Open 177 (Monks and Masons) - Game Over.


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Post Post #525 (ISO) » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:39 pm

Post by Scien »

The Facial recognition participation wtf? Vote count


Hewitt - ElectricBadger
Scien - Farside22

Not Voting: Nikanor, Hewitt, Maemuki, Scien, Canada, ODDin, XofElf

Lots of love
Haylxxx



WIFOM... and anytime I get you to try and explain yourself you spout the same thing. WIFOM does not a case make.

You may think my actions are scummy. But if you can't say why, then woop de do. Just saying "Scum move", "Scum move!", "SCUM MOVE!!!!" over and over again doesn't help.

Trying to get you to explain your WIFOM is not a 'old, tired, scummy' move. It's a move to try and get to real discussion.


There is no wishy washy stance here. You are spouting a bad case. I want you to support it and so far you haven't. Why are my moves scummy? Why do you believe my actions scream scum to you, when I could have just as likely thought better of my case on Fuzzy and moved to RBT? There has to be a reason. Why not give it to us?
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Post Post #526 (ISO) » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:41 pm

Post by ElectricBadger »

Gads, this is a game for walls, I guess. Benmage seems to have lots to write but not much to say. Any solid suspects, Ben?
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Post Post #527 (ISO) » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:06 pm

Post by farside22 »

Scien wrote:WIFOM... and anytime I get you to try and explain yourself you spout the same thing. WIFOM does not a case make.

You may think my actions are scummy. But if you can't say why, then woop de do. Just saying "Scum move", "Scum move!", "SCUM MOVE!!!!" over and over again doesn't help.

Trying to get you to explain your WIFOM is not a 'old, tired, scummy' move. It's a move to try and get to real discussion.


There is no wishy washy stance here. You are spouting a bad case. I want you to support it and so far you haven't. Why are my moves scummy? Why do you believe my actions scream scum to you, when I could have just as likely thought better of my case on Fuzzy and moved to RBT? There has to be a reason. Why not give it to us?
you moved from a wagon that had no legs to a wagon that did how is that not scummy?
You have yet to explain this instead you throw up this wall of "well either way I was on a town wagon so your point is invalid" I stated the fuzzy case as valid. He was acting scummy you thought RBT was town then switched.
Case closed
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #528 (ISO) » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:07 pm

Post by Benmage »

ODDin wrote:It will take me some time to read everything Benmage wrote, but here are some responses to things directed to me:
This is what i imagined. I'm trying to do a relatively blank slate read through putting down my sentiments as i read and as it hits me as if i were here initially...My catchup/read thru is both for me to maybe future refer to, and you guys...feel free to skim most or focus on parts on where you guys are mentioned...When i'm done i'm sure i'll make some sort of conclusion/summary and probably re-ask any real important questions that may of been missed.
ODDin wrote:
Benmage wrote:Word. Good point.. Terrible accidental bus tho.. You're buddy, EB, the claimed protagonist of lynch lurkers, hasnt mentioned them...tsk tsk.
I simply don't understand what you mean by this. Care to rephrase?
You + Eb = scum buddies...EB focus'd on lurkers, but has since laxxed on the issue. You bringing up lurkers illustrates his flaw and his really poor "early lurker vote"...its just a minor thing i noticed.
ElectricBadger wrote:Gads, this is a game for walls, I guess. Benmage seems to have lots to write but not much to say. Any solid suspects, Ben?
Oh yeah...Hayl might has well of pm'd me everyones roles, this games an open book.
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Post Post #529 (ISO) » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:26 pm

Post by Benmage »

ODDin wrote:My original vote on you was based on two things:
1) You were far too annoyed and edgy over what seemed to be a not so strong argument. (It's not the argument itself which bothers me - it's the way you handled the discussion around it.)
2) One of your posts made me feel like you're trying to implicitly show how oh-very-town you are.
1. Meh
2. wifom
farside22 wrote:@Oddin: So far you named one game where you saw aggressive scum. Now tell me the number of games where townies are agressive and compare for me.
Do you assume all scum is aggressive?
This is a good question.
ODDin wrote:it makes me feel like you were trying to get across the point of "look how town I am".
DING DING DING....how about all the times Scien as literally called himself town. Bam
Haylen wrote:
Looking for a replacement for YamiJoey and YankCrane. Zazie will be replaced if he does not pick up his prod. I know he's been online >.>
She fails at life.
Canada wrote:Will do. Not that good at the game yet, so I probably won't notice subtleties, and with probably be relying on the posts of the rest of you to point them out, but I'll do my best!

~Canada
:roll:

Scumms gonna be pissed i replaced in 8-)
ElectricBadger wrote:No worries, long as you read and post and try to reason things out you'll do fine. Just be sure to let us know if you're mafia, that helps simplify the game a lot.
EB where again did you say you’re mafia?
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Post Post #530 (ISO) » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:00 pm

Post by Benmage »

ElectricBadger wrote:Hmm. I don't think you intended to claim that you're town because you're aggressive; I think you were indeed just responding to a question. However, it provides a legitimate insight into your reasoning for playing so aggressively.

Does that make sense?
Legitimately wifom. Not only wifom, but wifom based on interpretation...which one could say, wifom based on wifom.
ODDin wrote: 1) I noticed a worrying thing about hewitt. He's acting very cautiously, he says he doesn't want to vote until he's certain that someone should be lynched. All the while he says he feels there's nothing to comment on and that the farside/scien discussion hurt the game. He must have realised that good discussion and strong arguments won't just come out of the underbrush singing songs. They need to be made. If he's town, then it's in his best interest to try to get better arguments. Yet he's not doing such an effort. Fine, he's reluctant to use his vote for that end (although it could've been useful, I think) - but how about asking questions? He says he finds farside scummiest, but he doesn't question her, he doesn't try to push her, pin her down, anything of the sort, to get better arguments. He's not really pressing anyone else either. He seems content enough sitting in the corner.
This is damn good.. Well thought out. Correct even... its a shame you're scum and hes town. You're playing better.
ODDin wrote: 2) At one point Fuzzy said he's going to reply to my questions just after he got an answer from farside. While the significance and relevance of these questions is lower now, it's still worthy to note that he didn't, actually, answer them at any point.
Did you ask it of him again? (prior to this statement)
ODDin wrote: 4) Post 235 by Nik and the ensuing discussion is disturbing me quite a bit. He's answering instead of me for things directed specifically at me and defending me. This looks an awful lot like buddying.
It's okay if you're town and think farside's arguments against me are wrong - but I'd expect you to wait for me to answer before saying anything. Otherwise, you're basically handing me a defence. What if I'm scum and these statements by farside would've tripped me and caused me to slip up?
This is very poor scumhunting there.
AHAHA i cant believe i came across this again! (ok) The last part is true, only because you're scum and Nik (meh, we'll go with isnt at the moment(point is you two arent same scum team)) Now my point is hilarious. I just did this same sort've buddying..answering (obvious questions) for others in a recent game mini 842. Now i did so on a fellow town. Well scum and bad townies jumped all over me for doing so in some awful wifom buddying argument. Like you're doing here... Its just personally funny because you're scum and this is the second time i'm seeing scum use this argument in an attempt to push a case on a townie(opposing alignment). (scum should really stick to the lurker/active lurker strat...works well)
ODDin wrote: 1. I feel that being overly agitated and annoyed over small and not so significant arguments is scummy. This is partly because I feel one wouldn't normally get so agitated over it, making me feel the agitation might be artificial and not genuine.
2. Town don't generally feel the need to assert their towniness without provocation, and don't implicitly or explicitly say "I'm town, I'm town" when it isn't called for. This isn't a "too towny" argument - far from it. There's a huge difference between "looking very townie" and "consciously trying to look very townie".
1. Can you show me where she was "overly agitated and annoyed" i really didnt get this huge aggressive feeling.
2. Wowwww. L2read Scien. I rescind EB+Oddin team. They're both scum but i forgot theres two teams. Scien+Oddin = a team. (Psssst Oddin, its good to read your partners posts and not merely skim them...hell a bus or two wouldnt hurt your cause either...but its too late for this game.)
ODDin wrote:It isn't, on its own, a terribly strong argument - because I can't, at this point, be sure that you're lying. It's a possibility to keep in mind. And it was important, IMO, for the rest of the town to be aware of the possibility. Knowing a new option is never a bad thing. People were given brains to decide for themselves whether that option is reasonable or not.

Also, I am not taking the "you must be scum approach". I'm taking the "you might be scum for all I know and this here could be a scummy thing to do" approach, which I take for everyone, naturally.

You say it's not scumhunting? Fine. Think so if you wish. In my personal opinion I'm doing quite enough scumhunting here.
Wah wah wah ( :cry: :cry: :cry: ) AtE much? There was another post of Oddins where all i felt was boohoo prior to the one i did point out. Now i wish i did for all 3 reference.

This guys trying to walk on eggshells and be switzerland too much.
ODDin wrote: 9) Once again I would like you to pay attention how farside is making
much ado about nothing.
Ooo good play(musical?).
farside22 wrote:When a comment like I made can be skewed to be a interptation of hey look I'm agressive so I must be town or scum and you point to it as scum while saying all my points I made had merit but you find my aggression scummy because of another game I find you not to be scum hunting but using excuses to buy a vote.
Word, this.
Riceballtail wrote: That said, ODD is definitely scum. Farside/Scien cannot be in the same faction, but could still both be scum.

VOTE:ODDin
The first part of this quote which i didnt quote is bad. This part however is. True n True.
Wulfy wrote: 4. For your argument to be legitimate, you would have to actually go back and prove that no reasons exists (or are not arbitrarily fabricated) so that you can reason that it is truly an OMGUS vote. Damn, you think people would learn this in novice games.

RBT: Your idea is awful. Day 1 claim in this setup might not be bad, but it's not game winning and gives scum more information than town gains. Actually, it just gets worse the more I think about it.
Champ.
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Post Post #531 (ISO) » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:18 pm

Post by Benmage »

farside22 wrote: 1) I said something at the time you did it but I was still content with my vote on scien at the time.
2) yet your vote is still on me and you seem happy with your vote making it seem your "case" is more solid then it is.
Farside is owning oddin (alliteration?) in this exchange.
Scien wrote:I'm having a very hard time getting my footing in this game. So much 'meh' to wade through. That's my problem, not your guy's. You guys aren't doing anything wrong.
This dudes dodgin eggshells too.

And isnt all the crap to wade through 50% his...Shouldn't he have most of it down, knowing his exhange and knowing farsides damn well too, thats like 85% of the thread right there...good excuse to start active lurk mode.
hewitt wrote:
Vote: fuzzyman


Yes I have good reasoning and if you think hard enough you should be able to come to the conclusion as to why yourself. But in the chance that it could be used against me by scum I will withhold it for the moment.
:?
ODDin wrote: As town, you're not supposed to make things a guessing game. You're supposed to make it easier for town to understand your arguments - so that they can analyse you more easily (and if you're town, that's a good thing for you) and so they can see whether they agree to those arguments themselves.

Even if you think your arguments aren't new, sharing them will at least make it clear what you think - what you agree with, what you don't agree with, etc. Later on in the game, it will help us analyse things since we'll know what you thought about people.
Oooh ooo i got something juicy...its comming to me. Okay. This is what, a town "definition" from you....Would you say you've acted this way? So this could i guess be...you subtly asserting you're towness. Aren't you accusing something quite similar to this on farside.... 8-)
Fuzzyman wrote: I bet that since I'm leading in votes right now, this'll be an OMGUS, too.

Vote: farside22
Fuzzyman wrote:Or maybe it can be more buddying with ODDin, because he's incidentally voting for her too.
Buddying is wifom, both town and scum do it. Just call people dumb when they push the buddying case.
Riceballtail wrote:I am seeing Fuzzy as a likely scum; if so, 80% chance of ODDin buddy.

(We can see your AtE. It doesn't work here.)
Goddamnit! I dislike RBT, whys he gotta post logic.
Wulfy wrote: Mae is skitting by without posting much.

Unvote; Vote Mae


Come back and play.
QFT
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Post Post #532 (ISO) » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:20 pm

Post by Benmage »

Okay..its late, i'm goin to bed. Got about a third more to catchup. The games getting less wally and more juicy, i like :wink: .

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Post Post #533 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:40 am

Post by Scien »

Farside wrote:You have yet to explain [moving your vote] instead you throw up this wall of "well either way I was on a town wagon so your point is invalid" I stated the fuzzy case as valid. He was acting scummy you thought RBT was town then switched.
No. I explained already. I was going try and convince people that Fuzzy was the better info lynch of the two. When I was going back and formulating my post, I thought a bit more about math, and thought that RBT would be the better target from the two since she was not claiming to be in a M/M pair (due to statistics). I said this way back when, in the post where I switched my vote. You claiming I didn't is odd.

No for your other point as well. You changed your position since, but one of your original claims against me is that I was reluctant to vote RBT because you suspected I knew he was town, and I was afraid to push hard for a townie. This was not a valid point, I was trying to push for what we now know as a townie lynch in Fuzzy while you suggest I had this fear.

Soooo. You say my switch was scummy. I say I changed my mind due to math. Why do you believe you are right? What points to me having scum motives? Answer so far? Silence.

That's because your 'case closed' case is nothing but WIFOM at the moment.
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Post Post #534 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:10 am

Post by Haylen »

XofElf has been prodded
Seriously. Read your role PM before playing.
I am sorry if you have to prod me, I have absolutely no concept of time.

My prefered pronoun set is "cie/cir/cirs[elf]" but they is more than acceptable.
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Post Post #535 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:46 am

Post by farside22 »

Scien wrote:
Farside wrote:You have yet to explain [moving your vote] instead you throw up this wall of "well either way I was on a town wagon so your point is invalid" I stated the fuzzy case as valid. He was acting scummy you thought RBT was town then switched.
No. I explained already. I was going try and convince people that Fuzzy was the better info lynch of the two. When I was going back and formulating my post, I thought a bit more about math, and thought that RBT would be the better target from the two since she was not claiming to be in a M/M pair (due to statistics). I said this way back when, in the post where I switched my vote. You claiming I didn't is odd.

No for your other point as well. You changed your position since, but one of your original claims against me is that I was reluctant to vote RBT because you suspected I knew he was town, and I was afraid to push hard for a townie. This was not a valid point, I was trying to push for what we now know as a townie lynch in Fuzzy while you suggest I had this fear.

Soooo. You say my switch was scummy. I say I changed my mind due to math. Why do you believe you are right? What points to me having scum motives? Answer so far? Silence.

That's because your 'case closed' case is nothing but WIFOM at the moment.
No your using WIFOM to sweep your actions under the rug
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #536 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:56 am

Post by farside22 »

Again scien this was your comment before you switched
Scien wrote:
^ I think that this is a stretch. I made the same one.

Between this comment, and the immediate vote for fuzzy on Hewitt's claim, I was under the impression that the 'I want to see masons/monks flip' was a motivation for the vote. However when I questioned about it, RBT immediately said that she never said she wanted to lynch the m/ms. Going back and trying to prove her wrong, I couldn't find her pushing this reason for her vote ever.

It's an assumption, and a decent one, but its not very concrete. You think the assumption is strong enough to lynch RBT over?

Assuming the assumption is correct, why is it more likely that RBT is scum, over just wanting to pursue bad play?

IMO, I think a fuzzy lynch would give us more information over a RBT lynch. I think I am sticking with my vote.
Suddenly you change your mind on this view and agree it was scummy enough to vote. You changed your mind on reasoning I gave and backtracked. Your now using WIFOM to sweep that under the rug
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #537 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:32 am

Post by Scien »

Right... read my post where I voted RBT. I said I changed my mind in it, due to math among other things.

And if you can't say why I'm so scummy and can only repeat over and over that I am scummy then, quite frankly this is pointless. You are pushing nothing.
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Post Post #538 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:49 am

Post by farside22 »

Scien wrote:Right... read my post where I voted RBT. I said I changed my mind in it, due to math among other things.

And if you can't say why I'm so scummy and can only repeat over and over that I am scummy then, quite frankly this is pointless. You are pushing nothing.
Backtracking is scummy. Voting on a BW for weak reason that you stated early wasn't that scummy is scummy.
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #539 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:45 am

Post by Scien »

1) It's not back tracking if no one is accusing me of wrong doing.
2) I never said he wasn't scummy. I said in the post you quoted that I thought that one was the better lynch. That's not the same as saying that one is looking townie to me.
3) This vote had town motives. You are just pretending that it could have only been scum motivated.
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Post Post #540 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:39 am

Post by ODDin »

Benmage: I can live with you thinking I'm scum. What disturbs me quite a bit is that you seem certain that hewitt is town. Why is that? I'll admit to not reading everything you said yet (I shall eventually, don't worry), so perhaps you've explained it and I didn't see it. But why are you being so certain that hewitt is town?
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Post Post #541 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:48 am

Post by Benmage »

ODDin wrote:Benmage: I can live with you thinking I'm scum. What disturbs me quite a bit is that you seem certain that hewitt is town. Why is that? I'll admit to not reading everything you said yet (I shall eventually, don't worry), so perhaps you've explained it and I didn't see it. But why are you being so certain that hewitt is town?
It was an early gut read. I think i call him a VT. Mason still works. The mason thing and fuzzy flips makes me actually less sure of him. I'm not all the way caught up, and nothing is ever absolute in mafia. But i have a town read on the guy, yes.
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Post Post #542 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:56 am

Post by ODDin »

Benmage wrote:its a shame you're [me] scum and hes [hewitt] town
That's a pretty damn strogn statement for an "early gut read".
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Post Post #543 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:20 am

Post by Benmage »

ODDin wrote:
Benmage wrote:its a shame you're [me] scum and hes [hewitt] town
That's a pretty damn strogn statement for an "early gut read".
The early gut read remained with his continual play. He isn't nearly as strong town, as you are scum.
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Post Post #544 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:43 am

Post by farside22 »

Scien wrote:1) It's not back tracking if no one is accusing me of wrong doing.
2) I never said he wasn't scummy. I said in the post you quoted that I thought that one was the better lynch. That's not the same as saying that one is looking townie to me.
3) This vote had town motives. You are just pretending that it could have only been scum motivated.
1. What do you think I'm doing here?
2. Did you actually call him scum in the statment I quoted? No in fact you asked me why I felt strong on it
3) I'm not the one that backtracked my comments and voted on RBT after the BW started.
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #545 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:56 am

Post by Scien »

1) You said I back tracked back then. Were you telling me I shouldn't have been pushing for Fuzzy then? No? Then I wasn't backtracking there.

You are suggesting I am backtracking now? How? I have been consistent in my views I believe.

2) Right. Because I felt that Fuzzy was the better lynch in that post. When thinking about statistics above what I was feeling, I decided to switch. It was in the post where I switched.

3) See 1.
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Post Post #546 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:17 am

Post by Benmage »

ElectricBadger wrote:
ODDin wrote:Also, the argument isn't based on a different game.
Asserting one's towniness without provocation is a scum-tell.
The question at hand is whether your post on aggressive scum was, in fact, implied assertion of your towniness or not.
This is a misrepresentation. Farside's comment was a response to a question, not an unprovoked claim. Although extrapolation from it is interesting, it's largely WIFOM; pushing it this hard as a scum tell is bad. Condemning farside for being too aggressive countering your hard push of a weak argument is hypocrisy.

I went back over farside and although she's playing incredibly aggressive I don't see particular scum tells within it. I think people are more distracted with
how
she's presenting evidence than
what
she's saying. It does, however, mean that she needs to be taken in perspective.

Not to say I have a town read. I'm still not sure of the reasoning behind her aggressive play. But I don't see her as a good lynch today, if for no other reason than that she seems a useful nexus of discussion.
This is good. Yeah you and Oddin aint buddies for sure.
hewitt wrote:
farside22 wrote:Hewitt's vote on Fuzzy and reasoning just looks opportunistic
My vote on Fuzzy isn't opportunistic at all. It's actually the most original and makes the most sense out of all votes on him right now, considering I'm a town Mason with him and although he's confirmed not Mafia I'm pretty damn sure he's a Werewolf.
this is your whole argument? :?
Riceballtail wrote:
hewitt wrote:My vote on Fuzzy isn't opportunistic at all. It's actually the most original and makes the most sense out of all votes on him right now, considering I'm a town Mason with him and although he's confirmed not Mafia I'm pretty damn sure he's a Werewolf.
Probably don't need Monks to claim today.

UNVOTE;VOTE:Fuzzy
terrible.
hewitt wrote: We did not get a chance to talk pre-game. I don't really have particular reasoning to believe that Fuzzyman is scum but I'm getting nothing out of anybody else and since there's a theme in this game that one Mason is town and the other is scum and I know I'm town I have a 50% chance (I think) that he's werewolf. It had nothing to do with anybody pointing out my weak play I'm just insanely bored and there's nothing better to go on.
Oh my god, this is awful and unnecessary.
hewitt wrote:I think it might be correct in assuming that just because one Mason flips scum does not mean the other is confirmed town.
Well we got one town….o.O…
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Post Post #547 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:26 am

Post by Benmage »

If you havent caught on yet i'm reading a page and posting my notes on it...page 15 is cluttered with setup speculation. Nothing really worth commenting on...
ODDin wrote: Also, RBT, can you give us detailed and organised cases on myself and Fuzzy, containing ALL of your reasons for thinking that we are scum, individually and together? And if you're not intending to do so, can you explain why you're not intending to do so, and why you think it helps the town for you to accuse people without presenting your arguments against them?
Geeeeze this guy loves assigning work.
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Post Post #548 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:30 am

Post by Scien »

Benmage wrote:
Hewitt wrote:I think it might be correct in assuming that just because one Mason flips scum does not mean the other is confirmed town.
Keep in mind that this statement is now proven false for future information. There can only be one scum role within a given M/M group.

Via:
Mod wrote:There cannot be 2 scumroles in the masons and monks groups, there could, however be one.
One of the parts of that statistics stuff I keep bring up with Farside is the fact that the mod came in and cleared this up not long before I started thinking about statistics again. If a standard player has a 4 chances to get an anti-town role, a given M/M has less than 2 chances. (Less because if their buddy already got one of the anti-town roles they qualified for, they were an invalid target). Given a Fuzzy, RBT lynch either or near end day, I would have went with the non-claimer anyway.
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Post Post #549 (ISO) » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:30 am

Post by farside22 »

Scien wrote:1) You said I back tracked back then. Were you telling me I shouldn't have been pushing for Fuzzy then? No? Then I wasn't backtracking there.

You are suggesting I am backtracking now? How? I have been consistent in my views I believe.

2) Right. Because I felt that Fuzzy was the better lynch in that post. When thinking about statistics above what I was feeling, I decided to switch. It was in the post where I switched.

3) See 1.
1) I'm talking about your backtracking comments on RBT. Stopping acting like I'm talking about fuzzy
2) Backtracking is scummy, talking about it as stats is not helping you in my mind
3) how the hell are you consist when not once you said you found RBT scummy?
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.

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