Mini 891 - British Comedy Mafia (Game Over)

[Chinaman]

Aren't we all a little crazy JL?

Knock Knock.

Who's there?

Vote: Fuzzy

...

Vote Fuzzy..wha??...why?

Cuz Snowbunny asked me to and she has a virgina.

[Chinaman]

Looking back through, I can only do one thing.

Vote: Josh Lyman

Reasoning (in ISO format):
p10: huh? what? first point you make is a disagreement with Budja's opinion of RVS. Next is what looks like an attempt at buddying with Snow. Then you disagree with Budja's feel from Fuzzy's posts. Then you vote based on that? Color me confused. I can only see it as trying to move the spotlight from yourself in any way you can.

p11: mass prod. I tend to agree that some have yet to post, but the timeframe in which the game started says "give them time". It looks like an early attempt to look town by wanting lurkers prodded.

p12: Soft claim town....null tell I guess.

p13: I have no way to read this other than AtE. I have been lynched unjustly as town D1 for crap arguments by others many times, and never have I thought that a post like this would be a good idea. I have however seen scum use it. TBH though, I have seen one other townie use it as well. That townie was in a though spot at the time (he replaced into a 83 page game where his predecessor was under heavy suspicion)

Those things and not having anyone else on the scumdar at this time force me to vote you JL. If you have given up on this game at only what is now L-2, then you're of no use to us no matter your alignment.

[Chinaman]

Welcome Blood. When you get caught up, I'd like to here your thoughts on Josh Lyman issue and SB's thoughts on Budja and Fuzzy.

[Chinaman]

p15 was indeed random and meant to be funny due to this game. L-3 means the same to me as L-6 so I didn't think much of SB getting onto Budja for his. Now that you point it out though Mac, your point makes sense.

on the other hand...

Budja's p83 has a slight feel for buddying up to Mac.

My vote on JL will remain till he shows back up and has caught up. I am not willing to remove it just because he's at L-1. Would give the idea that someone could just stop posting to get out from under the spotlight. I will however ask that nobody hammer him till he's had a chance to do what he said he will do.

[Chinaman]

SB: I think your missing one important thing here. You DID ask us for more votes on Fuzzy. Did you expect that not to happen? I mean, you're a girl and I'm a nerd (a married one luckily, but still). I do what girls tell me to do and it's possible others do too?

*Girls dig that right?*

All kidding aside, part of your prosecution of Budja is for doing as you told him. You do have other points on him though, so I'm not going to say your being hypocritical at this point, but I think what we need to do at this point is A: wait for JL to respond to his wagon and B: really weigh who is the scummier. I personally am not getting a huge scum reading on Budja, but I've been known to be wrong before.

[Chinaman]

Well, I say we lynch JL. I bet THAT would get this game going. I would also bet that he would flip scum. I really don't like that after the AtE (which btw is on mafiawiki and easily accessible to find on your own), he promises he hasn't given up and will read through and post comments (said in his post on the 8th of Dec)....well, he hasn't. I personally think he's trying to ride out this wagon by letting us rip each other apart and cause our own mislynch. I don't like it. I have a wife and 2 kids and yet I find time to keep up with games. I will also say he has posted today (December 10) in another game I am in with him yet hasn't read up on the wopping 4 pages of this game enough to comment?

More votes on JL plz. Also, more posts from those who haven't posted recently...you know who you are.

For those who haven't posted as of late, and want to come in with "I'm following along, just have nothing to say" crap...don't. Instead, answer this. If you aren't voting JL, why not? If you are voting JL, what's your own personal reason for doing so?

There, you all have something to answer that might be worth something.

[Chinaman]

Uhg. I'll apologize now for saying he hadn't posted in here today (the 10th). He in fact has....it just worth anything to me and was forgotten instantly.

JL: Did you re-read through this game? If so, was that little bit toward LL all you had to go on for hunting for scum out of all 4 pages?

[Chinaman]

More strawmanning from the JL. Lynch now pls.

[Chinaman]

Also, I'd like to point out real quick you totally ignored my p101 where I apologized for saying you hadn't posted recently and asked you a few questions. I'll add another for you to answer: Any reason you feel you don't need to answer my questions?

[Chinaman]

Lol, no I didn't. I was trying to be cute like SnowBunny, tbh. On the otherhand, don't let that mislead you....I do want JL swinging by days end.

[Chinaman]

Also, you irritate me. See above answer.

Why do I irritate you? Because I think you're scum? You know that finding scum and voting for them is the point of this game right?

As for your claim JL, I'm not sure I buy it to be honest and you need to explain it MUCH better. The way to do this is to write up what you want to post in here, run it by the Mod first for his OK, then post it. I say I'm not buying it mainly because of

...where I can almost kill someone

Unless you 100% can or 100% can't, it's not going to be something you can prove. I'm not sure it's provable anyway to be completely honest. Let's say scum have only a night kill and no power roles. You say you will kill X to prove you aren't scum. What would stop scum from just not killing N1 and setting you up? Only one kill at night would be assumed as a scum kill (that's how I'd look at it at least). If only your person X died, what would stop us from thinking you are scum? At the very least, it doesn't prove your innocence. That's not even taking into account scum power roles.

On the flip side, if you are a one shot vig type of role, we basically have the potential to have 2 lynches on D1/N1 to one scum kill. This is pretty good imo. But again, if scum have a roleblocker it's pretty much your death D2. So yeah, all in all, I don't know. Need more info. Also need to hear what others think about it. For now...

vote remains. You're at L-2 and lived long enough at L-1 to not be in any real danger. You're going to have to explain this power you have and even then, I don't know if it's even provable.

SB:

Right. Weak excuse for an attempt of a quick hammer. And, tbh, you just can't be cute like me. Razz

Well, the first part is wrong, but you're prolly right about the second. How do you feel about those trying to link your alignment to JL's? Namely Imag and then Budja.

Budja: Could you please explain to me how if JL is town, that makes Snow likely town? Town are in the dark, so if she was town and thought JL was town so far this game, that doesn't make her right or wrong in any way shape or form. I can't wrap my mind around what your possible reasoning is for this. Please explain.

I didn't jump on Imag's link between JL and SB because the logic presumably behind that comment would be scum trying to keep their scumbuddy from getting lynched, so it made sense to me (the concept anyway). But saying if person A is town, person B is prolly town....anyway, enough of that. I'll wait for you to explain.

[Chinaman]

OK, first let me

confirm

vote: JL

secondly let me say I can not believe I am the ONLY person voting him with this 4 page claim he's got going on. A claim, I might add, that is a pretty stupid ability. IF everything he has spewed out about his ability is true, I think the MOD was smoking crack when he thought it up. (no offense MOD if he indeed is not a lying scum)

I say this because there has been something grossly overlooked IMO. Anything is possible, but this ability has a major flaw. Here's what doesn't make sense to me: If he hits scum with it, what's the point when there is a flip? Why would the scum get to continue to talk? Everyone would ignore him anyway! So it's a pro-town ability in the fact it makes a townie unable to die (well, not anymore..?) but unable to vote at the same time? That's not a very good pro-town ability imo.

And here's what sealed the deal for me JL.

Apparently, once a player has been stumped, they can still be killed and thus have to stop talking. This is what I was told; it seems contradictory to me, but I will have to go back this evening and re-read some thread and some PMs.

YES! it DOES seem very contradictory! That's why you should die! You are either lying scum and your claim got the better of you, or you are completely worthless town. Lets go through your "powers" thus far.

-You can target someone at night
-Once
-If it's a scum player, they get to continue to talk but we have a flip so it's like killing them, but not.....
-If you target a town, you take away their vote, but the are confirmed and can continue to talk.
-If you target a town with a PR, you fuck them in the ass by taking away THEIR PR with yours, but hey, they can still talk and are no better than a confirmed townie.
-If you do target town, scum can kill them anyway N2.
-If you target the same town scum do, that townie dies and you lose your power anyway (due to using it)
-You are about as confirmable as me trying to prove aliens don't exist.

I think that's the skinny on your claimed ability.

More votes JL pls.


I think that's pretty much the just of it. Die now scum.

[Chinaman]

I don't see why people are attacking Josh when he has an easily confirmed claim. And, after all, Budja is the right lynch for today.

Snowbunny...his claim is NOT easily provable, and even if it was, I don't know if I would want him to. Read my previous post and tell me a 100% way to prove it and even if we could prove it, how it would be helpful to town in any way...

I would FOS you for this post, but I'm assuming it's because you are still catching up. If you are done catching up, let me know.

[Chinaman]

Net: please tell me how exactly JL's claim is provable in any way. I went through his claim and posted for you every flaw I saw, and I'm sure there's more that I didn't see. Please tell me why you chose to totally ignore all those points and say "He's a claimed power role, and a rather confirmable one at that". Also, please tell me how his "power" is useful in any way when scum can kill the stump at night anyway.

As a side note: BC's avatar is awesome and I love Chuck!

DS: You pointed out that JL has had 2 wagons on him so far in D1. Ever occur to you (and others) that maybe, just maybe, JL has had 2 wagons on him because he is doing scummy things?! Come on people, logic it out. It's not hard.

Right now, either Net or BC have my eye for JL's scumbuddy for their blatant disregard for the holes in JL's claim.

[Chinaman]

For those saying this role wouldn't help scum.....

How is making a known town (scum know this) into a voteless stump and killing him off later (say, oh i dont know, end game) not good for scum? Seriously folks, think before you post. I'm not saying it's a scum PR, let me be clear that I don't think it's a role at all, but that being said, I don't see how this power helps town in any way shape or form. THE STUMP IS KILLABLE BY SCUM!!! (Big Note here: this rule alone makes me think if it is a role, it's a scum PR that scum-JL is trying to pass off as a town PR. Think about how set he would be if he stumped someone N1 and he was scum with this PR but passed it off as a town PR) Come on! All his role would do if targeted on a townie by accident or on purpose is cause that townie to lose any PR he/she has, make that townie not able to vote, AND to top it off, that stump is killable! Let's add in the fact that even if scum let the stump live for awhile and that stump was a townie and that stump can still talk HE/SHE IS AS BLIND AS THE REST OF US!! With that in mind, all those saying JL should prove it, or should be given a pass, or anything other than lynching the lying scum right now, PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW HIS ROLE, IF IT IS SOMEHOW TRUE, HELPS TOWN AT ALL!

If JL were somehow telling the truth, scum know this and there are a multitude of things that could happen N1 to make it so there is no stump D2. I won't go into them as there could be a million different PR's out there for both scum and town, but needless to say, his claim is far from provable and if scum stopped him from stumping N1, he's dead D2 and they have effectively killed a possible 4 town before we get past this. I still don't believe any of this will happen since I think JL is scum, but I just wanted to put out there that I have at least thought about the other possibility.

Sorry for the caps, but it's the next best thing to yelling I have. It's blowing my mind this is even still under discussion. Once you read through the logic of my post, vote JL and let's get this done with. The only good thing to come out of this ongoing discussion is I have some very solid town reads as I don't think scum would bus JL yet since half the town seems to where helmets IRL. That is of course if I'm right and JL is scum. I have very little doubt I'm wrong here and if I am, it will be due to JL being a horrible town player in this game or the MOD smoking crack when he gave out this role. (again, no offense MOD)

[Chinaman]

Ok.....
First of all, there is no point in scum killing a stump unless the stump is a particularly good player, since killing somebody else puts them one round closer to LYLO. Second, this IS a town role because it is effectively a vig if it hits scum. We then become one vote further away from LYLO.

Second, the resultant role is a role that has been used before. See the wiki article:
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... Tree_Stump

Now, of course, this is a night action that creates a tree stump. That's fine. In fact, it's rather what we expect in theme games, as they're often plays on obscure roles used elsewhere.

Third, you've not explained why you feel that the claim is a lie, other than that you don't seem to understand what the role does. Please explain the following:

A) Why do you think that we need to lynch Lyman despite the potential for confirming him?

B) Why do you feel that his claim is fraudulent?

C) What made you suspicious of Lyman to begin with? What acts of his do you find scummy?

A) Because this potential for confirming him is far less likely to happen then the potential for a number of other things to happen. At this point, now that he has claimed this role and if it were true, scum could possibly have a multitude of options to make sure he looks like a liar tomorrow and is lynched anyway. Thought I explained this well enough already.

B) I feel it's a fraudulent claim due to the fact that it's very far from a pro-town PR. Besides the fact that the stump is killable anyway, so confirming a town with it get's us no closer to lynching scum as that townie is as lost as the rest of us, the townie chosen could possibly be a cop or doc or a number of other real pro-town roles. If we discussed who he should target before N1, A: this gives scum even more info to make it so no stump happens (a kill trumps a stumping) and B: if the target we chose was a PR, he/she would then have to claim in order to not lose that PR thus giving scum a better target! There is no way I see this working out well for us thus I don't think it's a pro-town PR even if he's town and actually has this PR thus I think it's a lie because it's a non-pro-town PR claim that isn't pro-town at all.

C) At this point I'm not going back through posts I have already written to explain certain things that have made me suspicious of JL. I usually have a habit of explaining them in my posts so do an ISO of me and find them yourself. I'm not going to do the work for you. If you have any questions about specific things I wrote while going through, I'll be happy to address those.

Look, as I've said before, I think the claim is an outright lie or possibly a scum PR trying to be spun as a town PR. Either way, I don't want him using it as I don't see this working out well for town in any way. Even if we told him to use his own discretion, he could easily target a more useful town PR and screw us.

Now, I want you to answer me my original question to everyone, which includes you, and tell me how him using his power (if it isn't a lie) would benefit the town more than hurt it.

[Chinaman]

Net: There are multiple things I don't like about your post, but I'll lump them into 2 general themes.

1. You really want JL to use his power (if he has it). Here's the problem with it being pro-town if used against scum...WE DONT KNOW WHO THE SCUM ARE! Do you? You are totally ignoring that fact and that if JL doesn't get lucky, he has a much better chance at hitting a town and a town with an actually useful PR not to mention the fact that if we have to tell him who to use it on, that person would have to claim. Why are you ignoring this completely? Yeah, if it hit a scum, that would be great, but the chances are NOT in our favor.

2. Holy defense of someone else. Do you think that's a scumtell? I sure as hell do. Your whole post reads either scumbuddy or scum trying to buddy. Add in point number 1 about him using it would be bad for town whether it confirms him or not and I have to give you a

Major FoS: Net

. If JL does flip town, you defending him and wanting him to use this power makes you my number one vote tomorrow. Actually, if the majority wants to lynch you today instead, I will be more than happy to join that wagon....as long as JL swears not to try and tree anyone N1.

[Chinaman]

See, you must be totally ignoring everything I'm saying. The following is under the assumption he's not lying scum.

A) He hits scum - success....(though his PR as he has explained it makes no sense when targeting scum as why would scum get to continue to talk but w/e)

B) He hits town - worse than just sad if he hits a doc, a cop, or a number of other useful PR's. This point right here makes you illogical town or scum...I'm heavily leaning the later.

C) There are a billion other possibilities that could happen as we a: dont know if scum have a roleblocker and b: you saying this is the third option makes me think you know there's a roleblocker vs just saying if there was. I say this because your point is so definite here: "He's roleblocked..." Not to mention you admit we lynch him anyway D2.

See, here's the problem. You aren't poking holes in anything I've said about his role being bad for town....all you're doing is trying to get us to push him to use it. Time and time again I've said how this PR is bad for town if it even exist and time and time again you come back with "we could get scum with it" totally ignoring everything I say.

Sorry for the "setting this up" crap. Let me clarify, you're scum. JL is most likely your partner and you both should die.

At town: I suggest we lynch JL or Net today and the other tomorrow. I don't like the PR claim and if he truly has the power, then I want him lynched today so he doesn't get a chance to use it because if it is a power in this game, it makes more sense being a pro-scum PR than pro-town. W/e his flip, I suggest Net tomorrow.

[Chinaman]

Net: All in all, what you're saying is you would rather JL prove himself town by stumping someone tonight even when the chances of him hitting a town PR are greater than him hitting a scum. The chances of him hitting scum are smaller than hitting a town PR by pure numbers. There is no arguing that point as it's a pure numbers game. But you know what, I'm tired of arguing with one person.

Everyone: We need everyone to answer these please. Do you think JL really has the power he claimed? If JL really has this power, do you think it's a scum PR or town PR? If it's a town PR, do you want him to use it N1? If yes, do you think we should collectively discuss who he should use it on, a list of a few people he should use it on one of, or just let him choose on his own?

My answers. No I do not. I would lean scum PR. No, definitely not N1. If the rest of you think he should, then I would say we collectively discuss a list of 2 or 3 people for him to choose from.

[Chinaman]

Net and Fuzz, why does Dana look really bad when I have basically been saying the same thing and I'm not being called out? Granted, I have explained my thought process but other than that, what's the difference?

[Chinaman]

China, if you were the mod and wanted to make the role that JL has claimed suitable for a town-aligned player, what would you do?

Well, I would have made the "stump" unkillable for starters. If the power exists in this fashion, it would have been much more useful if not used N1.

All in all I don't like this power in a non-tree stump game due to the fact of our town PR's are in danger more than the scum. Especially if we are telling him to prove it on N1.

It just doesn't make sense to me in the current way JL has explained it to be good for town. It's going to hurt us more than help I think. If he does really have the power though, it's much more useful as a scum PR. NK one townie, Stump another (currently most would think JL confirmed townie by doing this). Scum could have possibly gotten rid of 2 PR's in one night and if we have a doc and that doc got lucky in protecting the NK, they still stumped someone and took away any power they might have had (it is my current understanding that stumping isn't protectable). JL would be confirmed town by most and if that stumped townie was targeted a townie D2 as scum and had a good case, they could kill the stump and set up even more town. The list goes on and on for the good it could do for a scum PR. As a town PR, we MIGHT get scum with it....that's it.

Call it a stumping PR or call it a vig PR, I don't really care for either in the town's hands. The only people who can be sure of who they are killing/stumping are the scum and townie vig's/stumpers are just shooting in the dark.

All in all, when I read dana's p292, I can't disagree with it even if it is really short and not well explained.

[Chinaman]

Can anybody tell me why it would be a bad idea to wait on the off-chance that Lyman MIGHT clear himself tonight? Anybody? I mean, sure, it's probable that scum has a roleblocker, but there is a chance that they don't, and I think we're all going to be smacking ourselves on the forehead if we don't at least give it a shot.

Still not really seeing what he did pre-claim that was so serious either. I see some light tells, but nothing hugely serious. Certainly not compared to the fuss you folks are making about him.

Do I really have to say it AGAIN!?? HE...COULD...HIT...A...TOWN...PR...WITH...THIS...POWER...IF...HE...HAS...IT...AND...THAT...WOULD...BE...BAD. Given that this is a theme game, I imagine there are more townie's with PR's than there are without. THAT'S why it's a bad idea for us to "wait on the off-chance that Lyman MIGHT clear himself tonight". I would rather him live and NOT use his power (if he has it) than for him to clear himself by using it. Well, I'd really rather him die today, but we've been through this. But again, if the majority want him to use it in an attempt to let himself prove he's town, then I have a short list of 3 people he could choose from that would be less likely to really hurt the town. I choose 3 because it gives him the best chance to clear himself and give scum a 33% chance of stopping him vs a probably 100% chance if we pick one person and a really good chance of him hitting a good town PR if we let him choose on his own.

I'll disclose the 3 if the majority want to give him the chance to prove himself.

[Chinaman]

Aye, first thing Net and I have seen eye to eye on. A X-mas gift would be nice

[Chinaman]

All in all I don't like this power in a non-tree stump game due to the fact of our town PR's are in danger more than the scum. Especially if we are telling him to prove it on N1.

Why are town PRs more in danger than scum?

dana and China, what are your feelings on one shot vigs? China, is yours summed up in the following?

Call it a stumping PR or call it a vig PR, I don't really care for either in the town's hands. The only people who can be sure of who they are killing/stumping are the scum and townie vig's/stumpers are just shooting in the dark.

Have you ever played in a game with a pro-town vig?

Lyman, upon further thought, I'd say feel free to use your stumping ability whenever it feels right, including tonight if you like. I will expect a complete explanation of whether or not you used it and on who in your first post tomorrow. You're not off the hook, but I'm happy to see you live another day.

There's got to be scum on the 2nd Lyman wagon.

Wow, well, first I'll answer your questions even though you didn't answer mine (though I can get the just of how you'd answer it from your post, you didn't answer it directly but w/e).

As for your first question, I answered this already. It's a numbers game at this point. Without delving too far in, let's just for arguments sake say there are 3 scum to 9 town. Lets say that only half of the town have PR's (though I'd be willing to bet more). That's 4 town PR's to 3 scum with or without PR's. Now, I've seen other setups, but this is for arguments sake remember. Pure odds say that if JL just shoots from the hip, he most likely hits a town PR over a scum and definitely more likely hits a townie over scum. That's if it's used today. That's if he has it at all. That's why I say it's not good for town. Was that too hard for you to follow THIS time?

Second question, yes, my opinion was summed up in the part you quoted me and yes I have played with them. I never see it hit scum on D1.

Now, to your comments. First off,

FoS MacavityLock

for the same reason I suspect Net. Anyone wanting JL to use this power tonight (even if you leave it to his discretion) is suspect for me. I think its clearly obvious that if used right now it would be detrimental to town. Secondly, I don't even believe him and I think he's scummy for other reasons. One not unimportant reason is because I have seen ZERO scumhunting from him. NONE! Add that with AtE and his nack for agreeing with anyone who questions his posts, I say he's a mighty fine lynch

Now, to the stuff not to me. JL is by no means safe today and hopefully he won't "live another day". To state that is just ridiculous and almost subliminal messaging.

Also, explain to me how you are certain there is scum on his wagon? It is quite possible that JL isn't lynched yet do to scum NOT being on his wagon...you know, cuz he's scum.

Also, I caught this nice little quote from you earlier

Right now, I'm thinking that if Lyman is around tonight, he should not be using this treestumping shot tonight. Saving it for later, once we've got fewer targets is probably a better idea.

What changed from this quote to your most recent one about him using it whenever he'd like blah blah blah?

Another reason I suspect you is because of your suspect list. This is the least suspicious due to there being more town than scum but...
--------------------------------------
For those who have yet to answer, please do so in your next post. I don't know why you're avoiding it. I'll post it again here:

-Do you think JL really has the power he claimed?
-If JL really has this power, do you think it's a scum PR or town PR?
-If it's a town PR, do you want him to use it N1?
-If yes, do you think we should collectively discuss who he should use it on, a list of a few people he should use it on one of, or just let him choose on his own?

Add this one too.
-In your opinion, what are the odds we wake tomorrow with a successful stump? Explain your reasoning.

Again, I would like EVERYONE playing this game to answer these questions.

[Chinaman]

China, I seem to notice two threads in your arguments that I think are getting a bit too blurred. On the one hand, you seem to be saying that you don't believe the claim. On the other, you seem to be saying that you believe the claim but are arguing for a policy lynch? Do you think you could clear up this confusion a bit?

Sure Net. There are 2 thoughts going on in my head. One, the power as JL has claimed it seems...well, a tad bit overdone. I can't do it right now, but I will go back through and Isolate what his power does exactly as he has explained it. When I read it as it was going on, I thought that it was just too CF'ed of an explanation by JL for him not to be pulling it out his butt.

Second thought process must be there in case he DOES have it. I'm not a fan of vigs or in this case, vig-like-powers to begin with. They are a tad bit more useful when used later in the game, but I have explained it already.

I will be doing one more thing when I go back. If I remember correctly, yes JL was at L-1 or close to it, but there was plenty of time for him to argue his way out of it without claiming. Why resort to a claim so quickly? Then, when he claims it, it's a jumbled mess of a claim....

Those will be in my next post. All in all, I'm leaning toward him not having it. If he does, then I don't want him using it so early.

[Chinaman]

Mac- I did say I was going to go back as I didn't remember exactly how it happened.

As for your 4 questions:

First, in the themed games I have played in and reviewed, even the vanilla townie has added information that in a normal game they wouldn't have. For instance, in a recent starwars game I was in, I was a VT but had info about someone else. I didn't know if they were for sure a scum role, but I knew their name, and that they the person they played was "the lady of the sith" so I had a pretty good idea. Every other townie had a PR even if it wasn't a useful one (insane cop, paranoid cop, etc). So, in my experience, it's usually more than 1/2 the town with PR's. Could be that's not the case here, but I'm betting it is.

Secondly, it could be there is some bussing, but it could be there isn't. Speculation of such at this point with no flip is pure WIFOM. I just thought it odd you seemed to be very sure there was.

Thirdly I meant it's the least telling or almost a null tell that your list has who it has on it.

As for your last question, I will answer it once more people have answered the question of mine that you have a question about.

If I can analyze your posts correctly, your suspicious list includes:
Me
Blood
Snow
and Dana

Is there a reason Budja isn't on there?

As for your list, if the majority want to let JL live today and attempt to clear himself tonight with a stump, I think your list would be a very good short list of people he should choose from.

I would say that he target me specifically, but I don't want scum to know exactly who he's targeting tonight. All in all, I would be most afraid of him hitting someone with a PR, but I don't mind being one of the targets he has to choose from as I am without a power but still town.

I'm on the fence about asking others like me to step up and put their names in the hat so that he can prove himself if he is indeed town. I say this because if there were 4 of us who threw our names in the hat, that narrows the field down for scum on which town have PR's. What are your thoughts?

[Chinaman]

Chinaman, how many theme games have you played? How many minis? How many mini themes? I don't often see games with that many PRs.

Wagon-examination isn't as useful as it would be with some flips, but this is pretty much true for any scumhunting on Day 1. Do you not believe it's a valid scumhunting method?

Is there a reason Budja isn't on there [your suspicious list]?

It's because I don't think he's been all that suspicious. What else do you want me to say?

I would say that he target me specifically, but I don't want scum to know exactly who he's targeting tonight. All in all, I would be most afraid of him hitting someone with a PR, but I don't mind being one of the targets he has to choose from as I am without a power but still town.

Why would you offer yourself up to a vig, either as town or scum? You dying hurts your win condition no matter what, so I'm not sure I understand your motive behind this, except maybe in terms of other people's reads.

I'm on the fence about asking others like me to step up and put their names in the hat so that he can prove himself if he is indeed town. I say this because if there were 4 of us who threw our names in the hat, that narrows the field down for scum on which town have PR's. What are your thoughts?

Yeah, this is a bad idea.

-I guess your experience is different than mine.

-It is a valid scumhunting method when used with other scummy things. By itself, it's just WIFOM.

-I dunno, thought since quite a few people thought some of the stuff he was doing as scummy, I thought he'd be on your list as well.

-I explained why I would offer myself up in the part you quoted man. It's not that hard to understand. Plus, I wouldn't be dead if I was stumped would I? Something not right about this part. Please explain how you missed my explanation in the part you quoted AND why you are calling JL's claimed role a vig all a sudden when it's not.... Also, tell me how turning into a stump hurts my win condition if I am without a power and can still talk.

-Yeah, thought so.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-I will say I was in another game with him very very recently where he was scum and he did not try and gambit claim. I'm actually on the fence now that I saw his flip in the other game. He got caught pretty easy and it was a pretty easy lynch. So I'm thinking now he might really be just that new at this. I'm starting to lean on wanting him to prove he's town with this power. I dunno, if it weren't such a ridiculous power I'd be much more inclined to let him pass today and prove it.

[Chinaman]

yeah. town win condition, win when all threats to the town have been eliminated. I don't need life to win. If I can still post, and am confirmed town, then scum can either waste a NK on me if I'm doing well in scumhunting, or leave me be to help the town. Only thing taken away is my vote. So yeah, still offering. Better me with no PR than a townie with a PR. But alas, I don't think we should tell JL to stump only me tomorrow as it will help the scum with their decisions about NK's. So, it's not a VIG for #$% sake, it's different from a VIG in that I still post.

Now, JL might not have this power at all. But after looking some stuff up on Richard Curtis, I would be surprised if this wasn't his actual role. Looking at the other game I was in with JL, I don't think we would come up with the name, the film, and a role that explained the two into this. I am confused as to why he wasn't Mod-killed for the post you quoted on him when he explains it and it looks like an almost direct quote from his PM, but maybe the Mod is being nice. It very much looks like something the Mod would write as it is similar in tone to the PM I received.

That being said, I think I actually believe JL now after looking back through and with the post you quoted above. THAT being said, I don't like the PR and I still think it's stupid to use it N1.

Unvote

I would request JL not use this PR. Even though I don't like the PR, I'm willing to believe he has it for now and won't vote him even if there is no stump tomorrow. I would request he wait to use it another night when we have a smaller chance of hitting town PR's, but w/e.

Damn it all to hell. Now I have to go back and find someone else who's scummy. /sigh. I'll prolly start with Snow-Bunny for the reasons Mac had pointed out earlier and see if there is anything else.

[Chinaman]

Alright, so looking back, if I'm not going to lynch JL and give him a chance to prove his towniness, I'm going to say the next best lynch would be Budja. I can rattle off the reasons at a later time, but besides some of the posts I don't like of his, I think his flip would be more telling than anyone else's as well. Those combined allow me to

Vote: Budja

with a fairly peaceful mind.

If more of us come to this conclusion, I would have the hammerer wait till everyone has had a chance to post/defend before they hammer. I for one very much want to add something at the end of D1, so please don't hammer till I get a chance to do so. I will post this addition once we have someone who wants to put the hammer vote on. If you hammer before I get to talk, you are scum, so keep that in mind.

HAPPY NEW YEAR YA'LL!!!!

[Chinaman]

Alright, since my time is pretty limited here, I'm going to go ahead and tell you all some fun info I have. As I have said, I am town. I will add now (as it looks like we will have a Budja lynch soon) that I do have some fun info about one other person. It isn't as fun as knowing they are scum, but it is info that they are for sure town. I don't want to out and out say who it is as I think it's best for us to wait and see what happens tonight, but I will say that this person also knows that I am town. I'm pretty confident that Budja will flip scum. I don't believe his claim at being town and being purely without anything useful.

Also, to anyone paying attention, I had an convo with someone where I stated I believe that the odds were good that town had more special stuff (knowledge, power, etc) then we did pure vanilla. Part of the reason I believe this is because I know there are 2 town that know eachother is town. It's not a super cool power/knowledge role, but it's more than plain vanilla townie.

Hammer Budja now please. Also, I will say now that if Budja flips scum, the others I am most leaning scum are Net and DeathSauce. JL is not off my list either until we see a stump. We'll talk more about him tomorrow though I guess.

[Chinaman]

You.....you.....you just claimed Mason! And you're asking us to go to night

without revealing your partner

! No way I'm hammering before we hear more.

And I'll go ahead and say it - I know that your little hypothesis is false because I am vanilla and have no further information or role.

Nobody else follow up on his little rolefishing attempt here. Unless he verifies that Mason claim, I recommend lynching him. Immediately.

Why would I reveal my partner? How am I rolefishing? Why would it not be better keep my partner secret for now. Multiple good things for town can happen by doing this. Outing us both now on Day 1 would be the dumb thing. Why would you want more info going to scum about who my partner is? As of right now, they don't know, how would them knowing not be beneficial.

See, I think you have it backwards Net, and I think it is you who have made a slip. You accuse ME of rolefishing yet it is you who want my partner to claim and confirm me. THAT sounds like rolefishing to me. Also, if I were stumped, how would that not be a pretty good deal for town as I would still be able to talk and I know of at least one other person who is town.

Needless to say, Budja isn't my partner and neither are you. As for who I think is scum, I would say it's you and Budja. You're bussing him now and with my info out there, you think you may have found a way to save him by lynching me "immediately".

I stand by what I said in saying that not outing the other person at this time is better for town.

Also, your explanation about you accusing me of rolefishing is ridiculous. I didn't ask for anyone to give any more information about it. I simply posted my thoughts about it and added another reason of why I, PERSONALLY am voting Budja and don't believe his claim. You're totally getting my vote tomorrow Net. Die scum die!

[Chinaman]

Ok, for clarification.

The VT vs PR thoughts of mine are just that, thoughts. I haven't completed a ton of games but in my personal experience, there have been more town PR's than VT's in mini Themes. This is NOT to say there are no VT's. I just personally feel that if there were 9 townies, at least 4 of them would have a PR or extra knowledge of some sort in a mini theme. Look at it from my point of view. I know of at least 2 townies that aren't VT's. Add in the near standard Cop and Doc roles (NOT saying they exist in this game, but again, in my experience....) and that's 4 townies that aren't VT. If you believe JL's claim, that makes 5....well over half the townies that aren't VT. In mini themes there seem to be even rarer PR's for town as well. So, that's where I'm coming from with the VT vs town PR numbers.

We have 2 claimed VT's now I believe. It's the best claim for scum is it not? Well, if not the best, the safest. It is NOT however the ONLY reason I am good with lynching Budja today though. It's not the only reason I voted him. I will now say however, I kinda wanna lynch Net today over Budja. I also don't like that Fuzzy wanted me to out my partner as well. Guess what guys, they can come out when they want to and imag had it exactly right that they should do so before lylo to make it a town win.

I said I didn't have a whole lot of time left due to my claim and no other reason. I figured after I let you know that I was town with a partner, scum would want to get rid of me quickly especially since I'm not going to give my partner away just yet. It makes sense. It also makes sense that if we had a Doc, I might have given him/her a good target to save. It also makes sense that a shit ton of other scenarios could happen at night so I'm not going to list them all.

I'm sorry for all of you who feel I played my role wrong or incorrectly, but after putting myself into nomination for stumping and after my discussion of why I don't want JL to randomly choose someone, I felt it was a pretty good time to claim. All in all, bite me if you don't like it .

I believe I have answered the clarification questions but to reiterate: I claimed b/c I thought it was a good time to do so due to the convo that has happened today, and YES, as I have already stated, my partner and I know eachother are town.

All in all, I think the scum in this game are thoroughly confused at what to do tonight. They have me, who is easily confirmable town, they have JL who could get lucky and stump them and if he doesn't stump one of them, he can at least confirm another townie (if he's not lying about the power), they have 2 people who have claimed VT (at least one of which I don't really believe tbh), and they now know my partner is out there somewhere.

[Chinaman]

....You're a loony.

Seriously, why did you choose now to claim other than "Because I wanted to?" You really don't justify that choice at all in your post, and that bothers me.

LOL, yes net, I did. You know the whole part about where I said with all that's gone on today that scum should be thoroughly confused? Well, my claim is part of their confusion ya loon.

Unvote

to prevent Net from hammering and will wait to see if anyone else is up for a Net lynch over Budja today.

[Chinaman]

Net, how? how is my claim scummy? How does scum-me benefit from claiming mason? How is this play so terrible? Where is it anti-town? Show me some quotes man and not just random finger pointing. Prove to everyone where you're coming up with these accusations of me rather than just trying to convince everyone they are there without proof.

I'm so ready for you to be swinging. I think everything you have said since my claim has been one big scumslip.

[Chinaman]

Chinaman, please answer my questions below.

China, what does the following mean?

I don't believe his claim at being town and being purely without anything useful.

Also, I too would like answers to the below.

1. Are you and your partner confirmed town to each other? (v. important to know now)
2 Why claim?

I think you gave an answer to "Why claim?", but the others remain unanswered. The important point: Does your role PM say that your partner is definitely 100% town?

p430 answers everything in your post.

I'm not even going to respond to the retardation that is p438. Seriously, way to not respond to p435, then accuse me of crap without quotes AGAIN! LOL. And you say MY play is bad!

Answer my questions with quotes scumbag, instead of just talking out your ass.

@Budja: Why would Net have hammered you so early as scum? That would be dumb. If you flipped town he would have died D2 for quickly hammering you. Because he didn't hammer you doesn't mean he's not scum.

[Chinaman]

omg. really? It's simple guys. This is a mini theme. Mini Themes usually have an above average amount of PR's or extra fun things mixed in with a town role. For instance, in another mini theme I was in, I was straight VT BUT I knew what one other person's game name was and that person was Lady of the Sith. I didn't know for sure that she was scum, but it was pretty obvious based on that added info I had in my role PM that she was. Anyway, I have tried explaining this too much again for some of you so in 5 year old explanation terms.

In my experience mini themes have an above average amount of PR's. I'm not saying that we have zero VT's, but I'm saying we have very few. I don't believe his claim about being VT for many reasons. There probably being a good number of town PR's plays into the decision for me not believing his claim BUT IS NOT THE ONLY REASON. Get off it already. I never said my sole reason for voting him was because he claimed VT. Jeebus.

Is that clear enough? If not, let me know and I'll waste my time trying to explain it again.

Secondly, for the 3rd time, I am 100% positive my partner is town. They are 100% sure I am town.

And just because scum know who is town already doesn't mean my claim didn't confuse them. If you look back and read my post where I said this, you will see I was referring to them being confused as TO WHAT THEY SHOULD DO, not confused about anything else. By that I simply mean that if JL's claim is true, they have 3 people to deal with tonight that can prove their town. If we can prove 3 people town on D2, that's puts the odds in our favor. They have to take care of either me or JL tonight, but they don't know what JL is going to do and they know that if they kill me, there is a provable townie out there (my partner). My claim also reduces that chances of them hitting a Doc or Cop or other town PR that is more useful than mine or JL's as they will most likely try and target one of us. I stand by my claim and the timing of it. After the game we can discuss how I may have played it better.

BTW, failing to hammer is in no way shape or form a town or scum tell. It's null if anything. Town won't limit discussion by hammering early and scum aren't dumb enough to hammer early and end discussion. There are no town points or scum points awarded from not hammering early.

[Chinaman]

Mac: No, nothing is impossible. Due to my experience and thinking, odds are (in my mind) that we have very few VT's and I have a gut read that his claim was false. Short enough?

[Chinaman]

I'm flailing wildly? You would think that since I think your scummy for basically everything you've said about my claim and what you would like to see today because of it.

My claim makes me so easily provable as town it's ridiculous for you to want my lynch.
My claim makes absolutely zero sense to be coming from scum as it's so easily disprovable.
You want me to out my partner for no better reason than to give scum more info going into night
You wanting me lynched (because you think I'm lying...lol) is just another means to out my partner on the first day thus giving scum more info going into night.

Budja hit the nail on the head when he says that I would be a bad lynch. Do you disagree with that? Do you really wanna push a lynch on someone just to give scum 2 confirmed town to choose from during N1? I'm not saying Budja is town, but his view of you wanting my lynch is a pro-town view...yours is not.

To answer your question though net, I have completed 2 mini themes on chinaman. Both were exactly as I have expressed. My opinion of mini themes is based on my experience. Feel free to bring about whatever bogus stats you have. I say bogus because you can't possibly have gone through every single mini theme game to give factual stats about how they are most commonly set up. The best you can do is give stats based on those you have experience or read (prolly more than my 2 but w/e) exactly as I have done. To be honest, I can't fathom why you are hung up on this as I have stated over and over again that this is not the only reason I was voting Budja. I really don't see where you're going with it other than to try and get a wagon on me so that my partner has to be outed in order to save me from being lynched.

I do expect a full explanation to every question and point I have made towards you in this post. Should be interesting to see how you dodge most of them.

Vote: Net

[Chinaman]

lol at p472. so THAT's how youre going to dodge everything I said about you. Neat. I'm pretty sure you dodged it and posted your p472 because my post makes sense and you can't explain why you want to lynch a claimed mason. The thing is, you can't explain it which is why you ignored it.

FTW to all others. I'm not moving my vote today. period.

[Chinaman]

Alright Net, here was my thinking for claiming before night. This isn't really for you as I think your scum, but for those who think you have any sort of logical points on me.

We were seemingly about to lynch Budja. JL has claimed to be able to tree someone. Scum were most likely going to try and NOT let him tree someone and prove himself town. Since we weren't going to lynch him today, I thought he should have a better chance to prove himself town and we would have a confirmed town. Best way for me to do that is claim in my opinion. By claiming, scum now have to deal with 2 people who can confirm themselves town thus tomorrow, the chances are higher we will come in with at least one confirmed or confirmable town. I thought it was a good time to claim and so I did. I do NOT have to play my role how you think I should play it. I thought it was a good move so I took it. As an added bonus, if I die tonight, my partner has a very easy way of proving himself. I think the possiblilty of going into day 2 with provable town is good for us.

Now, please explain to everyone why lynching a claimed mason is a good thing. I don't see it. The only reason you would want to build a wagon on me is to out my partner D1. That is the ONLY possible outcome. You won't lynch me today because if worse comes to worse and I get down to L-1, my partner will out himself. That is the only outcome to you pushing a lynch on me.

Let me make this very clear with CAPS!

ONLY SCUM (or idiot town) WOULD WANT TO OUT MY PARNTER DAY 1.

Only scum Net. Since you are the one pushing this wagon on me, I choose you. If you flip town, then it's another person voting me. Pretty simple. I'm pretty sure it's you though so I'm not worried.

Hell, if it's not you and you fall into idiot town category, Me claiming has made a nice little list of very possible scum. There is at least one scum voting for me right now. Of that I am very certain.

Btw, you saying I would meet the rope made me laugh out loud. There is no possible scenario where I get lynched today. My partner will save me if you somehow convince outing my partner today is good for town. That's it.

Die now scumbag.

Note: I don't like all the lurking. This convo between me, net, budja, bc, and occasionally DS is getting old.

[Chinaman]

JL, mac and dana are all posting so poorly it hurts. I would rather lynch one of them at this point than some of the active players.

I still don't like Net's posts about my claim. I think the whole push was scummy. I also want to say that pushing for me to reveal my partner while my partner is obviously still in play is a little awkward to me. why not just ask for my partner to reveal themselves? I like imag's p515 overall, but the part about Net is in my mind just off. I do not think requesting me to reveal my partner is at all a town play whether he believed me or not. Like I said in a previous post, the whole push for my lynch would have never actually ended in my lynch, only the revealing of my partner. As for the BC push that is going on, could someone point me to what posts of his are so scummy? I'm looking back and I have to say I agree with most of his posts. It may be why you all felt I was scummy, but I'm just not seeing the scumminess. As for SB, I'm feeling the same way about her as I do BC currently. Just not seeing the scumminess. I've played with her before and her style of play is a null tell at best and shouldn't be considered as a reason for her lynch.

I find it odd the JL has disappeared once the heat was off him. I also think dana's seemingly active lurking is worrisome. Mac has also not joined in the convo once people realized trying to lynch me was dumb. I want more from these folks before we finalize a lynch for today.

[Chinaman]

I am on phone. do not lynch/hammer anyone till much closer to deadline. will write more tomorrow.

[Chinaman]

I have zero problem picking a wagon at this time.

I will hammer Budja (I believe he is at L-2). I would just vote for him now, but I do not want the possibility of stopping discussion even with this little of time left.

I have also seen a recent interesting fact. I see budja, imag, and mac all voting for snowbunny. I then see all 3 of those same people vote for BC on one page, 2 of which were one right after the other AAAANNNNNDDDD with little to no reason for switching their vote from snowbunny to BC in the posts they switch their votes in! This made me delve deeper. Take a look at this:

Imag's votes:

Nice work Macavity. Already one scum is caught in a web of his own weaving.

JL, Jason (now Dana), LL (now kik), Snow, BC.

Mac's votes: JL, Net, Snow, BC

Budja's votes: LL (now kik), Fuzzy, JL, BC, Fos: Snow and Dana, Snow, BC(iso 14, my bolding)

Josh: Scummy <- initial uncertainty, AtE, call for prods.
Locke: "meta" scum read. (dexter mafia)
Net: "meta" town read. (ongoing unfortunately)
Snow Bunny: Mildly Town

Macavity: Town, agree with pretty much all he says

Snow_Bunny: null - mildly town. I obv. disagree with her reasoning but if Josh town -> Snow likely town IMO.
jasonT1981: no read
ConfidAnon: no read
Chinaman: uncertain, leaning newb-town. Still a bit of a opportunistic feel.
Fuzzyman: town

imaginality: leaning town

BloodCovenent: null

Not once have they voted each other and often they are on the same wagons. The snow and BC wagons are prolly the weakest of them all.

I think DS hit the nail on the head with p560 as well. Budja has had the highest wagon count for awhile when Mac posts his p543. I had been on Budja's wagon as well and have said that he is on my scum list still. If Mac really wanted to vote for the person who could most "feasibly be lynched today", he would have voted Budja. Easy. Mac's p543 is a blatant lie.

If budja flips scum, mac and imag have some fun explaining to do. If all 3 aren't scum, I would bet 2 of them are.

On a side note, I was thinking about JL and his PR. It is very possible that if we have only 2 scum, JL's role could be a modification to a serial killer OR he could have flat out lied about being able to only do it once.

Questions/Comments/Thoughts?

[Chinaman]

actually, you voted budja in p557 already so with your vote included in my previous post, Budja is still at L-2. With deadline coming fast, I hope to hear from everyone before we lynch Budja. Especially curious to hear from the lurkers but want to hear what those I have accused have to say as well.

[Chinaman]

hey mac, do you think it's odd that imag decided to post in your defense before you? I sure as hell do. In fact, I think it's even more suspicious given your voting patterns and the fact that we are really close to deadline. I will tell you what I think about it after you tell me how you feel about it.

I honestly think this pegs you as pretty obv scum at this point imag. You are either hardcore buddying up to a town mac or you are covering for your scum buddy in case he didn't get around to posting before lynch.

Mac, please also explain to me how you can call Budja the easy lynch choice (ie, i read you saying that as Budja has played scummy as hell and is an easy target because people often like to lynch scummy play......correct me if I'm wrong) yet when it comes down to the 2 choices of feasible lynches, you think BC is the more scummy due to....uh....voting patterns? Let me say that I do realize that is part of my suspicion of you and imag, but I'm lynching the most scummy of the 3 of you first...which is Budja.... On that same note though, how can you justify your vote of BC yet ignore my thoughts surrounding you, budja, and imag's voting patterns?

Something just isn't adding up here. We have you 3 all posting here, and still none of you are even remotely suspicious of one another????? Lets look at the most recent posts in easy to read format (or at least exactly how it comes off).

Imag defends Mac
Mac defends himself with the same defense Imag gave a 1/2 hour earlier.
Budja has a town read on both of them and defends Mac with same argument.

Here is the breakdown of my problems with this exchange. Imag defends Mac. Why would a townie defend someone else? It's day one. Even in a town PR, you have zero way of knowing that anyone else is town (except me and my partner of course but I highly doubt there are 2 groups of masons). Also note that while I attacked Imag as well as Mac and Budja, he doesn't defend any of my thoughts on him and his connection with the other 2 but instead solidifies the connection (read scum-slip).

Next up we have Mac rewording Imag's post. If I'm town mac here, I have to ask myself why in the world is Imag speaking for me? Does he do that? No, he doesn't even mention Imag. Instead, he give a reluctant confirmation he will lynch Budja if the smaller wagon he is on doesn't go through.

Next we have the red-headed stepchild Budja. I have no way of seeing this post as anything a townie would say. If you're town Budja, and VT at that, how the hell do you know who is and isn't town. How bout before you go down, you give us your scum list? None of the rest of us townies give a rats ass who you think is town. We are trying to find scum, not town. Add in the fact you have yet to really try and defend yourself, makes you very hard to read as town. Needless to say, I highly doubt your flip will be anything but scum.

Oh, and to Budja's scumbuddies...I dare you to NK me tonight. pansies! bwahahahahaha

[Chinaman]

well, the 4 of us could go round and round with BC popping in to comment as well, but I'd like to get some other thoughts.

Basically it all boils down to me not seeing any of ya'lls posts between 569-572 being anything I would write in response to the post I wrote. I can humbly admit I read Mac's post a little off and took it to mean any lynch of eligible candidates would be ok, and just thought it odd he didn't pick the largest based on that, but I can see where out of the 2 most likely wagons, he has BC as scummier than Budja. I personally don't, but I digress, my scumdar isn't based on that anymore.

I still have voting patterns and responses you all have given as of late. They are all just really off to me and not how I see a townie reacting to them.

Imag, had you not been included in my suspicious list in the my post after which you defended Mac, I could buy the explanation you gave in p578, but seeing as I suspected you as well, I can't buy you just mentioning my thoughts on Mac and ignoring the thoughts on you as well.

Could I be totally off? Of course, I only know of one townie for sure. Do I think I'm totally off? Absolutely not. Mac's p577 is the closest to a townie post in response to what I've said thus far as any of you have given. Problem is it came only after I mentioned it didn't come before.

But I digress. I'm not going to go round and round with people I have suspicions about. Once others decide to chime in, we can start anew. Tomorrow (real time) should be interesting to say the least.

[Chinaman]

I will ask you (Mac and Imag) this though. In Budja's most recent posts, why do you think these would be coming from a townie over coming from scum? Everything he writes screams scum to me...how am I (and apparently 4 others) so very wrong and it is you 2 who are right?

[Chinaman]

Oh, and Mac, I WAS going to wait but decided it didn't really matter at this point. I meant to take out the part about waiting for you to answer. /shrug

Btw, I'm not proved town yet and you all think my attacks are full of holes yet none of you are saying I'm scum and just lying about being a Mason. Not saying that this is a tell for you all, but I will say it shows me that some (if not all) of you already know I'm town (cuz...you know...you're scum). It's a very small footnote in a growing list, but it's there for me at least. (I know, I attack Net for trying to lynch me and out my partner before it's time and I attack you all for not mentioning it as a possibility....life just so isn't fair!)

[Chinaman]

Yes imag, but you commented on it with a positive feel for Mac vs suspicion. How you can not be suspicious of every little detail in a game like Mafiascum when playing town is beyond me. Hell, if my role PM didn't specifically tell me that I knew my partner was of like mind, I would suspect that person as well! It's part of being town. You don't worry about your town reads as it's a scums job to look as town as possible (meaning agreeing with town when they are on the road to mislynching). As town, you worry about minor details that don't always make sense. This is something you've failed to do over and over again when it concerns Budja and Mac. That is where I'm coming from. The same could be said of Mac in reference to you and Budja (minus p577).

*last post without other peoples comments...I swear.*

[Chinaman]

Damn it all to hell.

Did I miss major V/LA from some folks or something? Deadline is fast approaching and there are 5 people doing most the talking/case building. Net has not answered Snowbunny and indeed it looks like both have a little OMGUS going on (though I don't care to look back to see who started it).

MOD: Where the hell is JL. You have not mentioned prodding or replacing him yet his last post is in freaking December.

To all others, depending on what the mod's answer with JL is, I would just assume to lynch him today. I mean seriously. The heat comes off with most of us at least buying he has a PR (whether it be scum, serial killer, town, or otherwise), and he just stops posting?

Also, Dana, how bout you pay attention to a game you're in and in fact replaced into.

Those I would like to post something today:

-Dana (something useful. Last post: Dec 21st)
-Fuzzy (something more than 2 effin lines. I ISO'ed you and out of 37 posts, only 5 are more than 2 liners. Ridiculous to the point of actively lurking. Last post: Jan 5th)
-JL (or Mod with info. Last post: Dec 27th)
-Net (regarding new occurances/wagons)
-Kik (something not related to you catching up)

Looking at that list, I could easily see those of us who are mainly talking being town fighting with town due to lack of any tells at all from some of the above. I don't think that to be the case and am still for a Budja lynch today, but just putting the thought out there.

[Chinaman]

If you hammer before we get the Mod in to tell us what happened to JL, before those who still need to post (those who havent posted since Dec) get a chance to post and before I get another chance to post, I will be greatly of the opinion that you are scum. Just so you know. It's a scum move to hammer before the above have happened in my book. That hammer goes for either Budja or BC.

you = anyone

[Chinaman]

I think you're fine fuzzy. we wont have a no lynch

sleep tight

[Chinaman]

the upcoming is going to be really really fun guys. sorry if you're town budja.../shrug

[Chinaman]

/confirm BC is my mason

vote: Budja

If budja somehow does not flip scum, I'm betting Imag is for sure scum due to other things but now mostly this:

I'll switch to Budja. Too late to lynch anyone else today.

Better hope we're right about Budja!

[Chinaman]

Budja already claimed VT.

[Chinaman]

Alright, so as the day ends in the morning (at least for me), I'd really like to confirm we have a lynch.

[Chinaman]

I'll get to your question Sanhora, but do realize that with JL (now your) claimed role, we needed to see proof of it last night. I for one am still in the camp that it a BS claim. You had me or BC to use it on thus confirming that you had the ability (and putting you more in town list till later [read possible anti-town role]), confirming me and BC as mason partners (by targeting just one of us), and with Mac being targeted by scum last night, we have at least 2 confirmed townies (one stumped) and you confirming that JL was at least telling the truth about his power.

Now we have no stump and you claiming to want to hold on to it. Just because you replaced in, doesn't mean that we, the town, didn't want you to use your power last night and at least confirm you had it and thus leading us to give the benefit of the doubt that since you didn't lie about the role, maybe you (JL) didn't lie about the town part of it.

The fact that you didn't use the power even though you had to of known that the majority wanted you to use it, and the fact that I'm a man of my word,

Vote: Sanhora

If you didn't know who was the scummiest, then you should have targeted the claimed masons. JEEBUS, it's more than half the reason I claimed!!!! To give JL (you) a target at night in case this very dilemma surfaced!! All you have done now, IMO, is make yourself the lynch for today.

As for me, I am Dawn French. BC, or Jennifer Saunders, and I met long ago, worked together and became friends. I know BC would never do anything to harm the town and I can chat with him anytime with our mobile phones (yeah, we can text day or night).

As for proving the chat ability, I think BC and I could prolly come up with a way to prove that if need be.

As for you, you haven't proven crap and I honestly won't buy any reason you give for not using your PR that you also claim to have. You had to of at least known from reading that the majority said use it or be lynched D2, so you chose the latter.

[Chinaman]

Oops

Vote: Sanhora

[Chinaman]

LOL, I really honestly don't have to explain crap.

Btw, I personally see a HUGE difference between killing a player and stumping a player. does the stump get to vote, no, does the stump lose any PR, yeah....WHICH IS WHY I CLAIMED! stumping a mason not only proves that I can prove my partner (which is why I didn't want to out BC btw) but I can still hunt for scum! It would have been win/win (at least in my eyes which is why of course I gave myself up as a perfect target).

Anyway, could you please post the date that the above quote of mine came from. Are people not allowed to change their minds? I happened to do just that and if my guess is right, that quote is from long ago with much discussion since. Had it been the day before lynch, you might have something, but you don't.

Also, all this suspicion my way makes me suspect you even more. I asked myself why BC and I were both alive come morning and one of my tops suspects was a dead townie. Hmm...what could the possible reason be? Oh, I know! To set either BC or myself up today! If scum could get one of us lynched, they could NK the other thus eliminating both (IMO confirmed) players.

We can pretty much confirm this anyway today just so I don't have to defend against stupid crap being thrown my way all day.

Let me ask you ALL this. Do you think that the scum in this game have day talk ability? I have personally never seen it, and I'm 99% sure it's not a power given to scum in 99% of MS games. I'm sure some Mod some where has done it, but I digress, if BC and I can prove we have day talk ability, then I think that would pretty much clear us as town correct?

[Chinaman]

Alright, so I changed my mind in that most everyone else wanted a stump today in order to prove your townie claim. That didn't happen. How long do we have to wait for a stump that in my opinion won't even prove you're town but only prove that you have the PR.

Net, unlike the other game you mentioned, I think it's pretty easy to say that me and my partner are fairly easily town. We can prove we have day talk and although DS doesn't seem to think that proves anything, I would think he is a minority. I won't even mention how contradictory all of p653 is...

I will however agree that maybe I was being a little rude. I'm just a little frustrated that so far, this day has consisted of hunting a claimed mason (me) and not looking at the who was wanting my lynch AND BC's lynch yesterday. I will post my thoughts on that ASAP. Gotta go for now.

[Chinaman]

well, mason's with daytalk are a bit more common (like a shit ton more common) than a stumping ability outside of a tree-stump theme game.

[Chinaman]

I will get to questions sent my way when I have a little more time, but for now, I just wanted to get a few things out there.

First off,

Unvote

Sanhora's recent posts are, imo, very good scum hunting. I especially enjoyed p663. I also say that I have to agree that I also do not believe that the wagons mentioned were completely town driven as well.

That being said, I will get to your other posts when I have a little more time.

As for the possible scum in this game, the list below is mine and BC's list of possible scum. We have the advantage of knowing one more person who isn't scum than the rest of you, but buying into BC and I's claim, you all (read town) have the advantage of knowing TWO more town players than I or BC (again, if you're town). I honestly think scum not killing myself or BC last night was their complete and utter downfall. The only reason I can fathom for this is to try and set us up today as a possible scum team instead of our claimed town team.

As for proving we have daytalk ability, you all are correct. It doesn't prove we are town unfortunately. All it proves is that part of what I'm saying is a fact. You will have to make the judgment call whether or not you believe the rest. I can't/haven't proven it yet because the only way I see of being able to do so is by talking to BC in our personal thread, coming up with a list of questions and answers for one another, and posting them in rapid succession with little to no time in between. In order to confirm for a fact that we didn't just come up with this last night as scum night talk, we will need one other person to be around to give us a random topic to ask/answer a question about. By that I mean, let's say Sanhora is around and tells us to ask/answer a question about starwars through our daytalk ability. I think the possibility of us coming up with that same topic last night (if we were scum) would be realistically impossible.

Now for BC and I's list of possible scum. I highlight Sanhora for 2 reasons. One, I think his/her (don't know which you are) recent posts are some really good scumhunting and as a claimed town PR, I now think he/she should indeed be a later looked at lynch. Not because I suddenly like that we have no stump today and his/her explanation of why, but because it's a claim of a power role. Net is also highlighted due to his VT claim and as I can see from our kills, we have 2 dead VT's so my thoughts about there being few VT's in a themed game are out the window. No matter how the following convo goes, those not highlighted are the only ones I think would be the best lynch for the town to make.

Faraday
Snow_Bunny
DeathSauce
Fuzzyman
imaginality
kikuchiyo

Sanhora

Netopalis

Now, due to mostly in part by Sanhora's vote analysis and due to my suspicions from yesterday

Vote: Imaginality

As of right now, I have no idea what roles we have out there for town, but just shooting from the hip, if we had a Cop that had a successful investigation from last night, we could possibly narrow down the above list of 8 down to 6 (the cop and the investigated if the investigation came back town). At this point, I don't think it's worth claiming though. Unless we are unlucky enough to target the Cop or the investigated townie, then I think the cop should wait till we have fewer numbers so that he/she can get at least one more investigation in (kinda a "duh" statement I know). That is if we even have a cop which isn't a for sure thing....but it sure would make things easier.

[Chinaman]

I am also still here but very busy atm. will post soon I hope. Will also get with BC and prove we have daytalk, though I admit it won't prove us town, it's at least something.

[Chinaman]

dang you BC. Dang you to the hot place and back.

I sadly am going to have to ask the same. Real life is getting pretty hectic right now and there is just no time for MS. I'm very sorry all.

Ortolan, I'm very sorry for making you find yet another replacement. Your game is interesting and it's not due to a lack of interest in this game but rather more important stuff happening in the outside world. I would stick around but my posts would be worthless and that would be more unfair to your game than replacing out.

Sorry to the rest of you as well. GL finding the scum town. Hope you win!

MOD: Please replace