Mini 884 - Last Man Standing (Over)

[Ectomancer]

Unvote: Sotty7
Vote: Ectomancer

(L-5)

Less agreeing with what other people have been saying, more taking stances.

[Benmage]

@Benmage: If you make another post like 190 you

deserve

to die. Summary paragraphs make kids happy and rainbows appear in the sky even when it doesn't rain. Plus what you said is more sniping than defending.

Vi, this aint your first game with me...thats how i play especially if i fall behind in a thread and catch-up.

What you mean by summary paragraphs? You dont like my quote/response/quote thing...

(inc Zazier/battlemageposts)

[don_johnson]

Sorry, I blended what happened together here unintentionally. The OMGUS came later on in the thread.

yes. in fact my vote on you came after the accusation of omgus, so whatever.

A post containing solely a vote in a thread that had currently had only joking votes is not clearly random?

your vote was not random. you had a "reason". so no. an unexplained vote is not "clearly" anything but unexplained.

I wasn't against explaining my vote . . . I just felt that figuring out why you were so jumpy was a more productive plan of attack.

again: what is jumpy about asking "why?". in fact, if you read the other question you avoided in that post you would realize that i attempted to get some discussion going regarding the whole idea of random voting and whether or not players should participate in it. "jumpy" would have been a more sensical accusation had i omgus voted you right away and accused you of not explaining your vote. that is not what i did. i gave you the oppurtunity to respond to me in a pro town fashion. you chose avoidance. you failed to answer both questions.

If random votes do not need to be explained, than why did you ask me to explain mine? Sounds like it's only because it was on you.

its called: conversation. your vote was not "clearly" random. and it was on me. i don't have a problem with unexplained votes. i simply asked you "why?" you chose to avoid giving an answer.

And here's another question: What is inherently scummy about not explaining your RVS vote right off?

absolutely nothing. i never said there was.

your persistence in this matter is puzzling. a review of the facts clearly shows that you avoided two direct questions, and instead of answering them and questioning back you decided to simply attack me for asking questions. so you tell me:

what is inherently scummy about asking questions?

[Benmage]

If you don't answer my questions, do you honestly think I'm going to answer yours?

This is gonna be a fun trend.

There's an

equal

chance of both.

Wow!...Equal...equal!!! I'd yield that there's a chance of both...but an equal chance. geeze you'll say anything to make your point more believable. terrrrribad.

(Ohh goodies, nacho was 3rd voter on me too )

The Third Vote Theory is only effective if the person placing the vote isn't aware of said theory. Also, if everyone were to buy into that, then no one would actually be lynched because everyone would be afraid of casting the third vote.

I was being comical...but your response makes me think your sweating....i like

[Benmage]

Less agreeing with what other people have been saying, more taking stances.

How do you read my post in 190, not like it, and bare through post 196 and not make a single comment on the fluff and uselessness of it.

[Benmage]

Ohhh right right right... Quick synopsis.

I'd love to vote Nacho, because this whole exchange between me and him seems like a desperate attempt to push my lynch on "easy terms"...and its not workin out.

But my votes going to VPB...and i'll try to expand on this maybe later to help convince why, because right now its terrible reasoning. Well not bad, but bad in getting you all to lynch. Its based off a meta between me and her, and she just isn't playing at all how i'm use to (so clearly i think shes scum)...obviously meta is something only for me, so i'll try and expand on this later.

unvote vote VPB

[Amished]

I don't have time to respond to everything I'd like to in thread, but the 3rd party thing has come up a couple times and is cause for confusion.

Scum and 3rd party; technically; are both anti-town and both need to be gotten rid of throughout the course of the game. I think benmage and vi are *scummy*; while I think d3x is third-party. The reason I think so, Vi touched upon in 192, and I initially saw Sotty bring up in the first 60 posts or so. The difference that I pick up on is that scum try to push cases (cause they assume that they're the only scumgroup, especially in a mini) while a third party *knows* that there's another faction of some sort out there. Scum therefore have to look to build mislynches; while third-party can actually scumhunt.

The problem with 3rd party scumhunting, is that they know that they're all alone; so have a higher than normal self-preservation mentality. They'll tend to be more fence-sitty and wishywashy than normal (59 is a perfect example of this):

I don't have suspicions as to whether or not your reasons for Voting Ecto were legit, nor did I ever say I did. I asked if you were making a Random Vote or not. I Voted you for deflecting {which you continue to do} and for getting defensive.

To answer your question, I do think that extending the RVS is a bit scummy, so Ecto tips a bit towards the Scum side of my scale. Ecto wasn't the only one doing it, though. And I found your reaction more scummy than those who were trying to extend the RVS.

"don't have suspicions"; "a bit scummy" "tips towards the scum side" are all weak versions of legitimate stances so as to not appear too harsh and get attention because of that.

[ConfidAnon]

Post 202: Your questioning of my vote was jumpy because you only questioned my RVS vote on you, not all of the unexplained RVS votes that came before it.

I never said asking questions was scummy. Your jumpiness is.

--------------------------

Caught up on the NM/Ecto thing, and my view is the same as before. NM reads town with poor play.

[Benmage]

@Con

can you explain further your interpretation of a 'scummy town' vs a 'scummy scum'.

[MiteyMouse]

Official Vote Count!

*Benmage 3 (PorkchopExpress, VP Baltar, Nachomamma8)
ConfidAnon 2 (Sotty, don_johnson)
Ectomancer 2 (pwnz, Vi)
Nachomamma8 1 (d3x )
don_johnson 1 (ConfidAnon)
pwnz 1 (Ectomancer)
VP Baltar 1 (Benmage)

Not voting:

Amished

[ConfidAnon]

@Con can you explain further your interpretation of a 'scummy town' vs a 'scummy scum'.

Someone doing a scummy action does not neccessarily make that person scum. Town do scummy things, as do scum. To me, NM reads more as a townie who has done scummy things than actual scum trying to cover for his mistakes. The read can definitely change, but as of right now I think he's town.

[Amished]

Ahh, catching up time:

@Benmage: I'll go through the posts that I saw of yours that were scummy, and why.

115: You explicitly state that you can't condemn people on small things alone. Unfortunately, this is exactly what you do to CA; especially after seeing the reason that all of us had voted for him at the time. You went back and quoted the fact that it was a small thing that we all went against him for, but you decided to vote for him and do exactly what you thought was scummy previously.

127: "wtf" does nothing to express your opinion. I get the feeling you posted it for the sake of posting it (and it was right after I started attacking CA, and DJ attacked CA as well (hrm). It's a post that allows you to say it means whatever you want it to mean, while not advancing the game. Anti-town at best.

133: Terrible WIFOM about scum try to play flawlessly. Everyone tries to play flawlessly as they can. Also, you say that scum are nitpicky as hell. This relates to the CA vote: wouldn't scum be more likely to vote *for* CA for his comment rather than leave it be? Yet who did you suspect, the person who has been nitpicked upon. This does not look like a vote that should come from your perspective and opinion about what makes scum.

142: Terrible reasoning for your vote (especially with my comments towards 133).

165: It's the first part of this where you say you'll have to reread him in ISO. You generally should have an opinion on every player without having to read them; while your comment to reread in ISO sounds like you're gonna go look to see what you can find scummy now that somebody else has expressed suspicion on him.

Also, I *hate hate hate* 201. You should not feel it necessary to rely on another player for your defense. I have also played with you, Ben. So has VP Baltar. There might be others, but VP and I playing with you is something that I've seen directly.

Benmage relying on meta of VP already doesn't get my hopes very high yet either. Looking forward to his "case".

Vote: Benmage

If (when) this wagon gets to L-2; I would like everyone to not vote for him if you think he's the scummiest. I want to try something.

[PorkchopExpress]

Pwnz

• Pwnz’s attitude and subsequent explanation are a little suspicious to me. I’m not really sure what the benefit is in sandbagging for four posts, and then starting to provide the very kind of arguments that he decries in his first two posts. [LINKS]. This looks less like sandbagging and more like sitting out until he got attention for it.

Sotty7

• I think there is a whole lot of misrepresentation coming from Sotty in this post. The word ‘necessarily’ is pretty key in that sentence, and Sotty ignoring it allows her to call scum on d3x for having an attitude he didn’t hold. Then the whole blowing things out of proportion is, ironically, blowing d3x’s actions out of proportion. Scumtastic.
• We get a lot of questions but very little analysis is delivered. Case in point. These guys are ok, these guys need to post and the rest are question marks. Way to avoid giving a concrete response.

Benmage

•

He explained himself. Me putting him at L-2 will make him come out and defend himself, if he fails to do so properly he hangs. Its fairly simple.

From this post. I’m not entirely sure what you are expecting Confid to come out and defend himself against, if he has already explained his actions and you’ve done nothing (beyond voting) to challenge that. You are either voting because you think his play is demonstrably scummy or because you’re trying to pressure him into explaining his actions. Your words say you’re doing one thing, but your play says another. (Unlike, say, VP you aren’t actually doing any of the due diligence in attacking the response, you just act like you are.) Reeks of opportunistic scuminess.
• What Benmage is talking about here doesn’t make any sense. Surely reading Confid in iso would have only served to highlight the scummy attitude. If he was actually looking it would have been apparent, instead he flip-flopped when he saw a popular standpoint. Also, way to try and cheaply undercut the wagon at the end there.

• I’m also bothered by this change of attitude regarding the whole “scummy-town” thing. Benmage’s attitude is initially:

One thing that struck me as peculiar was him saying nacho is more scummy town..than scummy scum...whats the difference there...??

In this post.
Then he takes a different stance in his next post. A Stance that has gone some way to forming his read of ConfidAnon.

But than he calls him scummy town, not scummy scum…tough reach there. Scummy town to me is usually referencing players playing poorly/badly…its early for that deduction. So a little confused by his statements.

He doesn’t see a difference to begin with (while he was downplaying the Confidwagon) but in his very next post he sees a difference and that makes Confid likely scum.

And now he is starting to reach against nm8. The response to the 3rd vote comment in no way indicates that nm8 is sweating. In fact, it is more likely to suggest the reverse imo.

Benmage or Sotty are my current suspects. I'm going to revisit Confid. I'll let you know.

[PorkchopExpress]

I was going to put a preamble up there but got all excited an hit the post button. Anyhoo, my apologies but work has been slaughtering me. It's primarily because of all this hysteria about a chick who can't decide if she'd rather screw a corpse or a dog. The above were some notes I took as I reread the whole game (the joys of falling behind) and I'll be more active in the next week thanks to five days off. Winner. Also, I'd like to say: After playing in a couple of games together, I am just learning that VP is a woman. This does not bode well for my attention to detail.

Back on game:

There could be something under this rock. Amished, explain why there is a good reason to assume 3rd party.
From my standpoint, if you are town, then you are looking for scum in general. Im not certain how you could differentiate between the tow on day 1, so looking for your explanation. The bad side is that while town is looking for scum in general, scum would be looking for 3rd party if they exist, and your post can be interpreted as scum fishing for 3rd parties.

You've lost me here. Why would scum be expecting a 3rd party?

[PorkchopExpress]

And I forgot to add links to pwnz response. Premature posting is a serious problem that we should be more willing to talk about in the locker room.

Iso 1

Iso 4

These are what I was referencing.

[Ectomancer]

I was going to put a preamble up there but got all excited an hit the post button. Anyhoo, my apologies but work has been slaughtering me. It's primarily because of all this hysteria about a chick who can't decide if she'd rather screw a corpse or a dog. The above were some notes I took as I reread the whole game (the joys of falling behind) and I'll be more active in the next week thanks to five days off. Winner. Also, I'd like to say: After playing in a couple of games together, I am just learning that VP is a woman. This does not bode well for my attention to detail.

Back on game:

There could be something under this rock. Amished, explain why there is a good reason to assume 3rd party.
From my standpoint, if you are town, then you are looking for scum in general. Im not certain how you could differentiate between the tow on day 1, so looking for your explanation. The bad side is that while town is looking for scum in general, scum would be looking for 3rd party if they exist, and your post can be interpreted as scum fishing for 3rd parties.

You've lost me here. Why would scum be expecting a 3rd party?

Scum know their numbers and roles. If they feel light in numbers or roles, it could indicate a 3rd party and hence, they would go looking. So seeing someone looking for a 3rd party without reason, ie a 2nd night kill or other obvious factor, is cause to wonder, no?

Amished do I have it right that you think d3x could be 3rd party because you believe he is both scummy and scumhunting?

[don_johnson]

Post 202: Your questioning of my vote was jumpy because you only questioned my RVS vote on you, not all of the unexplained RVS votes that came before it.

I never said asking questions was scummy. Your jumpiness is.

*facepalm*

you are either a scum or a moron. you addressed me. i was responding to you. then you avoided answering two very simple questions and went on a rant that i am "jumpy" for responding to you.

vote stays.

*passes out buttons with "lynch confid" on them*

they're really pretty. take one.

[don_johnson]

ebwop: i am not sure what is more annoying: giant fucking quote walls or players who repeatedly link to other posts.

[Nachomamma8]

Why are you obligated to make a

decision between

the two of us?
In addition, what IS that decision right now? Are we both Town? scum? one vs. one? more so than anyone else in the game? If you can't tell, what are you doing to find out?

I'm obligated to make a decision between the two of you for my personal town-scum list. I'd rather not reveal where you place, only that you aren't a top suspect.

[Benmage]

@Con can you explain further your interpretation of a 'scummy town' vs a 'scummy scum'.

Someone doing a scummy action does not neccessarily make that person scum. Town do scummy things, as do scum. To me, NM reads more as a townie who has done scummy things than actual scum trying to cover for his mistakes. The read can definitely change, but as of right now I think he's town.

Well than what from him reads town?

115:

You explicitly state that you can't condemn people on small things alone.

Unfortunately, this is exactly what you do to CA; especially after seeing the reason that all of us had voted for him at the time. You went back and quoted the fact that it was a small thing that we all went against him for, but you decided to vote for him and do exactly what you thought was scummy previously.

Reading post 115 I dont see where I explicitly state this.. Please link or quote....

Also pretty sure i said from beginning my vote was to see his response/hear his view on "scummy town vs scummy scum(clearly-er)" ...and was in no way the nail in the coffin, so stop pushing that false point.

127: "wtf" does nothing to express your opinion. I get the feeling you posted it for the sake of posting it (and it was right after I started attacking CA, and DJ attacked CA as well (hrm). It's a post that allows you to say it means whatever you want it to mean, while not advancing the game. Anti-town at best.

(I cant believe i have to respond to this)
Lets see....omg, its so simple. It was in reference to post 126...the??? post right before it..i didnt understand the point or what dj was really doing, and i think i clarify so later.

Anti town …this case is awesome (massive sarcasm for those of you who cant read between the lines)

133: Terrible WIFOM about scum try to play flawlessly. Everyone tries to play flawlessly as they can.

This is false...simply you can't use absolutes. Welcome to mafia. I understand you're trying to sound convincing, but this isn't a high school persuasive writing assignment. Just me alone as a sole person, based off my experience I can disagree. I read every line slowwwly as scum…as town i skim here and there occasionally (i try not too ) But my point was/is, as town i sometimes post without having my reference in front of me or writing in word or previewing or making sure everything is 100% perfect. As scum I do. And my point is i believe most people make sure everything is 100% perfect as scum, but might get lazy a little as town and rush something.

Do you disagree?

This relates to the CA vote: wouldn't scum be more likely to vote *for* CA for his comment rather than leave it be? Yet who did you suspect, the person who has been nitpicked upon. This does not look like a vote that should come from your perspective and opinion about what makes scum.

Uhm, wrong interpretation. Con didn’t reference someone wrongly, or quote some one else…he made his point, his belief, and it was a scummy one. He might not of believed it scummy…there was no error... just a scummy statement. Hence ze votes.

142: Terrible reasoning for your vote (especially with my comments towards 133).

Terrible reasoning It was 3(it think 3) other people's reasoning..that i saw clearly when rereading...but sure only I had terrible reasoning. Please tunnel me more my wagon and your case rocks. (more sarcasm) (comments from 133...oh yeah those inaccurate interpretations)

165: It's the first part of this where you say you'll have to reread him in ISO. You generally should have an opinion on every player without having to read them; while your comment to reread in ISO sounds like you're gonna go look to see what you can find scummy now that somebody else has expressed suspicion on him.

Is this a point....is this really a point. Holy crap. I haven't read the posts following this but god do i hope someone who isnt tunneling me, or is good (because theres some good players in this game) have looked and read this, and nicely insulted or ridiculed you/this post. Of course I have general opinions. This doesn't suggest anything about not having a general opinion.

Let me break this down for you: It is a town thing to do to read, and reread and re-reread, and than re-re-reread again. You learn so much and that is one of the better ways to scum hunt and find scummy things..you never catch everything the first time (yeah i just used an absolute) Especially if it concerns a certain or individual issue. I have a general idea, but i want to refresh my memory on said specifics.

Also, I *hate hate hate* 201. You should not feel it necessary to rely on another player for your defense. I have also played with you, Ben. So has VP Baltar. There might be others, but VP and I playing with you is something that I've seen directly.

Can you please start reading this thread. Becaus eyour case is evident that you dont. Vi complained about my posting style. I told her thats how i post in every game and she should know it because shes played with me a lot...in fact its how tons of players post..i dont know what she was really getting at, but throughout all the midsts of mafia and finding scum i jest a little here and there with people i play with.

So go find something of worth and come back because your case blows worse than the refs who missed that french soccer players obvious handball.


@Pork. Amished took a lot out of me. But “whats the difference” was me wanting him to explain it, not me not having a view on it. And my vote was to get him to explain things further? Good, or did I miss something you want explained further/revisited…its late here I am tired.

[Benmage]

Nacho

this struck me as humerous earlier, and i dont think you commented on it, or maybe i missed it...but you're cool with Con, calling you a bad player?

Do you think you've played a poor game thus far?

[Amished]

@Ecto: Yes, he's both scummy and looking for scum. His heightened sense of self preservation is a large part of the former (and also what makes me place him in 3rd party rather than mafia group scum).

[Sotty7]

That's not how I remember it happening. My question on the nacho wagon wasn't a response to anything you said to me, it was me questioning you and your read on the confid wagon.

How does that contradict anything I said?

You said I was trying to steer conversation away from Confid, this is not true. I also don't think I was ever ignoring you. But yeah, circles, we are going around in one here.

What is your opinion of BentheMage?

Poorly reasoned townie at this point. I am not seeing the scum motivation for playing like he has, jumping on the early nacho wagon without really knowing about it, then jumping on the confid wagon on others reasoning. Also his outlandish response to the Amished case makes me feel he is more likely to be town.

Basically the same read I believe you have of confid.

But my votes going to VPB...and i'll try to expand on this maybe later to help convince why, because right now its terrible reasoning. Well not bad, but bad in getting you all to lynch. Its based off a meta between me and her, and she just isn't playing at all how i'm use to (so clearly i think shes scum)...obviously meta is something only for me, so i'll try and expand on this later.

Please do explain because to me it is looking a little like OMGUS.

The problem with 3rd party scumhunting, is that they know that they're all alone; so have a higher than normal self-preservation mentality. They'll tend to be more fence-sitty and wishywashy than normal (59 is a perfect example of this)

No, I'm not buying this. D3x was pushing hard on nacho, he wasn't being wishy washy or fence-sitty. I think you are really reaching here to justify the 3rd party comment you made.

Sotty7

• I think there is a whole lot of misrepresentation coming from Sotty in this post. The word ‘necessarily’ is pretty key in that sentence, and Sotty ignoring it allows her to call scum on d3x for having an attitude he didn’t hold. Then the whole blowing things out of proportion is, ironically, blowing d3x’s actions out of proportion. Scumtastic.
• We get a lot of questions but very little analysis is delivered. Case in point. These guys are ok, these guys need to post and the rest are question marks. Way to avoid giving a concrete response.

I don't think it is misrepresentation at all. I wanted to know what d3x thought was a scum tell. Being defensive is

not

a scum tell, ever. Both townies and scum have every reason to be defensive in the face of a vote/wagon/lynch/death and I have found that just saying someone is defensive is a negative reflection on that player and hence is supposed to make them scummy. Really it is a null tell.

I asked d3x if he thought being defenseive was a legit scum tell (Post 66) he basically said no, not by itself at least, but I watch for it anyway. That tripped my alarm because being defensive was part of the reason d3x voted nacho for. So I probed him some more. So where is the misrep?

As for the questioning thing I am pretty guilty of that in this game mainly because I am confused and I am trying to figure things out. There seems to be a lot of play I can dismiss as newb town play (Ben, Don even confid.) but I need to find the scummy play. Asking questions of players helps me try and figure out their motivation. I'm not going to stop doing it.

Don: What do you think of Amished and his 3rd party thoughts?

I'll admit I'm not quite on ball with the Don v Confid argument, I will need to review the thread to get a better opinion on that.

[Benmage]

But my votes going to VPB...and i'll try to expand on this maybe later to help convince why, because right now its terrible reasoning. Well not bad, but bad in getting you all to lynch. Its based off a meta between me and her, and she just isn't playing at all how i'm use to (so clearly i think shes scum)...obviously meta is something only for me, so i'll try and expand on this later.

Please do explain because to me it is looking a little like OMGUS.

I told ya its a bad vote already lol, because its based solely on my eperience with VP.

[Benmage]

I'll admit I'm not quite on ball with the Don v Confid argument, I will need to review the thread to get a better opinion on that.

Dont do it!! reading the thread is for the devil. Right amished?