Mini 880 - Mini Quick and Dirty - Game Over

[ODDin]

(I just want to say that I'll be able to catch up and post in the evening today - which will be a bit more than 48 hours. Sorry for that.)

[Amished]

@SC: Your vote wasn't on me yet? What took you so long to finally place it, and why after OJ posted?

@OJ: First, I want to quote the relevant part of the post by SC that was immediately before my "question" that had a little idea marker by it.

...

I think it would - I generally rarely bus and like to keep my scumteam intact. And even if you had to lose a scum member, you at least want to bus and get some town points for it. In that scenario, you wouldn't even get any town points for losing a partner. I think that a semi-random scum lynch in that manner would be a real hassle for scum.

I was posing a semi-joking question (which I didn't hassle him {SC} for not answering, cause I wasn't expecting it) to see if he would openly give away his scum team if he was scum.

The rest of 167 (by me) is much more on topic, and actually pertains information that I wanted to know/relevant to the game.

[ODDin]

Crap, turned out there was an assignment I completely forgot about which is due tomorrow. Which sucks. So, I'll just briefly respond to some things.
I really want to reread some things because I'm focusing way too much on PZ and myself at the moment, which is bad. I'll do this the moment I get some time, but I'm not sure when that's going to be.

That's a good point. I wonder: is it possible to be serious about wanting a bandwagon to grow and not really serious with who the target is? To expect a seriously productive outcome from something only slightly more than random? That does help clarify where those criticisms are coming from.

IMO, it's possible, but you'd need to at least vaguely fake a reason. It seems like there was a weak reason, but the case itself wasn't the point.

@Raskol: I believe you said you're considering voting for me? If so, I'd appreciate your reasons for it.

If pushing for a bandwagon as a reason itself is enclosed at the time I would imagine the assumed stirring would lose some of its point. Seeing the underlined as scummy is shaky, really, postcount upping by one as scum motivation?

That, in itself, isn't my main reason for a vote. However, even if the actually reason for your vote isn't something you want to openly discuss at the moment, you should still be able to state some sort of reason. Pushing cases which you know are weak for the sake of wagons and stuff is okay - but at least present that very weak case. If you don't give any reason at all, then it's just going to look like a random vote and it won't generate the necessary effect either. To create a bandwagon, you need to push a bit. PZ didn't push. For that matter, I think the biggest talk it generated was about his own reasons for the vote and whether or not he was serious about it (which, I assume, wasn't his aim with that vote).

[Raskol]

I'm looking at you for your votes. I'm not sure I like the way you backed up your vote for your latest target, and that has me looking at your previous vote as well.

That said, for ODDin and Sando, a question for both of you: if you had an awesome one-shot day-vig power that could only be used in thread right now, would you use it? Whom would you use it on?

[Zorblag]

@Papa Zito, why do you think that Troll doesn't like the opening you used? Troll be largely indifferent towards it but Troll no recalls actually saying what Troll thought about it at any point, just that Troll found it something Papa Zito would do and that it no helps for a read on Papa Zito.

@VP Baltar, Troll thinks that the views ODDin be expressing are consistent with what Troll expects him to believe to some degree. Using the deception from Papa Zito as a large part of a day one vote is something him would do. Troll continues to have a mild town read for ODDin based on Troll's expectations.

Mod: Could we get a current vote count and an exact time for the deadline please?

It looks like the deadline should be sometime in the next couple days so it probably be time to figure out what wagons we be looking at and picking one. Troll be fairly flexible at this point but no one has surpassed Sando in terms of Troll's desire to lynch them. Troll wants to see just where we be now with votes though.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Sando]

Zorblag, you've never seriously outlined a case against me, care to do so? All you've really done is ask me questions regarding my opinions on posting. Your vote on me is from before I joined the game.

Amished, you've avoided the question, why did you find me questioning someone on their town reads, yet not find the others who did it scummy?

And jokingly asking 'are you the cop' is still scummy, and I'm not sure why you wouldn't assume I was doing the same thing in what I was looking for, considering we're asking the same person the same question.

Just fobbing a question that is scummy off as joking doesn't explain what you said and what you chose to ignore.

[Amished]

@Sando: Because of context.

Like I said, if he had answered and flipped scum later on, it would've been a good point to look at then. As such, I wasn't really looking for an answer beyond him telling me who his scumbuddies were if he was oblivious enough to not see what I was doing.

When I find somebody asking for town reads and being serious about it; they shoot up on my scumdar. Seriously, read 161-162 again for yourself and then judge how I meant to ask the question. Do you really think my motivation really was to get him to divulge his town reads if he's town?

[Sando]

Did you really miss the Oddin quote asking for the town reads, or are you just choosing to ignore it?

[Amished]

I missed it

[Amished]

Unless you're talking about the one in ISO 6 (I don't see another one). I've been watching him, and I'm not certain on his alignment yet. I see things that say town, and some things that say scum.

[Sando]

So why was me asking for pro-town read scummy and Odinn's not?

[Amished]

I never said ODDin's wasn't scummy. That initially sparked my interest; but like I said since then I've gotten conflicting vibes from him. I'm not really getting those from you which is why I'm focusing on you at the moment.

[Sando]

I never said ODDin's wasn't scummy. That initially sparked my interest; but like I said since then I've gotten conflicting vibes from him. I'm not really getting those from you which is why I'm focusing on you at the moment.

You're not really, you're just answering the questions posed to you by others. You haven't said anything about why you find me scummy in a while, and what you said you found scummy you've done yourself and didn't find particularly scummy from someone else.

[BigBear]

Apologies for not getting the VC up recently. I've been in a lot of meetings in the past few days that took up most of my free time. I should be good from now on henceforth.

Official Vote Count

Charlatan (2) - Raskol, AGar
AGar (1) - Ojanen
Amished (3) - Sando, Ojanen, SerialCleargyman
Sando (4) - Scien, Amished, Zorblag, Charlatan
ODDin (1) - Papa Zito
Papa Zito (1) - ODDin

Not Voting:

Deadline is November 23rd. At 11:59pm est.

[Amished]

Obviously not everything that somebody does is scummy. I believe that I put out what I needed to against you. As for my current proactivity; I was hoping that the people promising to post content soon would give me something to work with, but sadly people not around can't contribute at all.

@Sando: Lately you've called Charlatan scummy, and briefly questioned why Troll was voting for you. Coming from you; I don't know how to take "I'm not proactive enough".

WRT ODDin: I see more pro-town activity to put him behind you on my scumlist. He's also being attacked (raskol indicated that he might vote for ODD, OJ had some content against him; PZ's vote is on him) which occupies his time defending himself. I want him to give more of an opinion on others, but until he has time I'm kinda hamstringed in that regard. Most of what I question about ODD is being addressed by others, and I don't like to parrot other people's questions if they're basically the same questions that I would ask.

Would you like to question me more, question somebody else around (which I'm not sure there really is, and 2 days til deadline isn't a happy time for people go go V/LA; especially with a nolynch hovering overhead if we can't come to a consensus), or try to poke a lurker with 2 days left. I didn't think 14 pages was that big of a deal, but I guess it is. Maybe I just need less of a life.

At this point, I'm worried most about the fact that I think some of the minimal posters are scum and the actives are town just attacking each other. The ekiM/Charlatan slot is a bad victim of this, Scien lately is bad for this, SC this week is similar as well.

[Sando]

Is there a reason you're choosing to ignore the main reason that you're voting me, that I questioned the pro-town reads from SC, when you do a run-down of my activity?

You can't have forgotten, it's the main reason you're voting me after all.

The general apathy being shown in thread is fairly disheartening though.

[Amished]

I'm not ignoring it; I thought that your 332 was for something more recent/did it again. Both actions are scummy, but there have been a couple things from ODDin that I've seen that was pro-town which give me pause when I haven't seen *as much* of that from you.

Agreed on the apathy.

[Sando]

So what do you find about me scummy then?

I think I've cleared up the asking SC for town reads, and I think you've even said that was explained to your satisfaction.

Are we going back to the debate over how opinions should be posted etc? I think I've been one of the more active people in the last week, which is hardly a big effort considering my competition, but I feel a bit miffed being attacked because I apparently won't provide opinions, when I've been one of the few doing so recently. Most people have been posting the bare minimum, with a few 'oh I need to catch up' and the great 'waiting for a votecount' etc etc.

[SerialClergyman]

@SC: Your vote wasn't on me yet? What took you so long to finally place it, and why after OJ posted?

I was happy with my ODDin vote, although I mentioned to VP earlier I'd be happy switching to you. Since my read of PZ and by extension ODDin got muddled and yours got clearer, I went with you.

Speaking of which, all you crazy kids who are looking for a wagon with actual reasons behind it, come on in, the water's fine...

[Scien]

I find the fact that Amished indicated "seeing what Vito was possibly on to" (paraphrased) to be slightly suspicious, as I doubted very much that Vito had anything up his sleeve.

I quote this for truth. Did you ever say what PapaZ was 'possibly up to', Amished? Sorry if you did, I am in catchup mode.

A wrong impression was created regarding PZ's reason for voting SC. The impression was that he was voting based on a case. The truth (if we are to believe PZ) is that he was "serious" only in choosing to create a bandwagon - the reasons for chosing the candidate at hand weren't really serious (although I'd point you to SC's post 284, which nicely points out that even this interpretation is to be doubted).

But if we assume that this is the truth, we must ask ourselves why was this wrong impression created. I talked about this in post 281. I think PZ has a conscious hand in creating this false impression - at least in that he avoided telling us his reason for voting SC, although it must have been obvious to him that he'd be asked that.

Ok... can I ask you a question? Let's say YOU are in early game, and decide to bandwagon someone for pressure. When questioned about it do you A) say you have a reason? If you give a reason it will likely relieve pressure because it will be easilly refuted as weak. Or do you B) claim that you did it just for the bandwagon pressure. This would take all pressure off totally. The middle way is to claim you have reasons, but not share them. I've seen it done before, and believe it is pretty common.

I can see truth in what PapaZ is claiming. Not only that, but it is what I would expect from a person claiming he did as he did. Anything else would be weaker play. I can't see how you would expect otherwise in this situation.

[end page 12 still catching up]

[Raskol]

Sando ignored my question, which makes baby jesus sad.

Unvote

vote: Sando

[Zorblag]

@Sando, you be right, Troll hasn't ever given a particularly strong case against you. Actually, Troll no has a particularly strong case against you or anyone else yet. Here be some reasons that Troll be voting for you:

The amount of complaining that people were asking for reads and votes rather than simlpy doing what you said you were doing, sharing opinions. It was an easy thing to make go away and yet you seemed to encourage it which made it a distraction.

The whole idea that asking for reads be scummy strikes Troll as scummy. Trying to construe early requests for who you find scummy to be constant requests and ones that assume you no will have any reasons to give seems ridiculous.

When it comes down to it you still be interacting almost exclusively with those that be attacking you and SerialClergyman. Your play do be a large focus of what be happening so being largely aware of that no be too surprising, but Troll no can think of a time when you even mentioned the whole Papa Zito early SRS BSNS issue for example.

On the whole it be a matter of the connections and the potential for connections that Troll sees. You no be branching out and exploring the whole game and there be what feels to Troll like some dwelling on the unimportant to keep others drawn in. Perhaps with a touch of indignance thrown in. Troll sees a game that looks more like it has a scum shape than a town shape.

Really though, we be getting to the end of the day, Troll no be any more sure that someone else be scum and you be our most viable wagon. Troll strongly believes that we want a lynch so Troll's vote will stay on you for that reason alone.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Amished]

@Sando: Your asking for town-read from SC is a null-tell for me now, cause I do believe you would do that as town as well. Mostly, I still dislike how you overreacted when you first posted; when I wasn't even voting for you. The misrepresentation of what was said by me (and Raskol, IIRC) is still what jumps out the most out of everybody. Since then, you've been much more passive. I think that's indicative of you trying to back off in a self-preservation tactic.

@Scien: Yes, I thought that SC was going to try to set up pushing for a PR claim early in the game. I didn't like him explaining that he pushes for claims early. I feel the motivation behind that type of post is to make them look less scummy later on for pushing the idea. I feel that it's more likely that a townie would suggest it, and list their reasoning why a claim would be beneficial (and related to the current game) when you actually push for a massclaim. Regardless, I don't think SC ever said anything in response to my question: "What's the motivation of saying that you push for massclaims early?" I don't see how the answer can be anything *but* "I didn't want myself to look scummy when I'll likely push for it by talking about it now".

[SerialClergyman]

"What's the motivation of saying that you push for massclaims early?" I don't see how the answer can be anything *but* "I didn't want myself to look scummy when I'll likely push for it by talking about it now".

Because ekim came along with ground rules on how to claim that I disagreed with? What was your motivation for saying that you don't believe in meta? Not for some elaborate dismissal of all meta arguments against you, presumably, but because there was a theory discussion which you had an opinion on.

[Ojanen]

@Amished: I did not pick up the idea marker indicative of joke when reading through at first. Perhaps I then failed at contextual reading in light of the previous Serial post, but there was also a bunch of general Serial playstyle talk on that page. Since you think "Only scum benefit from this kind of information" about Sando asking other peoples' townreads, it would still seem a pretty anti-town thing to make a not-that-obvious joke about looking from your perspective.

The following seem like a contradiction. Any clarifications?

However, I rarely use meta (and think it's overall pretty worthless) so don't expect me to really take too much meta discussion. Any smart player can mess with their meta just enough to trick anybody; and I respect all of you as players so I really don't think it'll be an effective usage of time. You can find meta to fit any situation that you want to; so I'd rather take this game as it's own entity.

I meant that I've never played nor read a game of Sando/AGar/ODDin. I've read one or two of the rest of you that I haven't played with; or played with them. I like to get a feel for how active they are, primarily, and look for a super gambit or something. If they're just solid, that's fine too and I like reading the games.