Mini 880 - Mini Quick and Dirty - Game Over

[Scien]

Am I wrong, or at the time of your post 280, was the only thing he was criticizing you of was supposedly 'agreeing with VP about the scumminess of someone' while keeping your vote on ekiM? If at that point is the only thing that you say is blatantly wrong is calling it a RVS vote, then 'meh'. I think I could have fell for the trap and called a vote you made in your first post, and that you yourself called weak, a RVS vote.

Even if it wasn't a RVS vote his point was that you had a vote for someone that you called weak, when you were agreeing with VP about someone that should have been more scummy than your admittedly weakish case on ekiM. In the posts you are pointing out you focused on him being wrong about the random part. Not on his concern about you sticking with a weakish case over a stronger case. That is if I am reading every thing back there in correct context.

Basically, my conclusion at this point is that your main complaint on him is that he called your vote a RVS vote and you say he was lying because of it. I just don't see it. It's a minor mistake. Weak vote vs random vote.

But you do have a point that he didn't take back that he called it random I guess.

[ODDin]

It's more serious than that. The way he (PZ) put it, my case on him (PZ) was stronger than my case on eKim, yet I didn't change my vote. That's what he (PZ) called scummy.
However, it wasn't so - and this is also a thing I've explicitly said before in the thread, when Amished asked me who I found scummier, and I asnwered eKim, not PZ. (The very beginning of post 200.)
So, it's not only that he said my vote was random when it wasn't - he went on to infer that I didn't vote for a case that I should have felt was stronger (the case on PZ) when I explicitly said that I didn't find it stronger already before.
So, if I'm town, then I shouldn't have lied and say that I find eKim scummier than PZ when it wasn't so. And if I'm scum, it's not like I think in terms of "scummy" and "not scummy" anyway.
So, it's only that he confused "RVS vote" with "initial weak vote". He's made a conclusion from the way I supposedly felt about the two cases (that I supposedly felt the PZ case was stronger than the eKim case), when I've explicitly said the opposite (that I felt the eKim case was stronger than the PZ case).

(I hope I'm making sense with this.)

Then there's another thing - he later said that I waited with reacting to things which were in the thread for a long time, inferring that I must have waited to see how things turned. This is also incorrect, if you just check when the relevant posts were made.

[ODDin]

EBWOP: So, it's not only that he confused "RVS vote" with "initial weak vote".

[Scien]

Except everything you just said falls back onto him thinking you had a RVS vote instead of a real vote. Assume he is town for a sec. If he really thought that your initial vote was random, wouldn't he be concerned that you stuck with it when you also suspected him?

What, in your words, makes his play more likely to be scum manipulation rather than town mistake?

I'm not trying to defend him, I'm really just trying to look at you.

[ODDin]

Okay, suppose PZ is town. He makes a mistake and thinks my vote on eKim was RVS. He accuses me for it and votes me for it. Okay, mistakes happen. Then I point out that he was wrong. Why doesn't he back off? Why doesn't he admit it was a mistake? Why does he refuse to address it in any way and continue to vote?

I can agree that if you take the post where he votes me in isolation, it could've been a mistake made by a townie. But the fact that he didn't admit it was a mistake and continued to vote for me based on it doesn't sit right with me at all. He obviously read what I've said, he even replied to select parts of these posts. So what's the town motivation behind continuing to vote for something that you know is wrong?

Bottom line: I agree that the original post could've been an honest mistake. It doesn't make sense to me that him not admitting it even after it's been pointed out - several times - can be an honest townie mistake.

[charlatan]

In response to Scien's pointed questions, I feel that being "vaguely defensive" is a nulltell entirely, but at the same time basically believe that ODDin is making something out of, well, not nothing, but very little. There is one point he has raised that I find very telling, however: PZ started a bandwagon to gauge reactions (I am willing to give him this, because I like to do this too), then did not use those reactions towards any end.

The above isn't my only issue with PZ - and I've said this before as well. I think that he created generated confusion with his wagon on SC, which he could've avoided. This confusion has hurt the town.

Do you feel this makes him more likely to be scum, or is it more along the lines of bad play? I found SerialClergyman's interaction with him at the end of the play intriguing in that he seemed rather heated in his arguments against PZ, but ultimately it seemed more like criticizing playstyle because it annoyed him without committing to a solid position on PZ's alignment.

[ODDin]

There is one point he has raised that I find very telling, however: PZ started a bandwagon to gauge reactions (I am willing to give him this, because I like to do this too), then did not use those reactions towards any end.

Credit where credit is due: SC raised this point, not I.

Do you feel this makes him more likely to be scum, or is it more along the lines of bad play? I found SerialClergyman's interaction with him at the end of the play intriguing in that he seemed rather heated in his arguments against PZ, but ultimately it seemed more like criticizing playstyle because it annoyed him without committing to a solid position on PZ's alignment.

I think that depends on how good a player I think PZ is. I didn't acually read his meta, but I saw the hype of his nomination for best new player, so I kinda tend to believe that if he does something then it's intended. So I'm leaning towards "more likely to be scum". But maybe I'm expecting too much of people.


Also, I do actually think that my case is pretty strong. But maybe it's just me.

[BigBear]

Albert B. Rampage replaces Amished effective immediately due to Amished's vacation.

Prods will go out tomorrow morning, so if you think you haven't been posting much, then post.

[Ojanen]

I was supposed to reread tonight but ended up wasting it on trying to get a deadlined essay written and now it's 3AM.
Currently I'm annoyed that Amished was out before we could really interact. There are elements of non-carefulness and taking clear stances that felt originally townish in his play. But then there were later obscure things feeling contradictory (stance on meta, asking townreads as scumtell from Sando but not from ODDin and own unclear joke about it) or vaguely revisionist (whether he originally noticed ODDin's townread comment or not, early vote on SC). He seemed non-chalant but... inaccurate is the word I guess. The townish seeming signals were so, I think, because they would make it easier to spot contradictions, but after unclear thought processes are actually spotted, the townish seeming signals cease to be so and the contradictions stick as scummy over the careless feeling style.

ODDin, if I remember correctly, you didn't find Sando very scummy for basing his vote on Amished on inaccurate statements about the argument about LoSses. Why is drawing a parallel here to PZ wrong, why PZ basing his argument on your vote being random etc. more scummy?

More tomorrow morning.

[VP Baltar]

Had to catch up elsewhere that was more neglected, but that moved this game up to my number 1 catch up slot. Have to say I pretty strongly disagree with replacing Amished for being V/LA with another player who is V/LA for roughly the same time period....but I guess I'm not the mod.

[Papa Zito]

Also, I do actually think that my case is pretty strong. But maybe it's just me.

It is just you, and you need to stop tunneling so hard.

vote: Zorblag

[AGar]

oDDin, I don't like that vote.

Care to elaborate?[/quote]

OMGUS. Seemingly empty vote to start off a day. Skewed viewpoints. Just to name a few.

I really need to give this game a serious re-read, but you guys aren't like newbies and actually post mountains. Gonna need to do a re-read tomorrow. Serves me right for signing up for a non-newbie game. :p

[Zorblag]

Welcome to the game, Albert B. Rampage.

@Ojanen, distractions of the sort that Sando was making with his complaining about people asking for opinions are scummy because they take resources away from more productive lines of inquiry in a case where he could have simply given his opinions. That so much time was spent talking about something so essentially irrelevant almost certainly prevented the town from doing other useful scumhunting.

@Papa Zito, I'll be going back to our brief exchange shortly (I really hope tomorrow but I hoped that I'd be posting Saturday evening as well) and seeing if I can't clarify some things. You seem to be grumpy this game compared to how I've seen you play in the past and there are a couple ways I could take that. How much of a pain are you finding it to get on and play in this game right now?

@Raskol, I'll be very interested in your thoughts once you've done a reread. When Papa Zito asked me for a list of suspicions at the end of the day yesterday I decided to cap it at three and didn't explain them at all. I thought a bit about whether you should take the place of AGar or Amished as I don't think that I've got any idea of what your thoughts are on most of the player at this point.

@AGar, you did make my list as you've mostly kept under my radar. I'd like to see a top couple suspects from you when you've done your read as well.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[ODDin]

ODDin, if I remember correctly, you didn't find Sando very scummy for basing his vote on Amished on inaccurate statements about the argument about LoSses. Why is drawing a parallel here to PZ wrong, why PZ basing his argument on your vote being random etc. more scummy?

Several thigns.
1) What Sando said was a misinterpretation, but not as serious as what PZ did, IMHO.
2) Sando was willing to discuss the issue, and eventually admitted that he was wrong and backed off.

@PZ: By refusing to even discuss the issue you're actively sabotaging the game. If you are indeed town, you have to grant the possibility that I am town. You cannot expect me to back off without providing any defence whatsoever, now can you?

AGar: OMGUS is a matter of interpretation and whether you think I'm honest or lying, so I can't really answer to that. As for the empty vote - it's based on a case. It's the best case I've got at the moment. I've been with this case since D1 without much change (because PZ doesn't deign to answer it). Where were you then, I wonder?

Zorblag: You practically didn't provide any opinions with this post. How about

your

top suspects?

[ODDin]

ODDin, if I remember correctly, you didn't find Sando very scummy for basing his vote on Amished on inaccurate statements about the argument about LoSses. Why is drawing a parallel here to PZ wrong, why PZ basing his argument on your vote being random etc. more scummy?

Several thigns.
1) What Sando said was a misinterpretation, but not as serious as what PZ did, IMHO.
2) Sando was willing to discuss the issue, and eventually admitted that he was wrong and backed off.

@PZ: By refusing to even discuss the issue you're actively sabotaging the game. If you are indeed town, you have to grant the possibility that I am town. You cannot expect me to back off without providing any defence whatsoever, now can you?

AGar: OMGUS is a matter of interpretation and whether you think I'm honest or lying, so I can't really answer to that. As for the empty vote - it's based on a case. It's the best case I've got at the moment. I've been with this case since D1 without much change (because PZ doesn't deign to answer it). Where were you then, I wonder?

Zorblag: You practically didn't provide any opinions with this post. How about

your

top suspects?

[VP Baltar]

Papa Zito's 409 is just one big wtf.

No.

oDDin, I don't like that vote.

Vote: oDDin

What, why? I don't see any problem with his PZ vote.

Of course, as it turns out, those not on the bandwagon were correct. Would it be fair to say that your vote on Amished was almost entirely based on gut? And that your decision to stay off of the Sando wagon was based on gut?

The Amished vote was mostly based on gut and the fact that it was the only other real lynchable wagon. Someone has to go and I was having severe misgivings about Sando at the last minute. Those weren't based on gut, so much as his frustration seeming honest to me.

I'm going to have to do a re-reading of this game: I honestly have very little idea at this point. I hope to fix that and have something useful to say in the near future.

This statement plus being on the tail end of the Sando wagon = scum.

I think ODDin is tunneling too hard on PZ over something small. I don't mind people thinking PZ is scum necessarily, but I'd like to see a better case than that if you expect to persuade people that way.

@Zorblag-would you call yesterday's lynch a policy lynch?

---

I think there a lot of people playing this game tentatively and I don't like it very much. I know I was away for awhile, so I can't criticize too much, but the discussion here is greatly lacking. I have some ideas where we need to be looking, but need to check some things out first.

I'd really like more concrete opinions from Zorblag, Raskol, and Papa Zito very soon.

[Scien]

@VP
[WIFOM]
Both the PapaZ post and the Agar post I believe are pointing to the NK and saying "Hey, the scum NKed to push more suspicion at PapaZ". If they believe that way, ODDin coming in and immediately voting for PapaZ looks like scum continuing the plan.
[/WIFOM]

[WIFOY]
If the night kill truly was supposed to get rid of a competitor of PapaZ, I haven't found partnering yet.
[/WIFOY]

But nothing yet to back any of that up.

[VP Baltar]

That's a pretty ridiculous stance to take at this point Scien. I'd rather lynch on behavior than NK analysis this early in the game.

Who are your top suspects right now?

[Papa Zito]

@Papa Zito, I'll be going back to our brief exchange shortly (I really hope tomorrow but I hoped that I'd be posting Saturday evening as well) and seeing if I can't clarify some things. You seem to be grumpy this game compared to how I've seen you play in the past and there are a couple ways I could take that. How much of a pain are you finding it to get on and play in this game right now?

Work is busy. But.

I'm finding this game ... nebulous? I can't find the right word. Something's way off here and I can't get a handle on it.

And I'm always grumpy when it's like this. By now I should have a couple solid town reads

at least

so I have people to work with and I don't have that at the moment.

Nothing about this post makes me want to move my vote, btw.

If you are indeed town, you have to grant the possibility that I am town. You cannot expect me to back off without providing any defence whatsoever, now can you?

Am I voting you? Also I have no expectations for your play. FREEDOM!!!1!

@VP
[WIFOM]
Both the PapaZ post and the Agar post I believe are pointing to the NK and saying "Hey, the scum NKed to push more suspicion at PapaZ". If they believe that way, ODDin coming in and immediately voting for PapaZ looks like scum continuing the plan.
[/WIFOM]

This is exactly where I'm coming from. It seems fairly obvious that they looked at us sniping back and forth at the end of Day 1 and decided to see if they could push for a mislynch today. I'm both honored and amused given my horrendous play thus far.

Though I'm less sure of the ODDin bit. It seems a little too blatant.

[Scien]

That's a pretty ridiculous stance to take at this point Scien. I'd rather lynch on behavior than NK analysis this early in the game.

Who are your top suspects right now?

That would be why I haven't building cases with it. Doesn't mean I am going to ignore my gut here. I think I can use the NK to know who to look at for behavior. Who said anything about me lynching based purely on the NK?

Top suspects?
ODDin, and you at the moment. But its weak.

I started talking to ODDin to get a better feel for him, but that's still on going. I think I need to give you another read before I question you.

I guess I should ask you right off the bat, are you suggesting the NK tells us absolutely nothing? Did you not think that people responding to the NK and actions afterward might have been referring to the NK? What makes you think that PapaZ's 'WTF' post didn't refer to the NK?

You seem confused about something that it seems multiple people took as a granted assumption.

[ODDin]

I think ODDin is tunneling too hard on PZ over something small. I don't mind people thinking PZ is scum necessarily, but I'd like to see a better case than that if you expect to persuade people that way.

See, my aim in this game is to catch scum, not to lynch PZ. I haven't got more reasons up my sleeve - I've said what I think. If people don't think that the case is strong - okay, maybe I'm wrong with this and am indeed blowing things out of proportion.
What I'm trying to say is, I can't "persuade" you anymore than I already have. If you don't think my case is worthy of a vote at the moment, it's your right. I'm not going to fabricate new arguments just to get a lynch, since that's not what I'm trying to achieve.

Scien: your reasoning is pure WIFOM. You really should know better.
PZ using it also disturbs me.

PZ, you're not voting me today, but you did vote for me yesterday. I think my arguments against you are pretty clear, even if perhaps not very strong. Why you don't make any attempts to answer them is a mystery to me.

[VP Baltar]

ODDin, and you at the moment. But its weak.

Maybe my V/LA damaged my memory, but I don't remember you being suspicious of me. What is the case exactly?

I guess I should ask you right off the bat, are you suggesting the NK tells us absolutely nothing?

On day 2, no they don't say much of anything and aren't really worth wasting your time on unless something glaringly obvious is there...which it isn't here. I would much rather single out the scum on the Sando wagon than waste my time trying to divine NK motives.

Did you not think that people responding to the NK and actions afterward might have been referring to the NK? What makes you think that PapaZ's 'WTF' post didn't refer to the NK?

My point was that his post had no point to it...as have most of his posts this game. Why post with a stupid ass joke on Day 2 when you haven't contributed squat all game? You see where I'm coming from.

[BigBear]

I have prodded Raskol.

Vote Count

Papa Zito - (1) - ODDin
ODDin - (1) - AGar
Zorblog - (1) - Papa Zito

Not Voting

charlatan, Ojanen, Raskol, Scien, VP Baltar, Albert B. Rampage, Zorblog

[Raskol]

Sorry about inactivity---I've had another game that's been taking up all my brain-thoughts and such (mini 872)---we were in mylo and a lot of very interesting things were happening; this game just hasn't caught my attention much in comparison recently.

I have done a re-read as promised, though. A few questions and comments for now:

-AGar---would you say it's usual for you to park your vote all Day? Were you that sure that ekiM was scum?

-I think ODDin's case on PZ is genuine (town read on ODDin). I don't think it's very convincing, but it feels genuine.

-Ojanen started an alternate wagon to the Sando wagon. +10 townie points for her. Not for the others, unless Amished flips scum at some point (nulltell for them, I think).

-I wish I'd done a few things differently yesterday, but one of the things I don't apologize for is my Sando vote. He was as good a lynch as anyone would have been, both in 'policy' terms and likelihood of being scum (as far as could be known then).

For now,

vote: AGar

[Papa Zito]

Oh I forgot all about Raskol. <3 Raskol.

-I think ODDin's case on PZ is genuine (town read on ODDin). I don't think it's very convincing, but it feels genuine.

I agree.

I need to reread this mess and try to jumpstart something in my puny little brain. In the meantime ya'll's homework is to reread Zorblag in iso.