Newbie 855 (Game over)

[foilist13]

@CthulhuDreams - What are your thoughts on SaintKerrigan? Since he replaced in I haven't seen any real scrutiny here, but I don't have time right now to go take a good look, and you seem more objective than most players.

As you guys know from my avatar it's my birthday today and I don't have time to really be playing, but I hate lurkers so I'm making sure I get a post in.

@Saint - What I said about socrates was that his posts were less frequent than Zhero or Alduskkel, but they had more content. Enough so that I though he was legitimately scumhunting rather than Alduskkel who said earlier that he just has a town read on everyone.

@Y - How arrogant of scum would I have to be to narrow the list of possible suspects to three, myself being one of them, when I came within an inch of being lynched yesterday? Think about that. Does that sound like a town player scumhunting, or a scum player blatantly taking absurd risks?

[CthulhuDreams]

Extremely aggressive player in meta and in here! Moving you to L-1 is a characteristic example of this, but there isn't enough example in the meta to draw conculsions if that is typical of town, scum or all the time.

The main thing is she's quick to support other accusations, she doesn't do an ABR. However, overall SK strikes me as forthright and honest to date.

I like socrates, for example, less due to the much lower activity.

[Alduskkel]

Vote: CthulhuDreams

. I'm not really confident, but I don't think you've answered Socrates' case against you very well. I mean, you thought that the wagon on YC was dwindling when he was still at L-1? Am I missing something here?

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Alduskkel: What do you think about what I said regarding Socrates in Post #322?

[Alduskkel]

@ Alduskkel: What do you think about what I said regarding Socrates in Post #322?

I'd prefer to hear from Socrates first about this, but it is a valid point from what I can see.

[hohum]

Official Vote Count:

foilist13(3): Y, Zhero, SaintKerrigan

CthulhuDreams(2): Socrates, Alduskkel
Alduskkel(1): foilist13

Not Voting: CthulhuDreams

With 7 Alive it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline: November 28th

[CthulhuDreams]

Vote: CthulhuDreams

. I'm not really confident, but I don't think you've answered Socrates' case against you very well. I mean, you thought that the wagon on YC was dwindling when he was still at L-1? Am I missing something here?

No, I didn't think it was dwindling. I didn't think we'd get a lynch except by deadline expiry (this is important) on YC151. I didn't want to forgo a hammer vote on day 1 and let it run to deadline.

I did think there was potential to get a lynch with a hammer vote on Foilist, and I was

very

happy to lynch foilist at the time. I'd still consider a lynch on him today right now strongly except it would be quick lynch stuff. I still consider he has lied in this game (whether via stupidity or misreading or whatever)

So yeah, I didn't think we'd get a hammer on him before the deadline. I didn't think you were going to vote, and iamkingdavid came out of absolutely nowhere with the hammer.

I did indeed misread the game.

[CthulhuDreams]

EBWOP: The reason I preferred a lynch via hammer to a lynch via deadline expiry is that I think a lynch via hammer is significantly more information rich.

[foilist13]

SaintKerrigan is a dude.

Since your entire case on me was based on me not reading the thread, shouldn't you be feeling pretty hypocritical at this point? I'd vote you, but I don't want to put you up to L-1, since I don't actually think you should be lynched.

HoS:CthulhuDreams

[CthulhuDreams]

No it's not. It's also about you lying about which post you meant and/or refusing the opportunity to clarify.

Also, the name and the avatar Kerrigan is a woman

[CthulhuDreams]

EBWOP: Also that is the most fucking retarded argument in the world. First off: the name Saint Kerrigan refers to a woman so HoSing me because I've played starcraft is moronic.

SK's current voice actor btw: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Helfer.jpg

Secondly if you really do think I'm scum get the hammer down. L-1 will be revealing. If you think I'm not, what are you smoking? That is the most insane and off topic omgus HoS in the world.

[Socrates]

This post is way too long, but I don't feel like taking the time to trim it down.

I don't really grok today's case on foilist. I will go back and reread what people have said about him.

I think that a certain point Y originally brought up against Socrates has been largely overlooked, so I'd like to resurrect it. This is Post #171 (which also happens to be his final Day 1 post):

all right, this time I am really back. Like, fo' reals.

My interpretation of foilist is similar to Cthulu's.

His attack of Cthulu earlier could be seen as scum trying to scare a townie off of his buddy's wagon, and when that didn't take and YankCane insisted on not doing much to help himself, he decided to bus.

Of course, that all depends on YankCane flipping scum, which I still like the chances of.

He basically OMGUS'ed the people who started his wagon (me and Cthulu) and has not really done much else. Of course, there wasn't much else for him to do what with all the inactives

VertFire has been turbo lurking (not that I can say much) and I would like to hear more from him. If he keeps going the way he is I might move my vote.

This is Post #251:

Bah, I was far too lazy yesterday. I started falling behind and then I saw these massive wall o' text posts going back and forth between Cthulu and Foilist and I just kept putting reading this game off until later, and the day ended before I got around to it. I'm awfully ashamed of this, especially since now that I have gotten to reading them, I do not like what I see.

I think Cthulhu hopping off of the YankCane wagon onto the Foilist wagon on the basis of

YankCane

being scum is absurdly bad.

Using the alignment of someone else to attack another player when that alignment isn't confirmed is illogical and scummy. It looks to me like scum trying to have his cake and eat it too, getting a mislynch off on Foilist and then when he flips town turn it back around and say that YankCane could still be scum.

vote: CthulhuDreams

So, in the first post, Socrates says he shares a similar viewpoint with CthulhuDreams on Foilist13, even saying that his own case against Foilist hinges on YankCane flipping scum. In the second post, he does a complete 180, calling CthulhuDream's jump onto Foilist's wagon bad

for the same reasons he originally agreed with CD on in the first place.

This seems very scummy to me, and honestly I'd be voting him right now if I didn't think Foilist deserved it more.

Now, that being said, CD has been awfully quiet lately...

Mod: Please prod CthulhuDreams.

Both you and Y have said this, and it just goes to show that I am not communicating why his actions are scummy very well. Here is the difference between mine and Cthulu's play yesterday.

Me: I think A is scummy, and if he is scum, then B is probably scum with him. vote: A

Cthulu: I think A is scummy, and if he is scum, then B is probably scum along with him. Vote: B

Do you seriously not see the problem here? Without YankCane being scum, the scummy motivation applied to foilists actions don't hold much water and as such, for the case the we both saw yesterday to have any validity person A's alignment must first be known. Sure, it is possible for his case to be valid,and if Yank did flip scum I would probably be voting Foilist right now, but he did not wait to find out that it is so! (Notice how I didn't move my vote to foilist when I made the same point?) I don't think a townie should intentionally do that, while I think scum would love to be able to do that to push a mislynch.

Is that any clearer?

@Y!: I only used that accusation on Foilist because he specifically invoked it as a town tell himself. I haven't used on anyone else - but I would consider not reading a scum tell in general

if and only if

used to misrepresented someone later.

I still feel that occured.

YC was at L-1 at the time, and Aldusskel was getting ready to hammer since YC wouldn't claim if I remember correctly. The YC wagon was hardly losing momentum, and if anything it was your unvote that would have been the catalyst for any change in momentum on that wagon. Claiming the wagon was dying because 1 person out of 8 expressed disinterest is lamesauce.

Aldusskel wasn't getting ready to hammer (well, he was as it turns out, but not from my PoV). He was asking someone who had a history of not asnwering questions very well to answer questions which to me was a fruitless endevour. No-one else had telegraphed even thinking about a hammer.

1) Go read post 196 and then try and tell me with a straight face that Alduskkel wasn't willing to go along with a YC lynch

2) Thinking that people are against the wagon because they haven't said anything yet is quite presumptuous. If you are telling the truth about this, may I suggest that you actually

ask

how other people feel in the future?

1) I don't have a better take - I went for YC and then foilist hard because they screamed scummy to my gut. I was wrong about YC and not happy to quick hammer foilist because of it. That said:

2) I'm not quite as confident on Foilist as you thought I don't think he's not suspicious, I'm just not sure the case on Foilist is THAT much better but I did vote for him yesterday. Not keen to put the quick-hammer on just yet, but I'll consider it if the situation develops. I'm certainly not going to hammer just at the moment and am happy to leave

I think Cthulhu hopping off of the YankCane wagon onto the Foilist wagon on the basis of YankCane being scum is absurdly bad. Using the alignment of someone else to attack another player when that alignment isn't confirmed is illogical and scummy. It looks to me like scum trying to have his cake and eat it too, getting a mislynch off on Foilist and then when he flips town turn it back around and say that YankCane could still be scum.

I felt both were scum, Foilist had certainly actively lied before in my view. Given that, I was happy to lynch either.

This is contradictory to your earlier statement in post 237:

My entire argument is that you're bussing yankcane - 'not reading' is just a tool that you're using to do so. Not the converse (that you're bussing yankcane as a result of not reading the thread)

The behaviour - yankcane151 immediately bandwagonning with your random vote, you coming to his defense, then the switch out when lynching looks inevitable (and yes, I acknowledge the break) are the actual reason I'm voting and also, I'm 90% sure, why Alduskkel doesn't like my vote.

A point which you haven't addressed except to say 'my vote switch is legit honest'

Anyway my entire arguement falls over hard if YankCane151 doesn't flip scum, which is why I should probably hammer him.

[Socrates]

EBWOP: the folllow up to that quote:

You spent the entire time applying bussing as the scum motivation for Foilist's actions. Your arguments never seemed to make room for the fact that Foilist could be scum independant of YankCane.

Let me ask you real quick. What scum motivation would Foilist have to make his "Lie"? It was something so patently and obviously wrong that he almost certainly wouldn't have gotten away with it, so why would he do that as scum?

[CthulhuDreams]

Not particular sure. It's fucking weird which is why I haven't hammered him despite the fact he's at L-1. He does it quite a few times as well, it's not just once. I mean, check out post 227.

1) Here you are blatantly lying, and being a hypocrite for accusing me of it later, and completely misrepresenting the evidence. My post before that was returning to the game after requesting a replacement.

Like, he says that I'm misrepresenting him (as above) by saying he was away and didn't mention the computer breaking thing when I did say:

Then we have a short break, backed up by Foilist breaking his computer, and we switch to

Frankly I don't like him.

@Aldus in 196. Yeah, then he backed that up with I'm going to wait for a guy who has been accused of lurking (repeatedly) for good reason to claim before I hammer with the deadline in train in a few days. Also, a number of people had indicated they were willing to lynch foilist.

And fuck it, I said like 5 times I was happy to lynch foilist because I was pretty sold on him being scum. That vote switch was the most telegraphed move in the game. If you don't like that, I don't have a defence.

[CthulhuDreams]

EBWOP: Clarify "I don't like him" - I have no personal problem with foilist, he's just acting shifty.

I mean what the hell? In one page we've gone from

@CthulhuDreams - What are your thoughts on SaintKerrigan? Since he replaced in I haven't seen any real scrutiny here, but I don't have time right now to go take a good look, and you seem more objective than most players.

to

Since your entire case on me was based on me not reading the thread, shouldn't you be feeling pretty hypocritical at this point? I'd vote you, but I don't want to put you up to L-1, since I don't actually think you should be lynched.

HoS:CthulhuDreams

Because I called someone named after a female video game character 'she'

Wah?

[Y]

@Y - How arrogant of scum would I have to be to narrow the list of possible suspects to three, myself being one of them, when I came within an inch of being lynched yesterday? Think about that. Does that sound like a town player scumhunting, or a scum player blatantly taking absurd risks?

From my point of view, you're scum, so your list is worth nothing. No real risk. Besides, you voicing it like that it WIFOM.
Furthermore, if you want to get picky, you excluded yourself from your list, so not only that your point is moot, but you're also misrepresenting the whole situation.
Presto - Another point to my "foilist is scum" list.

@ CD: You really have a tendency to misunderstand most of the game. Please read more carefully.
I never accused you nor referred to you (Besides saying that you're not scummy. You just make a lot of mistakes). The quote was there to point out Socrates' actions.
I believe foilist is accusing you for this:

I did indeed misread the game.

Not because of Saint's gender.

[SaintKerrigan]

Unvote: Foilist13

Socrates is making a fair bit of sense regarding CthulhuDreams, and I need to think about this. I'm still suspicious of Foilist, but given the recent rise of CD on my suspect list I want to take the vote down to avoid a hammer before I finish reading up on CD (and any other suspects that might arise in that time).

[SaintKerrigan]

@CthulhuDreams - What are your thoughts on SaintKerrigan? Since he replaced in I haven't seen any real scrutiny here, but I don't have time right now to go take a good look, and you seem more objective than most players.

Why do you feel CD is more objective than most players?

[SaintKerrigan]

The behaviour - yankcane151 immediately bandwagonning with your random vote, you coming to his defense, then the switch out when lynching looks inevitable (and yes, I acknowledge the break) are the actual reason I'm voting and also, I'm 90% sure, why Alduskkel doesn't like my vote.

I switched because it looked like Y! wanted to lynch Foilist instead and we weren't going to get a hammer on YC151 due to a lack of momentum.

I note foilist only claimed his vote and his advice where in different posts after I asked him to clarify, was ignored, asked again, was ignored again, and then provided the cover - and it's STILL pretty dubious. That 'advice' is so disconnected from that vote it's not even funny.

It's the major reason I switched votes and it's the major reason I still don't like foilist.

Whoa! That's three different explanations for your vote switch to Foilist yesterday. In the first quote you say the evidence provided was the actual reason you switched, but then in the second quote you provide an alternative reason why you voted Foilist, and in the third quote you

again

provide an alternative explanation and say it, in fact, is the major reason you switched votes. You better explain yourself, CD. I'm starting to like you less and less...

[Alduskkel]

@Y - How arrogant of scum would I have to be to narrow the list of possible suspects to three, myself being one of them, when I came within an inch of being lynched yesterday? Think about that. Does that sound like a town player scumhunting, or a scum player blatantly taking absurd risks?

From my point of view, you're scum, so your list is worth nothing. No real risk. Besides, you voicing it like that it WIFOM.
Furthermore, if you want to get picky, you excluded yourself from your list, so not only that your point is moot, but you're also misrepresenting the whole situation.
Presto - Another point to my "foilist is scum" list.

I'm not following this. Did you expect foilist to include himself in his possible scum list? And your certainty of foilist's scum status disturbs me.

[CthulhuDreams]

@ CD: You really have a tendency to misunderstand most of the game. Please read more carefully.
I never accused you nor referred to you (Besides saying that you're not scummy. You just make a lot of mistakes). The quote was there to point out Socrates' actions.

I'm not sure where I referred to you accusing me? Can you please point that out?

[CthulhuDreams]

Whoa! That's three different explanations for your vote switch to Foilist yesterday. In the first quote you say the evidence provided was the actual reason you switched, but then in the second quote you provide an alternative reason why you voted Foilist, and in the third quote you

again

provide an alternative explanation and say it, in fact, is the major reason you switched votes. You better explain yourself, CD. I'm starting to like you less and less...

There is an extensive post by me discussing how I didn't like that move in the wall of text spam before I moved my vote. Anyway, I voted him for all 3 reasons, and I clearly overuse the phrasing 'major reason'

I don't like his lying, I didn't like the shift on YC, and I wasn't at all sure we'd get a hammer vote.

[Zhero]

CD's post after his vote on foilist does touch on all three points, so his motives do seem consistent, at the least. Still not liking the whole momentum thing, since just earlier in the same day as CD's vote switch, Ald specifically mentions that he's comfortable with hammering YC.

And yet again, foilist goes from a positive read to a negative read in a few short posts. It really feels like he's just trying to make something stick.

[foilist13]

@Zhero - What was I supposed to have done in a few short posts?

Secondly if you really do think I'm scum get the hammer down. L-1 will be revealing. If you think I'm not, what are you smoking? That is the most insane and off topic omgus HoS in the world.

Fine.

unvote, vote:CthulhuDreams

I do think you are scum, much more so now based on Saint's post where you list different reasons three times. That is classic scum behavior. If you have a PR I suggest you claim.

@Alduskkel - I'd like to hear your thoughts on CthulhuDreams. You're still exceedingly scummy in my eyes, so some sort of content would be reassuring.

@Everyone - Please don't hammer until we get some sort of defense or claim from Cthulhu, or if you happen to prefer lynching me.

@SaintKerrigan - Are you unvoting me because you no longer find me suspicious, or because you are more suspicious of CthulhuDreams?

[CthulhuDreams]

As Zhero pointed out, I have mentioned these reasons all before in combination. This is not new material.

So we've moved from me being the most impartial player here to me @ L-1 because I said you suck because you haven't played starcraft? Awesome.

On the basis of the insanity of these events, and that the voting piles are now 3/3 with SK to hammer, I'm going to.

A) claim vanilla townie
B) say omgus and

Vote: Foilist13

moving him to L-1.

I've covered the reasons before, and because SK has moved he(r) vote off I can safely do this without hammering. I think you're scum trying to rail someone who's pushed for your lynch for a while now!

Guns drawn, let the mexican standoff commence, though I'm not sure it's a bright idea.