Mini 891 - British Comedy Mafia (Game Over)

[Sanhora]

When looking at this post, I get a huge deja vu. And I don't even have to wonder why, because I'm looking once again at China hiding behind his claim to try to prevent himself for having to explain his actions. One of his many scummy actions.
But yes, you're correct. That quote was from some time ago. But that doesn't mean that you can just wave it off. You can still explain why you've changed your mind.

Also, in case you didn't know, ML was having suspicions regarding you and BC. With his help, the case against you would have been much stronger than using NK specualtion.
And guess what, you're not even my top suspect.

Will respond to the last bit later as I have to go now.
But yeah, you can start by trying to make support statements for the day-talk ability.

[Netopalis]

China, it's a good thing for you that you claimed Mason, because otherwise I'd be pushing for your lynch so hard right now....

LOL, I really honestly don't have to explain crap.

Listen to yourself. Is this honestly how you think? Do you really think that you're impressing anyone? This is how you lost Trendy and Subversive, and it's not helpful at all. You need to respond to questions posed to you, you need to give well-thought-out and logical reasons for your votes and you need to stop acting so arrogant and abrasive. Seriously.

[kikuchiyo]

Sorry about deadline. I tried to log in several times and post but was unable. At least on my computer, it seemed as though the whole site was slow for several days and when I would log on or try to post I would get a white screen and then an error message. I'd like to hear from our "masons" as to some bandwagon analysis and don't really see any reason that we shouldn't have a stump among us. Was Josh Lyman guaranteed survival through the night? I am going to reread some and post my own analysis when I can.

[DeathSauce]

Sorry, I don't see how proving that you have the ability to daytalk confirms anything. I have seen several recent games where the scum could daytalk.

Not to mention there is this rule from page 1:

15) Do not discuss or reference this game outside of the thread

in any way, shape or form

; while it is ongoing.

Emphasis mine.

Seems to me this would forbid daytalking as well, since it would be discussing the thread outside the thread

[Netopalis]

Deathsauce: Constructing rule 15 as you are would prohibit night-talking as well, which would be ridiculous. Roles trump game rules.

[Chinaman]

Alright, so I changed my mind in that most everyone else wanted a stump today in order to prove your townie claim. That didn't happen. How long do we have to wait for a stump that in my opinion won't even prove you're town but only prove that you have the PR.

Net, unlike the other game you mentioned, I think it's pretty easy to say that me and my partner are fairly easily town. We can prove we have day talk and although DS doesn't seem to think that proves anything, I would think he is a minority. I won't even mention how contradictory all of p653 is...

I will however agree that maybe I was being a little rude. I'm just a little frustrated that so far, this day has consisted of hunting a claimed mason (me) and not looking at the who was wanting my lynch AND BC's lynch yesterday. I will post my thoughts on that ASAP. Gotta go for now.

[kikuchiyo]

Just pointing out the logic fail here:

If "stumping" isn't going to prove alignment to you, why should "daytalk ability" prove alignment to anyone else?

After rereading the recent action a bit closer I think the best course of action is to focus on who buddied/defended Josh Lyman yesterday. Whether he is scum or town, it is a good bet that at least one scum was involved in such behavior. Sanhor would still have the option of stumping a "mason" tonight. Their excuse for not using the ability is a bit "meh", though, as I don't see why they wouldn't have taken a shot. Their was no guarantee of being protected and choosing not to use your ability when you are an outed "power role" just seems odd. Either way, I'm going to look into the aforementioned group and see what I can find.

[Chinaman]

well, mason's with daytalk are a bit more common (like a shit ton more common) than a stumping ability outside of a tree-stump theme game.

[Netopalis]

Personally, I've never seen either ability in games that I've played.

[Faraday]

Daytalk masons aren't common at all; I've seen them in Lynch All Lurkers and eh that's about all I can remember off hand. Well all Aes Sedai could daytalk in WOT but alignment wasn't confirmed.

How exactly can you prove you have daytalk abillity anyway? Or say prove you're daytalking masons over scum. Anyway I don't think you're fakeclaiming but the quote Neto points about above isn't helpful or anything like it.

[BloodCovenent]

Classes started this week and i have been a little overwhelmed. I will get to this game after classes and lunch tomorrow.

Sorry guys. And I didn't notice that this started back up :X

[Netopalis]

Oh, and also....

Why were you so suspicious of Lyman given:

A) Your odd role

B) Your belief that everybody had a role

C) Your belief that no role would be completely unheard of

To me, this directly contradicts your suspicion of Lyman's claim. What,

exactly

seemed scummy about it to you?

[Sanhora]

Continuing my post about post 649:

First off, back to the paragraph in which you talked about ML's death. Here you mention that the scum would use this kill to set you and BC up and that the other would be killed. So now I wonder, if I had used my ability on one of you and BC, wouldn't the other be killed the next night as well using your logic? Yet the first option is bad to you, while you wanted to be stumped. The only difference would be that the stumped one can still talk, while the stump could have been used against somebody else with the chance of hitting scum if your claim is true.

Talking about your mason claim and if it's true or not, how come you haven't tried to prove you two can day-talk (as you have claimed) after I suggested this?

Lastly, I'd like you and BC to ask the mod if the two of you are confirmed as you claim to be. And yes, with 'you and BC', I mean 'you AND BC'. No exception. Afterwards, please paraphrase the answer (If possible) and let the other confirm it in this game.


@Kikuchiyo
Did you complete your read? If so, who would you have lynched D1 if you were allowed to choose and why?
Also, name the players you thought were scummy D1 with reasons.

@CM
If you looked back, you'd know that I'm waiting for N2 to use my ability. As stated before, too many scummy players who need some interrogations before deciding who to target.
Now to the important part. You state that you're frustrated that players are looking at you and not those who wanted you and BC lynched yesterday. Which you need to explain as you aren't looking at that/those player(s) either.
This post also increases my curiousity to you not trying to prove your day-talking ability as you once state you can do so, without doing so in that post. Why the wait?

@Kikuchiyo
You state that it's 'weird' I didn't use my ability. Place yourself in my shoes. Would you have used this 1-shot ability when you have some suspects who might be able to explain the actions you thought were scummy, but couldn't respond to those because the game was in night phase and who could possibly be a town PR?
Right now, I can look into them and those who really are scummy can still claim before I have the chance to stump him/her.


One more thing before I show my analysis. And after those things, I'm done with catching up.

[Sanhora]

Because before my analysis, we start with a side-post:
THE VOTE COUNT ANALYSIS!!!

And those who participate today, are:
1- The JL-wagon that caused the first L-1.
2- The Budja's wagon that followed after JL's claim.
3- 'The Budja needs to die' wagon.

And as a special guest (You won't believe it), the Voting Trio!

Let's start with 1:

Josh Lyman

(6):

MacavityLock

, imaginality,

Budja

, Fuzzyman,

Chinaman, BloodCovenent

As I know I'm town, we have three green players: JL/Sanhora, ML and Budja.
Two players on this wagon have claimed mason: CM and BC.
Leaving imaginality and FM.

Second wagon, please:

Budja (5): Josh Lyman

, Snow Bunny,

BloodCovenent

, Netopalis, Fuzzyman

Two green players: Budja and JL/Sanhora
One blue: BC
Leaving: SB, Netopalis and FM.

Last bandwagon that remains:

Budja (8): Josh Lyman

, Fuzzyman, Snow_Bunny, DeathSauce,

BloodCovenent, Chinaman

, imaginality,

Budja

Two greenies: JL/Sanhora and Budja
Two blue members: CM and BC
Leaving: FM, SB, DS and imaginality.

As for our special guest, the Voting Trio?
Please welcome

ML, Budja

and imaginality!
First, they enjoyed the JL wagon. But after the claim, they all parted their ways to different players. Budja went after a player he thought was scum and ML did the same after keeping his vote on 'not voting' for a while. It was during this time that imaginality went after lurkers to pressure them and/or with meta reasons (Which I don't know if he checked. Did you? If so, what were these meta reasons and some links to games where you can see this?)
But finally, all three get together with SB again. Though it's mostly ML who stated a case. Imaginality stated though that besides her asking a terrible question, it was his intention to spell out his reasons. We never got to see these reasons, so please show them imaginality.
Soon afterwards, all three were on the BC wagon. This time imaginality uses a PBPA to show his reasons for thinking BC is scummy. And as BC said, PBPA is easily used to make anyone look scummy. Need to look at imaginality's past games to see if this is a tell of him for any allignment or not before concluding anything from this yet.


So what can we conclude?
I don't believe that any L-2 wagon or more is fully town-driven. So for the JL/Sanhora wagon we have four players left: CM, BC, FM and imaginality. And we're lucky as two of them have claimed mason. Meaning this can be divided again.
As for the first important Budja wagon, we have three players left: SB, Netopalis and once again FM.
And last would be the lynch wagon, with once again FM (Third time) and SB, imaginality and the claimed masons for the second time. DS is also on it.

So with the first vote analysis to its end, I have two teams:
FM, SB and/or imaginality on one side and the claimed masons on the other.
There is however one thing that can destroy these two 'teams', so it's not certain yet. I have to wait for one thing.
But I get back with this after I've looked at SB's and imaginality's past games.

[Sanhora]

And finally, the post you've all been waiting for.
I'd have given you some M&M's, but I ate them all already so you have to do it without. I could give you some old popcorn though
But it's time to start:

Fuzzyman

Post 13 really set off my gut. If you want to know why, a reason that includes 'pro-town' sets off my gut due to the way you formulated it. Add the word 'general' and it gets worse.
But can you elaborate on why you think advancing mafia theory is a pro-town thing to do?

About post 162, I'd like to know what scumhunting you've done up until this point according to you.

Post 177 is joining the bandwagon for the sake of joining the popular bandwagon. Mostly his response to Budja's pressure vote reason is scummy as Budja is still voting a player he thoughts was scummy. The other reason Budja gave is basically the same as 'I think that multiple players are scummy, but this one has support from a different player, so vote'. And that is null.

I have no idea what to think of post 227. In one way, FM argues that it's scummy from imaginality to drop his suspicions around Jason (Which weren't there as it was a lurker vote), but on the other hand discredits he imaginality for focusing elsewhere. No matter what imaginality does, FM isn't happy.

I never trust it when a player condems a V/LA (Post 310). It shows he's using everything he can get.

Chinaman

Regardng post 63, can you explain why AtE is scummy according to you if the reason isn't mentioned in that post?
Also a question, of whom could JL have been suspicious at this time and why?
Last would be his 'Die to make this a happier place no matter your allignment' sentence. In this case it's even worse than a policy lynch as you can actually do something about what you didn't like.

As for post 89, it's interesting to see how you give yourself a way out by stating that you think Budja is scummy, but that you've been wrong before.
Scum dig this approach don't they?[/joke based upon post 89]

And then we arrive at post 100. Here, CM gives us the solution to our problem of a slow game: A lynch. It seems somebody is eager for a lynch.
Another thing would be where he uses a RL argument. Unless you know how he lives and what he does (If this is the case, then tell) this is just scummy as you can't know if his life is busier or not.

Post 121 is pointed out for a few different reasons. First of all, lining up lynches. I'd also like to know why you wanted to hear other players their opinion on JL's claim.
Also, it seems in this post that you don't like it when players say 'Player B is town if Player A is town'. So why did you connect three players with each other?

Post 239 is just bad. A 1-shot stump is almost the same as a 1-shot vig, except with a stumper the targeted player can still talk. In this post you are arguing that a 1-shot stumper is anti-town and if I didn't know better, I'd say that you called this ability a scum ability. If this was the case, we must tell all the mods who have used a 1-shot vig as town powerrole how wrong they have been.
Anyway, to summarise:
A stumped player is dead, but can still talk. So he can't use an ability he has and he can't vote, but he can still talk. And he can't be killed as he's already counted as dead.
P.S. The mod didn't think of this role himself, so don't accuse him of smoking crack.

Gut activated due to the last sentence of the second paragraph of post 277.

Post 289 is just aweful. Lynching somebody for thinking he has a bad powerrole. This is even worse than a policy lynch as the role we're talking about is a 1-shot stumper.
And once again, you're making connections. I remember you had some troubles about that earlier on, was it not?

BloodCovenent

In post 93, you stated that SB wasn't scummy for thinking that voting for No-Lynch is scummy as she didn't vote FM after he made the NL vote. Yet, this is because she had already random voted him. If you look back, you can see that she asked for more FM votes after he voted NL. Do you still stand that she's not scummy for it and why?

I only mention post 97, because I disagree with it. Look back at post 13 and note the 'general'.

Post 158 = Hypocrite. Should I say more?
Same goes for post 240.

Locke Lamora/Kikuchiyo

Post 108 shows a serious case of trying to appear active and scumhunting, while he's not. Some people can actually forget things earlier. His question around it (I'm mostly talking about 'Why did you forget?') is just too fake.

Post 261. Scum Locke needs to learn how to take a stance. At least he understands that by asking the town for opinions, he can adapt his to the 'correct' one. (First paragraph) And when he takes a stance, he's not fighting for it. (Second paragraph)

Netapolis

Post 141 confuses me >.< Can you rephrase it?

And I'd like to know why you didn't like Budja's 'parroting' (See post 168/169 for the best example)

Post 288 also shows setting up a lynch.

Faraday and co

As said before, post 225 isn't true (From Jason).

Post 251 seems as if Dana chooses between the two biggest bandwagons. No scumhunting showed from our dear friend.

And post 292 shows Dana's slip. Please watch the following:
'Even if Josh Lyman is telling the truth, he's too dangerous for

me

to keep around. I don't want anyone to have that kind of power. That's why my vote stays on him.'
Scum sure know how to be selfish.
Add the bad reason for wanting to keep that vote, but if he's scum I can understand it completely.


And we'll be having a short break. Hopefully I'll see you tomorrow, but the chance is bigger that it has to wait till friday.
Note for myself, posted up till Post 310.
Need to look at SB and FM again in this game.
Need to look at SB and imaginality in past games.

[Netopalis]

Post 141: BC said that Imaginality's answering of why I thought that the stumping target would flip was spoon-feeding me an answer. Post 141 is me expressing my surprise that he would honestly think that I would *need* to be spoon-fed an answer, given that Lyman had already answered the question.

Budja's Parroting: My problem with Budja early on was that he would basically latch on to whatever argument everybody else was making and agree to it. In fact, until China's claim, I really don't think that he put forth any of his own suspicions - he just suspected the people that other suspected for the reasons that other people suspected them. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) In my experience, scum do this a lot because it prevents them from having to stick their own neck on the line.

Post 288: Not really setting up a lynch - if you want to attack me for setting up a lynch, use my statement that I wanted to look heavily into SB today rather than this one. My argument here was trying to explain why BC's theory about Lyman was invalid. He stated that there was practically no way that Lyman would be able to confirm himself that night, so we should just go ahead and lynch him. I disagreed, calling that logic crap for the reasons outlined in my post. My goal was not to set Lyman up for a D2 lynch, it was to prevent a claimed power role from being lynched D1. This is, however, why so many people are rather shocked that you didn't use your stumping ability.

[kikuchiyo]

Sanhora: I already posted what I thought we should be doing today. I also posted yesterday as to who my suspects were until my computer kept me from logging on(or was it the site?). As I delve through rereads I will post thoughts. Question to you: Why didn't you stump

me

last night? You seem to have a pretty clear cut idea in your head of what you think my alignment is. Makes little sense to not use a vig attempt if you are prepared to pursue someone so vehemently right off the bat. When I have a town power role I generally use it early and often. I am from the school of thought that vig attempts available on night 0 should be used as it improves the mathematical odds of town winning the game. You had no guarantee of survival, so you basically took a chance at pissing away a vig attempt. Your power is as useful as an investigation. So you didn't use it because you were worried about stopping someone elses power. Kind of dumb if you ask me. Kind of why I think we should be looking for anyone buddying you yesterday.

[Chinaman]

I will get to questions sent my way when I have a little more time, but for now, I just wanted to get a few things out there.

First off,

Unvote

Sanhora's recent posts are, imo, very good scum hunting. I especially enjoyed p663. I also say that I have to agree that I also do not believe that the wagons mentioned were completely town driven as well.

That being said, I will get to your other posts when I have a little more time.

As for the possible scum in this game, the list below is mine and BC's list of possible scum. We have the advantage of knowing one more person who isn't scum than the rest of you, but buying into BC and I's claim, you all (read town) have the advantage of knowing TWO more town players than I or BC (again, if you're town). I honestly think scum not killing myself or BC last night was their complete and utter downfall. The only reason I can fathom for this is to try and set us up today as a possible scum team instead of our claimed town team.

As for proving we have daytalk ability, you all are correct. It doesn't prove we are town unfortunately. All it proves is that part of what I'm saying is a fact. You will have to make the judgment call whether or not you believe the rest. I can't/haven't proven it yet because the only way I see of being able to do so is by talking to BC in our personal thread, coming up with a list of questions and answers for one another, and posting them in rapid succession with little to no time in between. In order to confirm for a fact that we didn't just come up with this last night as scum night talk, we will need one other person to be around to give us a random topic to ask/answer a question about. By that I mean, let's say Sanhora is around and tells us to ask/answer a question about starwars through our daytalk ability. I think the possibility of us coming up with that same topic last night (if we were scum) would be realistically impossible.

Now for BC and I's list of possible scum. I highlight Sanhora for 2 reasons. One, I think his/her (don't know which you are) recent posts are some really good scumhunting and as a claimed town PR, I now think he/she should indeed be a later looked at lynch. Not because I suddenly like that we have no stump today and his/her explanation of why, but because it's a claim of a power role. Net is also highlighted due to his VT claim and as I can see from our kills, we have 2 dead VT's so my thoughts about there being few VT's in a themed game are out the window. No matter how the following convo goes, those not highlighted are the only ones I think would be the best lynch for the town to make.

Faraday
Snow_Bunny
DeathSauce
Fuzzyman
imaginality
kikuchiyo

Sanhora

Netopalis

Now, due to mostly in part by Sanhora's vote analysis and due to my suspicions from yesterday

Vote: Imaginality

As of right now, I have no idea what roles we have out there for town, but just shooting from the hip, if we had a Cop that had a successful investigation from last night, we could possibly narrow down the above list of 8 down to 6 (the cop and the investigated if the investigation came back town). At this point, I don't think it's worth claiming though. Unless we are unlucky enough to target the Cop or the investigated townie, then I think the cop should wait till we have fewer numbers so that he/she can get at least one more investigation in (kinda a "duh" statement I know). That is if we even have a cop which isn't a for sure thing....but it sure would make things easier.

[Netopalis]

China: First, let me say that what you propose is actually an ingenious thing. I hadn't considered timing to prove daytalking...While it's not a definitive proof, it's quite creative, and I applaud the effort.

However, I'm not following why you're going after Imaginality. To me, he seems to be quite a bit more pro-town than several other players indicted in the vote analysis.

Personally, I'm going to be pushing for Snow_Bunny or Kikuchiyo. While voting pattern analysis is useful, I don't think that it's foolproof. I've seen all-town votes on mislynches several times, and while it doesn't make sense when you sit down and think about it, the mob mentality is quite strong in these games. Often times, townies will latch onto anyone showing the slightest bit of suspicious behavior D1 and run with it. In all honesty, despite the little hiccup with the claim, after Lyman claimed, Budja was always sort of assumed to be the lynch - I really don't think it should be seen as two separate wagons as much as it should be seen as a single delayed wagon.

At any rate, I'm going to elaborate on my S_B/Kikuchiyo reads a bit later. Right now, I'm too busy celebrating now that my first semester's grades are out, but I'll post a bit later tonight.

[DeathSauce]

I don't think a Q&A would do it. The one possible way I see to confirm your daytalk ability is that one of us PMs one of the two of you a word or phrase that is unrelated to this thread. Then the other one would post that word or phrase in the thread, and the person sending the PM could confirm. This is skirting very close to the edge of the rules, but might fly.

In any case, daytalking is irrelevant if someone thinks you are scum you could still be daytalking scum, like I said, it isn't unheard of.

Feeling better about Sanhora. Lack of a stump last night highly reduces my fears of the role being more of a SK-type role.

Vote:Fuzzyman

Mostly for repeatedly calling me a liar about my vote on dana, even though I clearly posted my reasons in my iso post 2. In addition, Fuzzy's iso post 38 is a half-assed PBPA that is chock full of smarmy mischaracterizations of my posts.

Yeah, it's a little OMGUS, but Lynch All Liars is sound gameplay.

[Netopalis]

Also, China, why the backflip on the possibility of Lyman/Sanhora's role being anti-town?

[Faraday]

My top 2 are probably neto and Fuzzy. I think Neto’s unwarranted trying to out the mason partner is scummy, there’s no pro-town motivation for it, especially with a claimed vanilla there who should probably be lynched. Wanting to get more information at that stage is pretty anti-town, a claim should be a last gasp thing and if it’s vanilla the day should end shortly after pretty much.

As for Fuzzyman

- Early no lynch vote that he claimed was for ‘advancing mafia theory’ (not even sure what that means but I don’t buy it), as the only purpose here would be to start a meaningful discussion. The unvote like 2 seconds later means there’s no chance of much coming out of this, and the fact he unvotes uner the slightest bit of pressure is to me scummy.

- Goes from saying he doesn’t like the Josh wagon as anti-town =/= scummy (Josh was doing what anti-town things as opposed to scummy things btw?) from jumping on it b/c Josh refuses to discuss mafia theory. Theory speculation can generally distract from scum-hunting in a game and ‘I’m not a fan of avoiding things simply because I’m bad at them- scum do that to avoid tripping up’ is a bs argument when it comes to theory as most people even as scum don’t lie about theory as they’ll be easily caught out.

- his iso 11 is wrong. Wrong answers is ironic since I don’t like his response. Not being alone in your thinking not mattering to a townie is flat out false, it always makes someone more confident if they’ve someone agreeing with them, to say town don’t think like this is false. And every vote adds pressure not matter L-111 or L-1.

- his Fos in 227 is absurd, either he’s not paying attention, or well he’s not paying attention. Imag’s reasons for his vote were clear, Jason had been lurking and he wanted more content, obviously the replacement would solve a lot of this thus the FOS makes no sense. And the Josh role discussion was becoming tedious in all honesty.

- other things of note seem a genuine lack of scum-hunting. He seemed happy to ride the budja wagon to completion but never really did much apart from that. General lack of scum-hunting etc.


I can haz cases.
I was kinda hoping for fuzzy to post before I posted my case but meh, there's the reasons I think he's the most likely scum.

Sanhora I checked jason's posting history and this game had his last post on the site, I think it's possible he just left as his other games were in the earlier stages as far as I can tell.

[Netopalis]

Faraday: With all due respect, I believe that my questions to Chinaman regarding his claim were warranted. Even if you disagree with the reasons, I would hope that you would understand them. Here was my thought process:

1) Chinaman was extremely scummy in my book. He made desperate arguments which tended to grasp at straws, continued attacking a claimed power role, accused people because they claimed VT and he felt that there were no VTs in a theme game and generally played in an anti-town fashion.

2) Unprompted, Chinaman claims Mason, revealing no partner, and stating no good reason for his claim. I, for one, am mystified by it. Why on earth would he claim this, unless it was to capitalize on confirmed townie status as scum?

3) The only reason that Masons are practically unlynchable is that they have partners who can confirm them. Therefore, it is an extremely convenient non-pressured claim from scum, as they can simply vaguely say that they are a mason without providing a partner.

4) Interestingly enough, he claims my

other

top suspect as a mason partner. I'm not wanting to push for their lynch now....but I do think that we should take a

serious

look at Chinaman and BC if we don't get a good lynch in within the next 2-3 days.

My point is that, under ideal circumstances, asking for a Mason's partner is not ideal play, given the circumstances surrounding the claim, I think it was fully warranted. I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around exactly why he chose to do this. It wasn't to save BC, as Budja was at L-1 at the time, and the only thing which derailed that was his claim.

[Netopalis]

EBWODP: Another thing you should consider in re: the VT claim is the circumstances surrounding it. The only reason that I claimed was to dispel a seriously wrong argument that Chinaman had advanced several times - that there were no vanilla townies in this game. He was using this as a reason for Budja's lynch, and I felt that given the number of times that he had made this assertion, it would be best to nip it in the bud before it was brought up again and again. If you need references to posts where he makes this assertion, I'll be glad to quote them a bit later.

[Snow_Bunny]

My thoughts for now: I believe China's mason claim. I'm still suspicious of Net and Fuzzy. I was suspicious of Imag based on a link with Mac, but as Mac turned town, those suspicious have lessened.

Vote: Net