Open 177 (Monks and Masons) - Game Over.

[Benmage]

The Haylen needs a break Vote count

Hewitt - ElectricBadger
Scien - Farside22
Farside22 - Scien
ElectricBadger - Benmage

Not Voting: Nikanor, Hewitt, Maemuki, ODDin, XofElf

Lots of love
Haylxxx

Nice job scien. A little ironic you left out my lingering question on Oddin in both of our summaries, but i did ask for them to be brief.

As far as my interactions with Mae...there hasnt been any, i just joined the game and she is V/LA...from her play my only read is that shes bad, and could warrant a policy lynch if others are for this so am i. Her badness makes her impossible to read, thus quite the liability.

The YJ/Mae/Wulfy exchange..i'd have to go back and read, as well as Nik's statement.

Based on this set up and the possible scenario's I'm going with the assumption that there is 2 wovles and 2 mafia. If this a fact we mislynch with 9 players and then it's just a battle between 2 scum factions for who wins.
In a nutshell I'm against policy lynches based on this possible scenario.

Right right right...today would be a bad position with 0 mafia dead to call for one...She still shouldnt be overlooked..that said. Vote EB !??!

[Scien]

Based on this set up and the possible scenario's I'm going with the assumption that there is 2 wovles and 2 mafia. If this a fact we mislynch with 9 players and then it's just a battle between 2 scum factions for who wins.

I am almost positive this is the case. I said similar when we were having the setup questions in day one. I think the 1-2 wolf/scum was really saying vanilla wolf/scum. If there was only 1 vanilla wolf/scum, that means the other was a non-vanila m/m as well.

But, we can try and clear this up as well:

Hey Ms. Mod, is it possible for a wolf/scum team to have less than 2 members counting both the vanillas and possible M/M anti-town roles? For instance could we have started the game with only one member on the mafia team or was there always going to be two no matter the way setup landed? If you can't answer that, could you say that you can't answer that just so I know?

---

As for your lingering question to ODDin, I didn't see it explicitly. I assume you are talking about the suggestion that he is ignoring aspects of my play that he should question? I can't see the motive for that, although I know what you are getting at. I think you need to ask him, because him ignoring me truly doesn't make sense to me.

I guess in abstract though either:
A) Both of us are on the same anti-town team, and therefore are ignoring each other. This is not the case, but is what you suspect at the moment it seems.
B) He is town, and for some reason is confident I am town. This shouldn't be the case because repetitively in this game he said that he was unsure of my alignment.
C) He is scum and thinks that eventually I will get nailed by town, or is afraid to push my way thinking I might flip town (he wouldn't know if I was the other anti-town team or not). This could be the case. Although I think if I was in those scum shoes I would have pushed harder on me throughout the game, since I seemed to be the easier target between Farside and me.
D) He is scum and is confident that I am town. It would probably benefit him at this stage to start trying to hit the other anti-town team, in order to promote his team's win. As you guys said, at this point unless the town starts getting really lucky, we might get overwhelmed soon if the next round of lynch/NKs all land on pro-town roles.

But that's all speculation. I think I would lean with D, but you guys are thinking A. Well. Sure think what you want. But make sure you realize that in this game type the anti-town roles aren't out against just the town.

[Haylen]

Hey Ms. Mod, is it possible for a wolf/scum team to have less than 2 members counting both the vanillas and possible M/M anti-town roles? For instance could we have started the game with only one member on the mafia team or was there always going to be two no matter the way setup landed? If you can't answer that, could you say that you can't answer that just so I know?

Sorry, can you rephrase, im not sure i understand the question.

[Scien]

In the setup you say that there could be 1-2 scum.

Does that mean that in day 1, it is possible to have a single person scum team? In other words, a mafia member by himself?

[Benmage]

---

As for your lingering question to ODDin, I didn't see it explicitly. I assume you are talking about the suggestion that he is ignoring aspects of my play that he should question? I can't see the motive for that, although I know what you are getting at. I think you need to ask him, because him ignoring me truly doesn't make sense to me.

I have asked him...and suddenly he goes inactive. He also is guilty of the exact same thing he was accusing farside...giving a definition of town, that could be referenced to his own play.

I guess in abstract though either:
A) Both of us are on the same anti-town team, and therefore are ignoring each other. This is not the case, but is what you suspect at the moment it seems.
But that's all speculation. I think I would lean with D, but you guys are thinking A. Well. Sure think what you want. But make sure you realize that in this game type the anti-town roles aren't out against just the town.

Yes A to a degree is what i believe.

[Scien]

Heh, I'm a bit insulted that you think that I am a bad enough player to completely ignore a teammate. But carry on.

The only thing that makes sense to me is D, which I know looks like a stretch to you guys. But its the only thing that makes any degree of sense to me at the moment. With my additional info of my role added to the actions of ODDin.

Just for the record, could you dump out the plays of mine that he has ignored?

[Benmage]

i'm not saying you aren't reading his posts....in fact i hint as possible coaching from you towards him.. I'm saying maybe hes skimmed your posts.

Post 557 clearly illustrates the ones hes ignored....You didnt read it?

[Scien]

I'm not saying anything about reading, I was talking about if your claim is we have been ignoring each other, it susks to think you think I suck that much. When I am scum I don't ignore my partner. Joke post anyway.

As for the 'didn't you read it' plug, I'm doing a bunch of catch up in my games. And a bunch of ISO skims. I read it, but its lost in my memory now due to the amount of information I am going through. And at the time that you posted that I was in tunnel defense against a tunnel anyway.

I caught you when you mentioned one instance you thought I was coaching when you were catching up. I really don't have a defense for that. But I legitimately wondered why he was purely interested in my response. Meh.

557:
I have commented on the whole Farside 'vague townie suggestion' claim verses me explicitly saying that I was townie thing you mentioned first. It does seem a contradiction I agree. You keep using the phrase 'double standard' but that doesn't fit. He has no reason to hold me to another standard over any other people than his scum team.

"Doesn’t it seem like Oddin wants people to read this and see ‘oh hey, that’s how Oddin is acting’ Ergo: Oddin isn’t scum/is town" -- IMO seems like as much of a stretch as when ODDin tried to pull that claim off.

But he truly didn't mention my townie claims at all. Not a peep. You are correct there. You are just wrong about the motives for that ignore.

---

So. You currently suspect EB more that ODDin or me? It seems that with the inconsistencies of ODDin, and your 'hypocrisy=scum tell' stance, that that should be pretty damning, but you are pushing EB. Why is this?

I also would still like to have an answer for what you said I was dodging in your post 570. In my opinion I was trying to answer the concerns as best I could. What exactly was I dodging in YOUR opinion?

[Scien]

Let's try that again, even though you guys are going to spin it:
You keep using the phrase 'double standard' but that doesn't fit. He has no reason to hold me to another standard over any other people than his scum team.

Assuming he is scum.

[Benmage]

557:
I have commented on the whole Farside 'vague townie suggestion' claim verses me explicitly saying that I was townie thing you mentioned first. It does seem a contradiction I agree. You keep using the phrase 'double standard' but that doesn't fit. He has no reason to hold me to another standard over any other people than his scum team.

He isnt holding you to a double standard? lol?? how would that make any sense...he made a case on farside and committed the same fault himself, thats the double standard.

"Doesn’t it seem like Oddin wants people to read this and see ‘oh hey, that’s how Oddin is acting’ Ergo: Oddin isn’t scum/is town" -- IMO seems like as much of a stretch as when ODDin tried to pull that claim off.

Thats the point, oddin is a hypocrit

But he truly didn't mention my townie claims at all. Not a peep. You are correct there. You are just wrong about the motives for that ignore.

we will see...i see no logical reason for him to complain to one player, make a bold statement about himself, and fail to comment on you.

So. You currently suspect EB more that ODDin or me? It seems that with the inconsistencies of ODDin, and your 'hypocrisy=scum tell' stance, that that should be pretty damning, but you are pushing EB. Why is this?

I'm for eithers lynch, and to be honest would vote you if there was enough backing...that said i dont think there is, i think you the least scummy of the 3, and dont see you as a viable lynch for today. I think there is ample evidence to get either EB or Oddin lynched today. I initially wanted Oddin, but after Eb folded up his hands...well he surpassed Oddin. Regardless i'm for either to see hung, will campaign against both, and am willing to see either lynched. I dont want this day to goto deadline and have another horrible speed lynch. That was completely anti-town by all players of this game, and just horrible to witness.

I also would still like to have an answer for what you said I was dodging in your post 570. In my opinion I was trying to answer the concerns as best I could. What exactly was I dodging in YOUR opinion?

Let me look this up, fairly certain i never said you dodged anything.

[Benmage]

Let's try that again, even though you guys are going to spin it:
You keep using the phrase 'double standard' but that doesn't fit. He has no reason to hold me to another standard over any other people than his scum team.

Assuming he is scum.

It isnt u! He called Farside bad for one thing, and did the same fault...thats a double standard no?....you arent involved in the double standard thing!!

[farside22]

Heh, I'm a bit insulted that you think that I am a bad enough player to completely ignore a teammate. But carry on.

The only thing that makes sense to me is D, which I know looks like a stretch to you guys. But its the only thing that makes any degree of sense to me at the moment. With my additional info of my role added to the actions of ODDin.

Just for the record, could you dump out the plays of mine that he has ignored?

Calling one player out on a behavoir and not calling out another player doing the same thing looks scummy. It looks bad and yes it looks like a scum pair. Especially the way you both blantantly ignore each other unless directly asked.

[Benmage]

As for post 570:

I actually answer my own statement in the bottom of post 569.

You re-ask the question in 578,

and I reanswer it in 581.

Any more questions on the issue, after you read these(again?) feel free to let me know.

[Scien]

Double standard to me implies that he has a seporate standard for Farside and me. There is no reason for this unless Farside and him are a scum team and I don't think that is the case.

Maybe, but doubtful.

That's why I am saying inconsistent instead of double-standard.

[Benmage]

!??!? What feelings do you think i'm suggesting about him vs you??

Let me say this slowly again....yoooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuu arentttttttttt innnnnnnnnvvvvvooooooooooollllllvvveeeeedd in the dbl standard.

The double standard is between farside and himself.

He holds farside guilty for one action, that he himself commits..

geeeeeze.

[Scien]

Thats the point, oddin is a hypocrit

You missed the point. I think you saying "Doesn’t it seem like Oddin wants people to read this and see ‘oh hey, that’s how Oddin is acting’ Ergo: Oddin isn’t scum/is town" is as much of a stretch as when ODDin tried pulling that off on Farside. I think you are guilty of the same stretch that ODDin was. I didn't see the motive ODDin was claiming Farside had. I don't see the motive you claim ODDin had there.

i see no logical reason for him to complain to one player, make a bold statement about himself, and fail to comment on you.

I gave you D. You believe A. Both are logical. Actually so are B and C, I just don't personally believe them. But I get what you are saying. You think that D is not logical? Please tell me why.

I'm for eithers lynch, and to be honest would vote you if there was enough backing...that said i dont think there is, i think you the least scummy of the 3, and dont see you as a viable lynch for today. I think there is ample evidence to get either EB or Oddin lynched today. I initially wanted Oddin, but after Eb folded up his hands...well he surpassed Oddin. Regardless i'm for either to see hung, will campaign against both, and am willing to see either lynched. I dont want this day to goto deadline and have another horrible speed lynch. That was completely anti-town by all players of this game, and just horrible to witness.

Fair. And nice answer by the way.

It isnt u! He called Farside bad for one thing, and did the same fault...thats a double standard no?....you arent involved in the double standard thing!!

OOOOH. I completely read you wrong. I thought you were saying he was holding me and Farside to a different standard. You are just making the hypocrite claim again. Nevermind... ignore me >.<

Calling one player out on a behavoir and not calling out another player doing the same thing looks scummy. It looks bad and yes it looks like a scum pair. Especially the way you both blantantly ignore each other unless directly asked.

Ya caught that the first 100 times you said that. And I understood it. Thanks for the reminder though.

[Scien]

"He holds farside guilty for one action, that he himself commits.. "

ya ya ya... I get it now...

[farside22]

"He holds farside guilty for one action, that he himself commits.. "

ya ya ya... I get it now...

I believe that you calling my comments towards you WIFOM but never bring up Oddin's case on me day 1 which is pure WIFOM and never saying anything about it is a double standard.

[Benmage]

Thats the point, oddin is a hypocrit

You missed the point. I think you saying "Doesn’t it seem like Oddin wants people to read this and see ‘oh hey, that’s how Oddin is acting’ Ergo: Oddin isn’t scum/is town" is as much of a stretch as when ODDin tried pulling that off on Farside. I think you are guilty of the same stretch that ODDin was. I didn't see the motive ODDin was claiming Farside had. I don't see the motive you claim ODDin had there.

My motive isnt to call him scum for this if thats what you are suggesting. My motive is to call him a hypocrite...now if hypocrites are scum, as yet to be talked about.

i see no logical reason for him to complain to one player, make a bold statement about himself, and fail to comment on you.

I gave you D. You believe A. Both are logical. Actually so are B and C, I just don't personally believe them. But I get what you are saying. You think that D is not logical? Please tell me why.

B/C are a joke. D is logical in that it is sound, but so is A. Compound A with other things, and I believe it more. Regardless the outcome of both A n D is Oddin is scum, and hes on the lynch before you....sooo, the whole point is relatively null, Oddin needs to die.

It isnt u! He called Farside bad for one thing, and did the same fault...thats a double standard no?....you arent involved in the double standard thing!!

OOOOH. I completely read you wrong. I thought you were saying he was holding me and Farside to a different standard. You are just making the hypocrite claim again. Nevermind... ignore me >.<

, i almost thought i was going mad

[Scien]

Eh... here's a quote from day 1 for you... nice lying again.

1) She accuses you of twisting her comments with your "look how extremely and terribly aggressive I'm being right now. Ergo: I'm not scum."

My opinion? She has a point. She was making a point that in her opinion scum are rarely aggressive. She was not trying to push a point that she her being aggressive made her not scum. On the contrary, I believe she has said before that she plays aggressive as scum (somewhere in some meta discussion. I can find it if you wish).

You kind of have a point on your side, and we shouldn't discount her being aggressive scum. But trying to act like she was suggesting herself as pro town for being aggressive seems a stretch to me.

2) She goes on about the twisting. Pretty much my same comments above. Yes, what you are saying is a concern. But I don't see where she was pushing that her aggression made her pro-town. I think that's a derived thought coming from you.

3) She quotes your reasoning for your vote on her. I'm not seeing what she is getting at. It looks like you are saying that all cases are weak, and you don't want to lynch anyone yet in your quote, and that you just pressure voted. In general I would say meh to everything in that quote. But I wouldn't necessarily call it scummy. Indecisive would be a better word. (Of course to her, that is scummy). Also, saying your vote is for pressure removes pressure.

4) She suggests a pairing between me and you. The only thing I can comment on here is that as a townie, I can only assert that for my side of this 'pairing', its a mistaken view. However you could be scum and buddying to me for some reason. My opinion was that you were kind of objective, so I don't really see the buddying claim.

5) She comments on your pressure vote, and not wanting to talk about others at this time. I say my comments ditto 3 above. I can see her complaint, and she has already let the town know she is a stickler about this, but IMO what your quote was indecisive not necessarilly scummy in its own right.

6) More of her accusing you of twisting words. Meh, partially true. I think you are making assumptions that might be protown, but to get to those conclusions takes an assumption. Pressing that as a case is going to look wrong, and that's kind of what you are doing.

7) She complains about you calling her vote OMGUS. I disagree with it being that. She definitely has claimed issues about your case in thread.

Conclusion? I can see where you are coming from. I'm not going to lie and say I don't (even now) suspect Farside, but much of your case does seem fairly weak, and stretched.

I think you have valid concerns.

But many of them make assumptions that we can't prove. Trying to push a case at this time isn't going to work. I think you have been fairly vocal about your case, and you didn't take the easy route and back off. But the case itself has issues, and she is right to question you about it.

Assumptions about motives that you can't prove? Does that sound like WIFOM? Oh snap!

[Scien]

That was to Farside saying I never called his case bad due to WIFOM. Sorry.

[farside22]

1) That post was way after the fact
2) it's all so nice and warm and fuzzy instead of what I've been getting from you about it. Also it looks like coaching but that's WIFOM I'm sure.
3) again mine comments were backed up in facts showing your two quotes and the flip flop. What is in the mind of a person doesn't make it not backtracking. He didn't back anything up and you let it side till someone ask you.
4) Oh yes did I meantion how much you cast your nose down on Oddin's WIFOM as nothing more then meh. If your calling it WIFOM with no case you should have said so earlier without provication.

Again have you actually done scum hunting in this game or looked at people till asked? When exactly was this?

[Scien]

1) Er... and this is not never how? You claimed I never said peep about his weak case. You are INCORRECT.
2) Could that be because you were grilling the hell out of me at the time, and they were one of the only people claiming to see the other side?
3) Yes, you've proved that I switched my vote. Very good. But you can't prove what made me switch my vote... you have my word and your suspicions. You need to back up your suspicions.
4) Again, I was in tunnel defense of your tunneling in day 1. Besides others called him out on it. You wanted me to what... ditto them? I think they had it covered. Besides when he asked me directly and I told him it was weak, that is not exactly 'meh'. Especially since he pushed it for so long.

How have I scum hunted? I've asked my questions between your harassment. And besides in my discussions with you, you have slipped a few inconsistencies and tendencies to ignore certain possibilities, not to mention a tendency to tunnel using fairly meh cases, and then refusing to back them up when asked about it. I think I am doing just fine.

OMGUS when I do it, not when you do it, even though you claim that if you have reasons it's not OMGUS. Calling me out for not following a weak case in begin day, calling others out for spouting weak cases in later day. Calling me out for placeing a RV instead of following a weak case, calling others out for removing their votes too fast. Very nice.

---

I take it you are not going to let us stop fighting huh. Just can't stop.

[farside22]

So basically I get to count on you only making cases on people when asked directly about a person? Or you can't handle pressure and therefore ignore everyone the whole time till your asked?

[Scien]

Sure we'll go with that.