I know that Sotty didn't have anything on me that I couldn't defend against. I didn't catch a PR tell or I wouldn't have gone after her yesterday during the day either. The only person I'm really worried about is you, VP. You would've been my target; and if I wanted to try to play off as a vig if it came to claiming; you would've kept my claim believable with my suspicion of you pretty much throughout the game.

As an aside, I think one of the reasons (probably the main reason, but I didn't really catch on at the time) I thought Sotty was suspicious was because she kinda chainsaw'd for you on me. That reinforces the connection between you two (for me); and you're completely off the table.

I still think we need to go to night since we have a claimed tracker, claimed healer/doc/thing and a claimed Cop. If we can't get information out of that and possibly get a WIFOM heal (really a 50/50 shot, well, 33% if Cobalt can self heal; but can work if it's pwnz that's guilty).

You can't deny that investigation immune (and possibly NK immune) wouldn't give an SK a decent shot to win. Obviously PCE is the best lynch from my perspective but I realize I haven't played the best this game (outside my initial read post where I got 2/3 cowboys) so if you need to lynch me to assuage your suspicions, I get that.

[Amished]

Yeah, and I'd be more concerned with my own survival. As long as I win I don't care if I'm lynched right now after our success getting cowboys. Also, if you think that my after ben gave up reactions weren't genuine as I thought the game was over, there's not much I can do about that.

Question: Why'd you two decide to investigate PCE last night?

I don't see how we can't win; no-lynch or lynch. A lynch reduces targets for overnight for our PR's, allowing them a better chance of success/reduces possibilities to fake a result. VP, you and I are the two really trying to coordinate this. This makes me worried, but I have no idea why our claimed PR's would have any reason to be on their own.

Also, with Ben's end of game speech; and pwnz having the result on Jazz; we know he's who he claims he is. Cobalt can heal, and what's the point of a SK doctor? Hannibal Lecter wasn't around at that time He can be wounded, which makes him not un-nkable; which I'd expect as well. The Sotty/VP connection is too strong; so it has to be PCE from my POV. I know that you have an investigation innocent on him, but we don't know if you were/are insane or if he's investigation immune.

[Amished]

Go for it. Turned out he was just scum and didn't want suspicion on himself, but whatever. Looked more self-preservation than being proactive knowing that he had backup; but obviously not every scum plays the same way.

[Amished]

Both got an investigation? Yeah, there has to be something up with your results. Either Naive, Insane, something. Two cops, masoned, with doc heals? With the flavor, the game probably wasn't going to go too long to be able to test out your sanity either.

[Amished]

I think we should still narrow down the suspects; even if it's me. I realize I'm a distraction for two people I view to be pro-town (now) due to the random lyncher speculation. I know if I'm tracked or investigated, it's a wasted one. I would prefer to lynch PCE right here and now and probably win the game due to that; but if we can narrow down the focus of our claimed PR's; we have more chance to hit scum. Then if you decide to NL tomorrow (without shooting), you're still in a position to not worry about a single NK (4 people alive, NL, a NK is still only 3).

So I'm lobbying for either PCE (obviously, to win the game AFAICT) or me (to reduce suspects for the rest of you as PRs).

.... I just thought of something. If pwnz tracks VP, VP investigates Cobalt, and Cobalt heals pwnz; you can all pretty much confirm each other. Oh shit, unless PCE kills Cobalt to frame VP. Hrmph. If that's the case, then VP and PCE can shoot each other, no healer, both would die and pwnz (confirmed tracker) lives and wins for the town?

Unless there's something I'm missing?

[Amished]

The *only* problem with my plan that I see is if you don't trust pwnz. With the Jazz track; that's pretty solid IMO. As I think he's the most confirmable to really be pro-town with what he's claimed, that's ideal.

I'm lynched, so that takes me out of it (or PCE is lynched which obviously is better from my own POV, and then you can switch me for PCE later).

I'm gonna go through each scenario, and see that we do have this wrapped up (please, if you see holes, poke them so we know. I'm also disregarding pwnz-scum)

If VP scum: pwnz tracks him and is protected by cobalt. pwnz sees that vp targets somebody and if the targetee dies, vp gets shot by the other guy (PCE/Me). If pwnz sees that VP doesn't target anybody; if nobody dies then VP isn't pro-town as he didn't use his claimed power which he would if he were pro-town.

If Cobalt scum: VP gets (hopefully) a different result than from PCE and we can have whoever's left shoot cobalt. VP being naive is the problem with this. If cobalt kills VP, we're down to only 1 gun left (pwnz doesn't have one? right?) which is in PCE's hands. He can then shoot Cobalt and win for the town. (potential problem:) If PCE is scum and shoots VP overnight, then pwnz is left with the 50% chance. PCE won't shoot either of them as he'd be outed as scum and they'd have the 2 person majority to lynch him while one is wounded (if PCE-scum has a strong shot; this is a problem. Another reason to leave me alive rather than PCE as I have a confirmed weak shot while PCE only followed up my shot on Jazz which has so far only immediately killed them by being shot a 2nd time.)

If PCE scum: pwnz is still alive, knows that he's town; VP is town (if not killed) and then goes for the lynch of PCE. The obvious target for all of this is VP dying; and I'm trying to work through how to us still win if he's NK'd which he's sure to be as town.

Hmm, what happens if pwnz just tracks VP to make sure; VP can investigate whoever, and Cobalt gets into wifom with PCE about who to kill?

One more question/point: If we lynch PCE; that helps to confirm VP's status. We know he has an innocent on PCE. If PCE is inv. immune scum; then we've lynched scum and win. If PCE is town; we've narrowed it down to VP being naive or having true results. Then we can go into some sort of cohesive night plan. With this many PR's left; we have to be able to break this end game without taking chance into it.

[Amished]

tl; dr version:

Lynching PCE solves a lot of problems, but we need a good plan for tonight if we have a fake-claiming PR (which is nigh-impossible for pwnz, IMO).

[Amished]

... if Lyncher isn't factional, why are you on me for a top pick lynch? I thought that was your main complaint against me?

[Amished]

Thanks Zor! <3

I was thinking that i had it backward. we really should have a confirmable shot tomorroe and that really only happens if VP and i/PCE are alive. That means i have it reversed (i think0 wherecob protectds vps and pwns tracks cob. thta allows fr the same confirmation though each of o you and allow s confirmation of a doc and cop.

thanks again zor! <32

damn tryinf to confuse me while i celebrate eve ofchrismas eve!

[Amished]

shush cob

[Amished]

I'm trying, I didn't say I'd succeed...

I'm thinking that we need to have another gun make it to tomorrow (in the case of PCE scum). Which is why we should have it reversed. pwnz tracks cobalt healing VP. Confirms Cobalt, VP stays alive and gets an investigation on whoever he wants; and we keep a gun alive as pwnz nor cobalt can shoot (can only lynch; which is fine for what we need)

Do you see any problems with this?

[Amished]

Whatever, you can all figure your own shit out apparently rather than actually think of a way to break the game at this point.

If VP is scum, don't say I didn't tell you so. He doesn't have a case against me anymore. At least not one that wouldn't apply to anything investigation immune.

Vote: Amished

[Amished]

Yeah, and I don't care that you're not inputting at all to try to figure out how to win the game when lynching me will not accomplish it. So what the fuck ever, lynch me and figure it out on your own.

[Amished]

@PCE: Vote me then. I'm trying to make sure that I'm not wrong that it's between us. I obviously don't know what hohum had in mind exactly when he made the setup; a sk-cop mason would be extremely imbalanced. You can't deny that I've had suspicions of VP for a long time. When he made what I thought to be a lazy play without justification or thought about if he was wrong/useless before; I thought it was bad town or scum. I also think that having two cops is pretty imbalanced, especially with a healer, but that's not up to me and up to the mod depending on information I don't have and can't really garner right now as it's information that I can't really 100% trust.

I've been talking basically to myself trying to find a way to minimize errors. It's like Golf: you shoot for the hole, but if you miss, you wanna make a small miss so it doesn't really hurt you.

I want any solution that we come up with. The only problem that I see with a NL is that if I'm wrong and PCE isn't scum; with the NK we're left with 4; and PCE/me cross shooting would lose the game instantly. If we could all coordinate; and pwnz lives I think there's a way to shoot in a circle and vote/lynch for the last person while dying/wounded to make sure he's alive; that might work too. I have no idea how wounding and night interacts; and we have no way to test that either.

But, don't get mad at me when the plan is to lynch me and then we have no plan; cause I know that lynching me will not end the game.

[Amished]

And if Cobalt protects you {VP}; then pwnz (our admitted most powerful night action at this point) is free to be killed.

[Amished]

Unvote
Vote: No Lynch

[Amished]

This is way too easy... I'll be around tomorrow to shoot PCE like I promised.

@pwnz, what was your result?

It still seems like VP is setting us all up...

[Amished]

VP: Is pwnz 100% confirmed town *to you*?

[Amished]

Also, what was your investigation result last night?

What i'm thinking is if we can all trust pwnz, I shoot VP and VP shoots PCE.

That way *only* if pwnz is scum we lose, right?

[Amished]

If VP is scum, don't say I never told you so.

Shoot: pwnz

I really don't want to do this.

I'm not scum, so you deal with VP Crazy-Sheriff in a neighbor (or scum mason) pair if pwnz isn't scum (which I don't see why pwnz would be with a correct track on Jazzmyn/d3x; though I can see the argument that he was hoping to be cleared and benmage was playing a ruse and there's a 4 person scumteam?)

Whatever. You have fun with your plans.

[Amished]

Thanks Vi

I told you I wasn't scum...

VP, you continue to look scummy as hell when you're town.

PCE's reaction on ... Day 3? looked hella town which is why I didn't want to shoot him. It was between VP and pwnz then; but I kept going back to "VP looks scummy, he's town" meta. You're the *only* person I have a solid meta like that on; seriously. It's really weird.

Going back to my point about the end of D1 when you {VP} suggested no-lynch: It looked like you wanted to appear pro-town by leading us around. When you suggested a no-lynch; it seemed like you wanted to not risk having a leading wagon on scum go through so that you're stronger for the next day.

pwnz not contributing vs. VP scummy when town; I had to go for the lurker... *sigh*

At least I won; and I'll take this is as one of my better town games for the sole reason that I shot 2 scum, and was gonna lynch the last 2 (pretty sure I had votes on Benmage and Ecto when they were shot...) I also wasn't NK'd, which was hella rare. Though only two nights, and two kills (second kill being a doc). Go me!

Slowly working on getting scummier without getting lynched, though I swung to too far scummy with getting shot =\ At least I have something to work towards

[Amished]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Cobalt

VP, What did you not understand me coming up with? (Unfortunately) I remember most of what happened this game... Now that you know I'm town, I can maybe clue you into what I was thinking..

[Amished]

No rush, obviously the game is over

[Amished]

Don't worry Jazz, it was the tell I got from you that had me convinced <3

Yeah, I'm glad I got the feeling that I was being played (and that PCE was town on the last day) to shoot you {pwnz}.

I think the thing that tipped me off the most was you {pwnz} not weighing in like at all when I was calling you confirmed town. I thought that you would've tried to figure something out rather than half expecting to be protected or something...

I hate the meta I have for VP so so so much. How do you not attack somebody that you find scummy; yet attack somebody that you feel to be town? *sigh*