Mini 880 - Mini Quick and Dirty - Game Over

[ODDin]

I will now reread the last pages and try to decide more decently what I think of Amished and Sando.

But before I'll answer Raskol's very interesting question:

hat said, for ODDin and Sando, a question for both of you: if you had an awesome one-shot day-vig power that could only be used in thread right now, would you use it? Whom would you use it on?

This is, as I've said, a very interesting question. I'm not sure enough that anybody at this point is scum in a high enough level. That being said, we all agree that nolynching D1 is bad. So, as a logical extension to the question, if the town has the ability to make two lynches on D1 (and only on D1) - should the town use this power, or choose to make only a single lynch?
I think the answer to this extended question would still be no. A single lynch is important because it gives town information on a player chosen by the town. However, on D1 the chances of getting scum aren't too good. I think lynching 2 people would mean the price in probable townie lives outweighs the info.
And since I answer "no" to the extension, obviously i'd answer "no" to the original question - I don't feel at the moment that the town is maknig a huge mistake and that I'm the only one who sees the light. But it's theory. There's a balance between townie lives and gaining info. My opinion may be wrong. I mean, we all know that nolycnhing day 1 is bad for town, but in a vacuum, I'm not sure I'd immediately understand that on my own.

I hope that satisfies you.

However, why did you ask this only of me and Sando? Why isn't this question directed at the entire town?

[charlatan]

That's a good point. I wonder: is it possible to be serious about wanting a bandwagon to grow and not really serious with who the target is? To expect a seriously productive outcome from something only slightly more than random? That does help clarify where those criticisms are coming from.

IMO, it's possible, but you'd need to at least vaguely fake a reason. It seems like there was a weak reason, but the case itself wasn't the point.

I can understand where you're coming from. I think it's mostly a strategy question; I can see instances in which all varying levels of reasoning for a bandwagon could be useful, depending on the intended goal. Intentionally weak cases might draw out people looking for an easy bandwagon, no case at all may cause reactions to gauge, etc. Either way, since it's a theory and tactics kind of direction I can't say it's useful at all in determining your alignment, so I'm going to pursue other avenues. I will note that I find it a useless thing to attack someone over. We've established that you find PZ's wagoneering scummy -- were there any reactions to that attempt at a bandwagon that you also found scummy?

@ODDin: About Raskol's entertaining hypothetical:

For me, if nobody else is even interested, do you mind pretending that you

must

use this hypothetical Day 1 vig kill? The option to opt out of that question with a conservative theory answer about not being bloodthirsty is much less interesting (and much less telling, I think) than asking you to name a name.

The above also goes for Sando.

-

@Troll: On a scale of one to ten, how high would you rate the importance of meta in forming your reads on the overall game?

-

I'm not ignoring it; I thought that your 332 was for something more recent/did it again. Both actions are scummy, but there have been a couple things from ODDin that I've seen that was pro-town which give me pause when I haven't seen *as much* of that from you.

Can you tell me what some of those pro-town actions were? If you've mentioned them along the way and I just haven't noticed it, I'd still appreciate us having a bite-sized synopsis on the table.

[ODDin]

Ok... can I ask you a question? Let's say YOU are in early game, and decide to bandwagon someone for pressure. When questioned about it do you A) say you have a reason? If you give a reason it will likely relieve pressure because it will be easilly refuted as weak. Or do you B) claim that you did it just for the bandwagon pressure. This would take all pressure off totally. The middle way is to claim you have reasons, but not share them. I've seen it done before, and believe it is pretty common.

Me, I don't lie as town. I will admit my actual reasons if directly asked. I believe that the loss of pressure on the intended wagon outweighs the confusion that will be caused by me lying (or deliberately hiding stuff) as townie.
Seeing that early wagons are mostly a method for generating discussion (the specific avenue the discussion takes is less relevant), then it doesn't matter much if the discussion switches from the intended wagon to my reasons for the vote.

-------

We've established that you find PZ's wagoneering scummy -- were there any reactions to that attempt at a bandwagon that you also found scummy?

You mean, from other people? No. I find VP's reacton (the most vehement one) to be perfectly normal. I understand what she thought and agree with most of her points. Other people didn't really react quite so much to this, and no, I didn't see anything special here.
However, I'll say once again: the whole thing between SC/PZ/VP is NOT my main reason for voting PZ.

@ODDin: About Raskol's entertaining hypothetical:

For me, if nobody else is even interested, do you mind pretending that you must use this hypothetical Day 1 vig kill? The option to opt out of that question with a conservative theory answer about not being bloodthirsty is much less interesting (and much less telling, I think) than asking you to name a name.

Actually, I find the original question more interesting. Regardless, my name is my vote. I think PZ is the most scummy person around at the moment (I still think so after the reread I've just finished doing - I'll post my thoughts on this reread after this post).
So, this question boils down to "who do you think is scummiest". Which really doesn't need to be asked via weird hypothetical vig powers.

[SerialClergyman]

Which really doesn't need to be asked via weird hypothetical vig powers.

Not quite true - the advantage of a vig shot is you don't need to convince anyone. So it's really more a question of who would you knock out of the game without needing any evidence or convincing.

[ODDin]

Okay, my opinions on Sando, Amished and some other issues.

Sando.

First, he's attacking people for askin him for opinions and then seems to invent weird reasons why it's scummy why that's not what he did, why whatever it is he's trying to say. Somewhat scummy, as it could be a way to avoi discussion and attempt to not participate in the game (not give opinions on people) while seemingly doing stuff. However, seeing that nothing that terribly important was going on in the game at the time, I don't see how avoiding to say his opinions would be all that helpful to Sando-scum. Actually sharing his opinions, and not being so aggressive over nothing would've been not only more helpful but also easier. So, while it is scummy, it's only a little scummy in my eyes.

Then, he seems a bit too relaxed about the fact that he has good chances of being the D1 lynch. Again, not scummy, just weird. I wonder how invested he is in the game.

All in all - a bit scummy, but mostly it feels he's not really in touch with the game.

Amished

I disagree with most of the original case as presented by SC. Post 291 by Amished really makes perfect sense to me.
The point brought up later by Ojanen has a bit more merit, though. It does seem like Amished is using a certain argument selectively for Sando, and not for me. Even if he thought I had other redeeming factors, I'd expect him to at least mention it at one point or another. Later he seems indecisive over whether he missed my post, or didn't miss it but thoguht I was more townie. If he didn't miss it, I'd expect him to mention it somewhere. Not necessarily vote me over it - but if there's something which is the MAIN reason for you voting for X, and it also applies to Y, you should say so. It's not like you're only bringing up scum-tells against the person you're voting for.
However,

@Sando: Your asking for town-read from SC is a null-tell for me now, cause I do believe you would do that as town as well.

Where exactly did this come from? What caused you to change your mind? I don't get it.

All in all - slightly scummy with the town-tells as argument issue. A bit more scummy than Sando in my eyes at the moment.

Misc

Post 259 by SC flared a red light. Seems like SC is knows Sando is town, or simply heavily defending him? Either way, don't like.

Since it was already brought up, I'll explain my asking for SC's town-tells. I didn't really want the town tells. I wanted for him to scum hunt. What I meant was that if nothing else, he might at least share his town-tells - although I'd rather have him finding scum-tells.

Zorblag: Could you pretty please stop with the Troll speak? Your posts consistently take me thrice as much time to read as all the other posts... I mean, I tried to get used to it and all, but I'm afraid I just can't.

[ODDin]

Not quite true - the advantage of a vig shot is you don't need to convince anyone. So it's really more a question of who would you knock out of the game without needing any evidence or convincing.

Let's assume I'm town with no special power role info (it's day 1). Now I HAVE to kill somebody. Naturally, I shall kill the one I find scummiest. Sure, perhaps there are cases where killing somebody I don't find scummiest can somehow help, but at the moment I can't even hypothetically think of such a situation (perhaps if it could somehow generate a guaranteed living townie, but I can't see how it could do that).

So, all I see here is "who do you find scummiest?".

[SerialClergyman]

Naturally, I shall kill the one I find scummiest.

Well, that's a poor option.

I'd kill the scummiest player who would be hard to lynch.

Imagine the player you thought was scummiest was l-1 with a lot of others asking him to claim. Would you use your vig on the scummiest player then?

[SerialClergyman]

As for me and sando - I believe sando to be town, I've told you why.

Awesome of you for asking me to give my town reads and then saying you think that my town read was heavily defending him and scummy.

I think a sando lynch is a bad lynch, I think people should move off of sando and preferably onto Amished.

[ODDin]

Well, that's a poor option.

I'd kill the scummiest player who would be hard to lynch.

Imagine the player you thought was scummiest was l-1 with a lot of others asking him to claim. Would you use your vig on the scummiest player then?

Er, you're right, I guess it was a poor option and I didn't think it through enough. In the described situation, you're probably correct - otherwise I'd be forcng the town to scramble for a poor second rate lynch.
However, I'm not sure I see the relevance to the game. What info has been gleaned from my answer, and from the fact that my original answer was, in fact, a poor one? (Altough in this specific case, PZ is still the better choice, as he is both my top suspect and not the intended lynch)

Awesome of you for asking me to give my town reads and then saying you think that my town read was heavily defending him and scummy.

What I'm saying is that the wording of your post made me feel likeyou know Sando's alignment for a fact. I think it was this phrase that really mad me itch:

In short, look past the words (and his words will generally do their best to catch your eye ) and look at the position and the scumhunting, I think that's the key to finding sando's alignment.

There's also a slight vibe of Sando defending you back which reinforces my feelings in this direction. I'm getting the overall impression you two are defending one another.
Then again, you know each other IRL, so it might be atributed to that. So I guess I shouldn't be putting too much stock into this.

[Ojanen]

Deadline is November 23rd. At 11:59pm est.

That is like in less than 20 hours guys.
AGar's sig says V/LA through 23rd.
VP is V/LA and didn't leave a vote.
Papa Zito and Oddin are not on wagons, everyone else non-V/LA is.
Sando is on L-2. Amished is on L-4.
If we intend to have time for claiming or anything something needs to happen now. Papa Zito and Oddin should pick wagons.
I find Amished scummier, but I will switch to Sando if Amished wagon goes nowhere, and I can't hang around just before the deadline.

[Sando]

When it comes down to it you still be interacting almost exclusively with those that be attacking you and SerialClergyman.

This is constantly being thrown at me, I attacked Amished, he responded to me, I started the argument between us, how am i merely responding to his questions?

Really though, we be getting to the end of the day, Troll no be any more sure that someone else be scum and you be our most viable wagon. Troll strongly believes that we want a lynch so Troll's vote will stay on you for that reason alone.

So you're basically divorcing yourself from responsibility for a vote/lynch? You accuse me of general apathy and a lack of engagement, yet are voting someone that you admit you don't really have a case on, and only because there's noone better. Sounds hypocritical in the extreme, and divorcing yourself from responsibility is extremely scummy, you sound like you're setting up a defence for when the person you lynch flips town of 'well I only did it because noone else was available'.

Since then, you've been much more passive. I think that's indicative of you trying to back off in a self-preservation tactic.

You do realise that I've attacked nearly all of your posts, right? Passive, you're calling me passive, in this game, with all the other players being generally apathetic, as you've said youself, harsh.

@Raskol
Oh, that question, yeah I missed until Oddin just quoted it now. Why am I answering a hypothetical question about a role that does not exist afaik?

But anyways, if I was a normal 1 shot vig, no, I wouldn't kill anyone today. As a 1 shot vig who can only kill on D1, which seems to be what you're asking, I doubt I'd kill anyone. Initially I thought it was just another oportunity for a pro-towner to lynch someone, but then when thinking about it, the major advantage of lynching on D1 isn't so much who you lynch, but how the lynch occured. You wouldn't get that information from me vig killing someone, and I'm not so sure that I'd trust my lone judgement. It's unlikely that a lynch on D1 will hit scum, hence newbies often call for no-lynch, but it's the information that it provides that is vital. A D1 vig kill is just as unlikely, or even more so, and doesn't provide much information.

Charlatan, are you asking that if I was 100% forced to kill someone today, who would it be? I think I'd go for a middle of the road, fairly apathetic, fairly objective person that is really hard to get a read on, but isn't really providing a huge amount of info, and is kinda of skirting the issues without doing anything overtly scummy. This would make the person very hard to out as scum, and while useful in their posting, the hard to get a read on makes the dangerous at all stages. If forced to kill someone, probably Zorblag for those reasons, I think he most fits the bill. He's not scummy, but I don't have faith that I'll get a read on him by the time it's crucial, and while I wouldn't want to vig kill him, it'd be my reasoning if forced to.

Why are we discussing a hypothetical of a role that as far as I know doesn't exist?

Then, he seems a bit too relaxed about the fact that he has good chances of being the D1 lynch. Again, not scummy, just weird. I wonder how invested he is in the game.

I'm fairly bemused by my seemingly inevitable lynch, but no, I'm not a happy chappy about what seems like a fairly inevitable lynch. Troll's reason for lynching me is a case in point, what the hell am I meant to say to it? I attacked someone for what I perceived them as asking for, and got attacked for it in return. I answered as best I could and went about my business, and I've been questioning things from others that are completely unrelated to me. Troll has stated that he's voting me simply because there's noone better to vote, what am I supposed to say to that?

There's also a slight vibe of Sando defending you back which reinforces my feelings in this direction. I'm getting the overall impression you two are defending one another.

I don't think I've ever said anything pro-town about Serial this game. I haven't overtly attacked him, but I've questioned his town reads, and then further pushed his response. I think I also stated that the meta on him is slightly scum, I think he tends to be a fair bit more aggressive than this, but then considering what I think is a general apathy in the game, I'm not sure how much stock I can put in this.

I'm not sure where you're getting the me defending him from though.

[SerialClergyman]

Rrggh. This is why I was complaining about activity earlier, it's a pretty low info lynch. We all knew the activity rules before we started.

Lynch amished. He has much better chance of flipping scum, and his wagoners can't hide as easily. If Sando flips town like I think he will, everyone will all pat each other on the back and shrug saying it was inevitable but it's not, he actually hasn't done much that would benefit scum at all. All you people, pz included, who feel it's legitimate to start a wagon on nothing to see who jumps on - amished jumped on, not Sando. Plus when he did jump on, he said he saw the reason yet when pz lost interest he barely gave that reason a second thought.

He is a better lynch than Sando, get it done.

Oddin, I sound this way about my town reads because there is no point having a town read on someone who is lynched and flips town. Some wagons are just worse than others. There are better lynches than Sando.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, guys, I realize deadline is close and i fully intend to catch up in this game and vote before it passes. I was traveling yesterday and had a few other games that were in the same situation as this one, except closer to deadline. i won't leave you hanging today though, so don't fret.

Going to start a quick reread now.

[ODDin]

With these two as my choices, I'd go with lynching Amished, though I'd really like to hear his response to my question there. Today I should be able to check the game regularly enough to vote pretty close to the deadline.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, caught up. I think I'm going to oblige SC this game. His case against Amished wasn't extremely moving, but there is something about Amished's play this game that isn't quite sitting right with me. I don't generally vote on gut reasons alone, but I'm rather pressed for time atm and Sando's latest bout of stamping his feet posting is nagging at me as honest.

I don't know if I'll be around at deadline, but if I am and Amished isn't going to happen I will switch to Sando.

Unvote, Vote: Amished

[SerialClergyman]

[SerialClergyman]

That might be a bit ambiguous - I should explain that VP and I seem to be in a lot of games together, and I have a lot of respect for his ability, but we do seem to disagree quite a bit

I suppose it doesn't help that we haven't been the same alignment in a completed game yet.

Either way, to actually have him on my side is strangely disconcerting...

[VP Baltar]

haha, I knew you would be surprised.

[Papa Zito]

Deadline approacheth.

@Papa Zito, why do you think that Troll doesn't like the opening you used? Troll be largely indifferent towards it but Troll no recalls actually saying what Troll thought about it at any point, just that Troll found it something Papa Zito would do and that it no helps for a read on Papa Zito.

I misinterpreted your earlier remark, then.

Also, I'd appreciate a scumlist from you at your earliest convenience.

[Zorblag]

First off, Troll will be about at deadline. If moving Troll's vote will make a lynch happen then Troll will do it.

@Charlatan, Troll uses meta for an initial predictor of behavior and as a measure of competence in determining what level of observations be expected and what sorts of mistakes will be made (and hence what the mistakes imply about what knowledge beyond what is said in thread.) At the start of the game when there be so much less to go on it be useful as a starting point when judging those that Troll has seen play before, perhaps a 6 or 6.5 on a scale of 0 to 10. Later on it drops a fair amount as information from the game itself accumulates. Probably to a 2 or 2.5. Troll no has tried to quantify it before but those should be roughly right.

@ODDin, if it still be that much trouble Troll will stop on Day Two until one of Troll or ODDin be dead. It will make Troll sad though.

When it comes down to it you still be interacting almost exclusively with those that be attacking you and SerialClergyman.

This is constantly being thrown at me, I attacked Amished, he responded to me, I started the argument between us, how am i merely responding to his questions?

Where does Troll say there who started your issues with Amished? To be fair Troll does think that any attacking you did started after Amished requested opinions from you which Troll finds your reactions to consistently unhelpful but Troll no was indicating anything of that nature with the sentence you be quoting there.

Really though, we be getting to the end of the day, Troll no be any more sure that someone else be scum and you be our most viable wagon. Troll strongly believes that we want a lynch so Troll's vote will stay on you for that reason alone.

So you're basically divorcing yourself from responsibility for a vote/lynch? You accuse me of general apathy and a lack of engagement, yet are voting someone that you admit you don't really have a case on, and only because there's noone better. Sounds hypocritical in the extreme, and divorcing yourself from responsibility is extremely scummy, you sound like you're setting up a defence for when the person you lynch flips town of 'well I only did it because noone else was available'.

Troll will take Troll's share of responsibility for being early on your bandwagon and staying on it if your lynch happens. In some ways your statement that Troll doesn't really have a case and there's no one better is correct. Troll doesn't have a strong case (though everything Troll did list is something that troubles Troll some) and in many games Troll would expect to have a stronger feel for scum on day one but this game there no be anyone Troll feels is more likely to be scum. Troll no has any better choices than staying on your wagon based on that, yes. If you find that stance hypocritical then so be it.

@Papa Zito, the deadline does draw nigh, yes. You should move your vote to someone who be more likely to be lynched. As far as Troll's scum list goes, Troll be willing to answer, but Troll first wants to confirm that you have seen and read the following posts: Post 90; Post 162; Post 242. If you be making this request because you think that Troll no has been giving town or scum reads throughout the game then you be the third to do so (after Amished and SerialClergyman) when Troll thinks that Troll has been one of the more active posters of suspicions as we go.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Papa Zito]

@Papa Zito, the deadline does draw nigh, yes. You should move your vote to someone who be more likely to be lynched.

I'm actually holding to this:

First off, Troll will be about at deadline. If moving Troll's vote will make a lynch happen then Troll will do it.

.... as well.

As far as Troll's scum list goes, Troll be willing to answer, but Troll first wants to confirm that you have seen and read the following posts: Post 90; Post 162; Post 242. If you be making this request because you think that Troll no has been giving town or scum reads throughout the game then you be the third to do so (after Amished and SerialClergyman) when Troll thinks that Troll has been one of the more active posters of suspicions as we go.

I have indeed read those posts, as well as everything else in the thread.

I'm making the request for a couple reasons. For one I want your suspicions as of the end of the day to be clearly laid out. Your last example was a hundred posts and 7 days ago. If things haven't changed then so be it, I'd still like to see an ordered list.

Secondly, I disagree wholeheartedly that Troll has been actively posting suspicions. When I read your posts dear sir I see a lot of observation and no analysis. Along with those observations I see copious amounts of fence-sitting, in the pattern of "I see X and Y, those could be slightly scummy but I'm not sure." Inb4 hypocrisy.

What I'm driving at here is that you happen to be rather high on my list of suspicions at this point, but I've been neither engaged enough nor active enough to really do anything about it. Which granted is entirely my fault. So the best I can do now is see if you'll stake out a position on something. If I've learned anything over the past few games it's to pay attention to my gut, and my gut's proximity sensors are going WOOP WOOP WOOP every time I read a Zorblag post.

It will make Troll sad though.

Ditto.

[SerialClergyman]

Troll will take Troll's share of responsibility for being early on your bandwagon and staying on it if your lynch happens.

Does this sound like a backhanded apology to anyone else? Kind of like 'I'm sorry that you feel upset over nothing' - a statement that actually conveys the opposite of what it's supposed to?

It looks to me like it's made more to highlight the fact that he was on the wagon early and stayed for a long time rather than show he's prepared to take responsibility.

How do you think your play has been so far, Zorblag?

Zorblag wrote:
It will make Troll sad though.

Ditto.

Double ditto.

More Amished votes please. Snappy irritable responses are not pro-scum behaviour.

PZ - given you're the one who actually USED the gambit, why aren't you voting any one (specifically Amished this close to deadline) who actually went for your gambit and joined your wagon on nothing?

[Zorblag]

@Papa Zito, the difference between Troll's vote right now and your vote right now be that Troll be voting on one of the viable wagons and Papa Zito no be. Waiting till the last minute to take a stand on an issue like this be off. Based on the information we have about who you think be scummy it should be clear where your vote would go. If your suspicions have changed then getting them out sooner rather than later would be more helpful for the town.

As for Troll's posting of suspicions, Troll would ask who you think has done so more than Troll has this game? Papa Zito did give one post giving one line of thoughts on everyone but none of it strikes Troll as any deeper than what Troll has said. Troll has given scum or town reads on any number of people based on the observations that you be talking about.

When did Troll move to high on your list of suspicions? If it was back at Post 272 why just say that you can never read Troll when you were willing to give a scummy rating to others? You have been asking for others thoughts on Troll which Troll suspected would be leading to something; it feels a bit more like testing the waters to see how you wanted your position to lie before committing but Troll wanted to give you time to get to whatever it was you were trying before commenting on it.

Anyhow, Troll's list of the three most likely scum would be: Sando, AGar and Amished in that order.

What would Papa Zito's scum list be?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@SerialClergyman, Sando seemed to be saying that Troll was trying to get out of any responsibility should Sando be lynched. Troll merely be asserting that this no be the case. Sando glossed over all the reasons but one that Troll gave for suspecting him, misinterpreted that one and focused on the final statement.

Externally Troll no be overly impressed by Troll's play this day though Troll does think that Troll be committing to various things more strongly than others seem to think be the case but Troll will often phrase things somewhat mildly. Another game (which Troll believes Troll linked earlier) where Troll played unimpressively day one was Tofu Mafia. There Troll's early play was pretty terrible; Troll thinks that Troll be doing a bit better in this game though. Troll be a bit slow but Troll likes to think that Troll learns over time.

From an internal perspective Troll feels that Troll be making reasonable progress for a day one in terms of gaining what Troll will need to make reads on future days so Troll be happy enough with that.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[charlatan]

Spoiler alert: I don't move my vote in this post.

Thanks to ODDin and Sando for playing along with my corollary to Rasko's original question. I honestly had no specific goal in mind with asking it, I just thought it an interesting question that might help me at least to get inside your heads a bit more.

Sando.

However, seeing that nothing that terribly important was going on in the game at the time, I don't see how avoiding to say his opinions would be all that helpful to Sando-scum.

I see this is as a nulltell, since I don't know how it would be helpful Sando-town, either. My most basic problem with Sando's Day 1 play is, as I've mentioned before, that I think he a) for the most part only interacts with those accusing him, and b) misconstrues attacks against him in a manner that allows him to try and turn them back on his accusers. I do not consider being merely defensive to be a scumtell, but there's more going on here. Townies should have no problem answering questions (or even brash accusations) leveled against them without posting from the assumption that anyone who dares criticize them must themselves be scum. A good example in his recent Zorblag reply:

So you're basically divorcing yourself from responsibility for a vote/lynch? You accuse me of general apathy and a lack of engagement, yet are voting someone that you admit you don't really have a case on, and only because there's noone better. Sounds hypocritical in the extreme, and divorcing yourself from responsibility is extremely scummy, you sound like you're setting up a defence for when the person you lynch flips town of 'well I only did it because noone else was available'.

Firstly, he attacks Troll for the simple admission that he doesn't have a super strong case on anyone Day 1, but Sando has ferociously defended his own right to not having strong opinions, so this seems entirely two-faced. Furthermore, voting someone because "there's no one better" is not scummy in the least and is, in fact, the norm. "No one better" means you're voting for the best lynch candidate. How is that not exactly what we should all be doing? I consider contradiction a very valid scumtell. Sando, do you think what Troll did with his explanation of his vote on you is meaningfully different from your own opinions on having opinions? If so, in what way?

All you people, pz included, who feel it's legitimate to start a wagon on nothing to see who jumps on - amished jumped on, not Sando. Plus when he did jump on, he said he saw the reason yet when pz lost interest he barely gave that reason a second thought.

This is definitely worth noting, however. I said before that Amished's reasoning for jumping on felt contrived, and I do stand by that. Amished's response was that he felt SC was eventually setting himself up to try and draw out inappropriate claims, which I think is a stretch, but it's less of a tell in my mind. People are wrong quite often, and it doesn't typically indicate scum. I will move my vote as we near the deadline if someone pulls ahead of both Sando and Amished, but those are the only two lynches I like for today. Why specific other players do not concern me at this junction is a question I am prepared to answer, but this close to the deadline I think it will only help scum formulate an effective night kill.

There are better lynches than Sando.

Plural? I know you think Amished. Who else?

I feel that it's more likely that a townie would suggest it, and list their reasoning why a claim would be beneficial (and related to the current game) when you actually push for a massclaim.

@Amished, this attack presupposes that SC would not give reasoning in support of his push for a massclaim in the event that he did push for one. Do you disagree?

Also, in regards to ODDin, at least twice that I recall you've mentioned seeing "pro-town actions" from his corner. Can you give some examples?

Secondly, I disagree wholeheartedly that Troll has been actively posting suspicions. When I read your posts dear sir I see a lot of observation and no analysis. Along with those observations I see copious amounts of fence-sitting, in the pattern of "I see X and Y, those could be slightly scummy but I'm not sure." Inb4 hypocrisy.

This was part of what I was dancing around with my meta question before, Troll. It sometimes feels like excusing people based on their meta, which I find questionable. I do not feel it is a big scumtell at this time, but close to a deadline I want to have these things on record.